RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

FreelanceWizard · **08-28-2013, 12:30 PM**

(08-28-2013, 11:49 AM)Vinter Wrote: That brings up an interesting question. How do you think the familial relations look among the miqo'te?
They're not exactly monogamous creatures, and according to the lore the rites and rituals regarding who can and cannot be a Nunh is to ensure that the offspring are of the finest stock. That seems very detached and practical. It doesn't sound like love ever enters into it. Not romantic love anyway.

Could it be that since the Nunh is just a breeding male, he is expected to sire many children, and thus would be too busy to take part in raising any of them? And so, perhaps strong familial bonds would only exist between the mother and the child, and not the father and the child.

So... we do get to see a tribal miqo'te group in game, and their approach to breeding does seem to be fairly practical (there's a strong implication via NPC dialogue that the hunter females plan their "couplings" with the nunh). When you consider that the intended goal of the cultural construct is to create the strongest, most adapted offspring, I suspect romance doesn't play a huge role. Then again, since the nunh is the strongest, most adept male of the tribe and has proven such through battle, it'd be to them like getting to bed a rock star while at the same time doing a great service to your tribe. It may not be romantic in a Western (or city-state culture) sense, but to the miqo'te, it may serve a similar cultural purpose.

In terms of the nunh's relationship with his children, there's a number of different points of view on this; I don't think there's enough lore to know what the norm is, frankly. If the tribe's territory is large, the nunh likely has to travel a fair amount and probably has a weak relationship with his children. If the territory is small (say, a village), the relationship may well be closer, but as he likely has many children, it'd be more diffuse. There's probably a lot of approaches you can take with your miqo'te's relationship to his or her father and still be within lore.

For what it's worth, L'yhta had a fine, but