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Myxie Tryxle · **08-05-2013, 06:14 PM**

As for bombs, that's a pretty nasty thing. Sometimes it's hard to tell who the villain is until they blow you up. This apparently happened to the RPG club at UCI. I don't play in their LARP, but one year a player saved up all his influence for the final game of the year and used it to firebomb the LARP, killing half the player characters. By the rules, it was legal, and he moved away before the next fall leaving lots of people angry and nearly killing the LARP (which has died at least once before to be resurrected with a new system/setting a few years later).

Naunet · **08-05-2013, 06:19 PM**

(08-05-2013, 06:14 PM)Callipygian Wrote: As for bombs, that's a pretty nasty thing.

The things with bombs is they're generally used as a cheap and easy way to "attack" or otherwise cause disruption. There's rarely any actual description of the bomb itself - its yield, what type, how it's triggered, etc - and comes paired with such scintillating descriptions as "Shadow Lord pulls a bomb from his coat and throws it into the crowd."

Okay... Good for you, Shadow Lord!

Sarantali · **08-05-2013, 06:22 PM**

(08-05-2013, 04:22 PM)Ildur Wrote:
(08-05-2013, 04:03 PM)Koren Wrote: Which is to say; if you know someone is legitimately evil and acting against you and you have any sort of proof behind this... why wouldn't you tell an authority to really look into it?

There are a number of ways to handwave it. Lack of evidence, is one. Coherent villains are those that dance in the edge of legality and those who obfuscate their villainy well. Maybe your character knows that elezen on the other table is a necromancer who profanates graves to further his experiments. But maybe you have no proof of it to give to the authorities: yes, you could tell them anyway, but then the Law might not work properly: investigators could be bribed, perhaps there's no good protocol to find a grave digger besides 'let's put a watch on the graveyard'. Maybe this villain is smart and knows when and where to strike.
There are also more mundane and selfish reasons: maybe your character is stubborn and wants to punch the necromancer himself. Or maybe he doesn't trust the authorities to do their work.

On a more meta level, you can handwave it with 'that would be no fun'. Roleplaying is collaborative storytelling, and making the villain be defeated by the authorities off-screen is kind of...well, not particularly exciting.

Whatever you do, though, you have to keep OOC communication with the villain. Know that they are planning, and discuss the conclusions of the engagements (be them physical or magical battles, or a battle of wits) to settle if the events that took place would call the attention of the NPC authorities and, if that is so, how each participant (including these off-screen authorities) will react and change the plot.

But all of those plot contrivances have consequences.

In a "normal" situation you can't usually tell or get help because the villain isn't a PC that is around a lot. So, again SIDE characters who are villains for stories, etc? That's fine and doesn't qualify for this -- this is for main character or persistent groups which are villain themed.

If for some reason the authorities don't work as a solution in a story... due to incompetence, not believing the PC, etc. That's now established in that story. That means in all further stories the authorities are incompetent. If I start to tell another story with my character I can't realistically say the investigators can help me and if someone else who's been interacting with this group is expecting my PC to go to the authorities? It's... almost never going to happen. If I'm watching a story between X and Y and X is very obviously letting a villain Y go about their way? My character is not going to trust X to know what they're doing upon seeing that unfold.

Now, of course, there's exceptions. Maybe your character X of course happens in stories -- maybe the villain is your dad (my story actually!), or maybe your villain knows things about you, but, that's a SPECIFIC situation. Villain guilds and organizations tend to make said nefarious characters first so they're not really built in with that sort of thing.

Maybe the villain is smart and knows where to strike has a corollary: the opposing PC is requested to not react to certain things in this story. Again, that's fine if the thing is all worked out and this isn't a villain who's around very much so again the option to just go around the corner, knock on their door and ask about their villainy isn't realistic... but, the problem with a LOT of PC villains is that they kind of require... well... railroading. Which is fine if you've signed up for it -- no one minds travelling a railroad if the scenery is nice.... but as someone who's been that player of "No, you can't do that... or that.... or that! Just wait until I'm done as a villain and watch how much horror I can cause!"

It's all your style of play, of course, but villiainy is something that has more consequences than a lot of people realize. How and what happens goes BEYOND play. I've seen people be upset that THE DAY AFTER the guild ran a storyline wherien someone was tortured the character tortured was sullen, surly and withdrawn instead of participatory in a guild event to introduce and meet new people because "The day wasn't supposed to be about them". I've seen people frustrated because they wanted their plot to go in one direction to resolve unaware they had literally TAUGHT the people in their plot that this method wouldn't work because it failed two times before and now everyone was frustrated. It's just... a very careful thing is all.

Freyar · **08-05-2013, 06:25 PM**

I'll be trying to put together a PC Villain for the most part, though he won't be overtly as such. Lawful Evil, in such a way that manipulation will be the core of his capabilities. However, one the most difficult things to get over as a "villain" in roleplaying is that nobody wants their sense of agency interrupted by another player. Force tends to be hated, and that makes it really difficult to do anything truly "evil".

As far as playing "yeah, that's evil" cards, it'll be rare and fully discussed with the people I'm involved with.

Evie · **08-05-2013, 06:56 PM**

Playing an evil can be difficult. Though I've experience some really good Villian/Evil RP in other games. I'm generally an anything goes type of RPer so that can lead to some really crazy, interesting, and in depth villainy when you can find someone who's willing to allow almost anything to happen to their characters.

One of the good things with the game I play now is that you can buy character renaming. This is nice because it opens up character death, because instead of having to role a new character should an old one die in RP, you can just pay a little for a rename and voila, you can use your already leveled character and give it a completely new backstory. You can even go so far as toÂ use the barbershop in order to modify the characters look too.

Myxie Tryxle · **08-05-2013, 07:05 PM**

Has Square Enix said anything about renaming, race changing, or appearance changing? I know I've seen something about character transferring becoming available in a few months, but not sure if any of these others have been mentioned.

Ildur · **08-05-2013, 07:41 PM**

(08-05-2013, 06:22 PM)Koren Wrote: If for some reason the authorities don't work as a solution in a story... due to incompetence, not believing the PC, etc. That's now established in that story. That means in all further stories the authorities are incompetent.

Only if you want to. You could play it as that, in the new story (or, heck, even during the course of the same history), the authorities changed somewhat. To give a very silly but obvious example: the sheriff in town was changed and the one in charge now is competent. It's something you have to decide OOCly with the 'full-time' villain, though. Unless you want to make the authorities into alts, in which case you have to talk with the villain anyway to let him know that there'll be a group of semi-competent NPCs helping the good guys.

(08-05-2013, 06:22 PM)Koren Wrote: (...) My character is not going to trust X to know what they're doing upon seeing that unfold.

Maybe the villain is smart and knows where to strike has a corollary: the opposing PC is requested to not react to certain things in this story. Again, that's fine if the thing is all worked out and this isn't a villain who's around very much so again the option to just go around the corner, knock on their door and ask about their villainy isn't realistic... but, the problem with a LOT of PC villains is that they kind of require... well... railroading. Which is fine if you've signed up for it -- no one minds travelling a railroad if the scenery is nice.... but as someone who's been that player of "No, you can't do that... or that.... or that! Just wait until I'm done as a villain and watch how much horror I can cause!"

I'm not sure what you mean with knocking on their door and asking about their villainy. I guess you are refering how I said you have to ask the villain player about it. You do that in Out-Of-Character mode: you ask the player, not the character. Communication is important in this cases, so you have to go OOC when discussing details about the plot or planning the story. Otherwise, crap will happen.

About the railroading and the corollary: You are assuming villains have to railroad to work properly. I have the feeling the villains you have roleplayed with were just terrible. Which is, I admit, a problem I have run with full-time villainous groups. But in those cases, you just discuss the railroading (OOCly, of course), hoping they'll get better...or you just drop the storyline, if you are sufficiently fed off and you don't think there's any chance of salvaging it.

I'm, however, a bit unsure of what you mean by railroading. I know the technical roleplayer term: it's when the Dungeon Master forces the players to follow a very narrow path to move forward in the plot. I'm unsure of what you mean, though, because, for what you said, it seems to me you are calling 'railroading' to certain story details that are there to make the villain work as such. For example, in the example of the necromancer, that he's avoiding guarded graveyards. This isn't railroading: it's the character reacting. What would be railroading would be if he told you 'you can't put a guard there', or him going 'I still managed to dig out another body!'. Though the second is more godmodding than railroading.

(08-05-2013, 06:22 PM)Koren Wrote: It's all your style of play, of course, but villiainy is something that has more consequences than a lot of people realize. How and what happens goes BEYOND play. I've seen people be upset that THE DAY AFTER the guild ran a storyline wherien someone was tortured the character tortured was sullen, surly and withdrawn instead of participatory in a guild event to introduce and meet new people because "The day wasn't supposed to be about them". I've seen people frustrated because they wanted their plot to go in one direction to resolve unaware they had literally TAUGHT the people in their plot that this method wouldn't work because it failed two times before and now everyone was frustrated. It's just... a very careful thing is all.

This is all stuff you have to solve OOCly. Nobody's a telepath on the internet. We cannot fully communicate with our fellow roleplayers purely by in-character means. That's just asking situations like the ones you have described to happen.
You have to drop character for a moment and whisper them, form a party and discuss things in chat, use private messages or a forum. Whatever. But communication is the key. Otherwise, things will start falling apart and nobody will be able to hold the thing together.

Evie · **08-05-2013, 08:02 PM**

(08-05-2013, 07:05 PM)Callipygian Wrote: Has Square Enix said anything about renaming, race changing, or appearance changing? Â I know I've seen something about character transferring becoming available in a few months, but not sure if any of these others have been mentioned.

I'm not sure honestly about that. I know there's been talk about a barber shop, but that maybe limited appearance changes. So it may not be something that can happen right off the bat. But from what I understand Square Enix seems really good about putting in things into the game that the players request. So maybe it's something that could be suggested for later patches. If the company is as willing to listen to its subscriber base as I've heard, it's simply another thing that makes this game so appealing.

LandStander · **08-05-2013, 09:37 PM**

I have personally played characters who probably could be seen as villains since I first started RPing, which technically was not that long ago. I think the trick is to not make them over the top. I feel like I did a great job in GW2 as I made my character a lovable villain. She had enemies, but also a good chunk of friends, even though the only reason she made friends was to use them when she needed. She did things because she loved chaos and though she had huge plans, some that were definitely not ever achievable (such as destroying all of a particular race in the world), but she kept busy by destroying the bond between allies, friends, and just causing trouble in general.

Most of the time it was not her direct actions that did this, but hiring people to do things which allowed her to stay mostly behind the scenes. This made it easier for other people to take the fall if they were ever caught.Â Of course it did not always go as planned so I made her a bit of a comical character as well as to give her an escape route when her plans didn't go as well...planned. To sum it up, she was an awful person, but she was still human and had emotions just like anyone else would. I personally have not found a way to port her over to FF, but hopefully I will be able to figure that out one day.Â

I guess what I am trying to say that is that its definitely possible to have a main as a villain. I think most people may think that a villain has to show no emotions or never sometimes feel remorseful for some of their actions, but that does not necessarily have to be true. Magneto from the X-Men has been mostly portrayed as a villain, but really he is just trying to save himself and others like him from being annihilated by following a more militant "kill or be killed" logic. Sephiroth is another good villain. He was a pretty stand up guy then he found out all this stuff and lost it. I think a good villain can have emotions, they have probably loved and lost just like we all have, they have just choose a very negative way of living their lives.

Fiona Swift · **08-06-2013, 04:07 PM**

I feel that player controlled (PC) villains do a far better job than NPC villains. The NPC villain is there for the main story or side story but they end up locked into the same pattern.

A PC villain can do what he or she wishes and create any event they wish to. PC characters are also capable of changing emotional states. There is no harm in a character whom normally is good has a sudden change of character reacting to an event in a very emotional way. Suddenly they went from being a hero to now wanting revenge for that moment and perhaps might even turn on their own friends in blind rage.

While this doesn't constitute a solid villain, it adds drama and a sudden threat. Having a main for a Villain will require some very strong dedication and understanding that you might not be well liked. However the Rp community should also be reasonable and understand when said person is in the Duty Finder (queuing for dungeons) odds are they are going in there to level up / get gear and not be villainous.

RP is also very random. You can be heading in one direction and then suddenly something else happens and things change. Okay the plot suddenly took a detour, go with it. Communication is key but also spontaneity can also end up in quite a lot of fun, especially with villainous actions.

AFriendOfAFriend · **08-06-2013, 04:59 PM**

Having played a villain in the past, the problem boils down to "It's fun, but..."

The character in question wasn't a Machiavellian villain, or anti-hero or what have you. I played a straight up chaotic evil, nihilistic psycho/sociopath who did things simply because they seemed amusing at the time (note: This was several years before the Dark Knight and Heath Ledger's Joker would make such a character a bit too cliche). It was a good time while it lasted, and I still look back on him fondly.

The problem was that, in actual interactive RP, he was totally ineffectual. You can't be spontaneously evil/murderous in a world filled with characters who aren't yours. You can't build up a secret, grand master plan to conquer the world because somewhere along the way you're going to have to talk to the people you're trying to suppress/destroy to make sure they're okay with X happening to Y at Z time. The outcome of events are known before the curtain rises, fights are scripted, et cetera and so on. Most of your villainy will be relegated to forum posts and trying your best to be threatening in chat.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from being the bad guy, but just know that it's more work than it looks like on paper. It's a constant dance between playing the character the way you'd intended and not crossing the line into godmodding. It's balance, compromise, and (alot of the time) frustration. If you're willing to put in the work it can be a very fun, rewarding experience, but it's never as simple as "I'm evil! Fear me!" You have to remember that nine times out of ten the good guys win, and you can't go around killing the cutie to get your point across.

LandStander · **08-09-2013, 12:50 AM**

So this is sort of on topic and I didn't want to start a new thread. I noticed a decent amount of us want to play a villain or alt that is a villain and I was thinking of how we could possible unite our villains together so instead of just causing trouble for one group (which would more than likely be our respective FC's and LS') we could cause trouble for everyone.

Now it took me a bit to think about how and why villains would unite as they normally tend to be pretty selfish and do their own villain thing. Then I remembered there was that cult back in 1.0, the Lambs of Dalamud, who kidnapped people and used them to lure adventurers into traps because they thought sacrifices would attract Menphina's Loyal Hound (I am guessing this will be Cerberus one day, or at least I hope so).

I was thinking that cults and religious things like that are the easiest way to bring people together. I was wondering if anyone would be willing to start some kind of villainous cult with me on the Balmung server (as that is where I will be playing) just to cause conflict in the world and be something that could give RPers a PC to fight with.

Of course it would all start out as secret, but maybe as people allowed their characters to get kidnapped (probably not killed as a lot of people wouldn't be okay with that) then the cults actions would become more and more known. And seeing as most of us will be playing these villains as our alts we probably wouldn't care so much about character death (I'm not saying that everyone would die, but it adds a bit to the drama).Â

Or we could even start some group that are secretly all Garleans and have infiltrated Eorzea and are trying to bring it down from the inside.Â

So would anyone be interested in this idea or would like to discuss this maybe further?

Evie · **08-12-2013, 10:26 PM**

(08-09-2013, 12:50 AM)LandStander Wrote: So would anyone be interested in this idea or would like to discuss this maybe further?

I would be interested in participating, whether with my villain alt character or with my other non-villainous character.

Reppu · **08-12-2013, 10:48 PM**

It's been noted in the thread before, but I'll tip my hat into this as well;

A good 'Player' Villain goes in with two things well understood.

1) Your purpose is to further enhance the 'heroes', be it through triumph or drama, hopefully both.

2) Your purpose is to ultimately lose.

While some will disagree on this, I feel my experience is enough to warrant my opinion. If anyone disagrees, that's fine. You will not change my opinion and I will not argue with you, because I simply do not care to.

If you do not approach with both in your arsenal, you will fail as a villain. If your mindset is geared into 'winning', you have failed as hard as you possibly can. While there are examples of the villain ultimately 'winning' in the end, this is not really a possibility in an MMO. And even so, this is done so rarely because it is very rarely successful.

Even rarer, in truth, is a properly-done PC-driven villain, because more often than not they fail to have both 1) and 2) in their mindset. This is when you have the overbearing individual who insists on their victory above all else, or insists on developing their character above the heroes.

This is not to say, as noted, your villain cannot win battles. You just must, at the end of the day, accept that you are meant to lose the war. You will be defeated. You will be killed, mysteriously vanish, or be converted.

Do not try to be one of those rare villains in literature that comes out ahead. Not only does this show a massive lack of experience in good storytelling, but it immediately puts the persona of a Mary Sue upon your head. If the 'heroes' empower your victories, triumphs, and so on? That is something else. But never, ever, try to force your victory.

As well, do not feel your villain cannot become developed. Your goal, in the end, is to leave a lasting impression, an impact that will not be so easily swept over. The best villains are the ones that do not need 'death', 'destruction', or 'anarchy' en-masse to be remembered.

When it comes to villainous 'groups', please be the one who backstabs the others. Evil is not fond of evil, and rarely do they share common goals. You, yes YOU, are number one. They are stepping stones. Crush them beneath your feet, because they are a greater threat than any hero will ever be.

Villainous groups will also need to make sure they have the noted mentality as well. Do not try to win the war, that is not why you exist. You exist to enrich the story of others, and to empower further exploits of grand heroism. You are meant to bring about an epic drama, with out falling into disastrous, overused stereotypes.

Go in ready to go out in a blaze of glory.

Now, on the flip side? Heroic PCs need to acknowledge that you need to be willing to lose the battle every so often, although a proper villain player will ensure nothing will happen with out your consent as well. The goal is to make a story. While you will ultimately be the victor in the very end,Â you should not be invincible, or end the tale with no scars.

A proper heroic PC player must be humble, realizing when the time is right for one of their losses to take place. They must not let the ultimate end of being the victor get to their head, as a grand epic does not take place when he or she that is invincible, curb-stompeths.

The Hero and Villain relationship is very delicate, and certain steps must be planned out. When properly executed, the impression it will have on all parties involved, will be worth the time spent.

In the end, this is all just my opinion. I've run into far too many would-be villains that aim to come out on top. Aim to be the 'winner'. This is unhealthy in many forms for roleplaying, especially in something as hard to force into shape as an MMO.

To both sides; be reasonable. Know your goals. Remember the outcome, but do not meta the outcome.

Imsey · **08-13-2013, 08:03 PM**

(08-09-2013, 12:50 AM)LandStander Wrote: So would anyone be interested in this idea or would like to discuss this maybe further?

I'd certainly be happy and interested to discuss something like this (if people still are). The prospect of creating a villainous alt is appealing, and it gives more shape to a Lala character I'd sort of imagined but couldn't find a good reason to really develop.

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Villians and RP conflict

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes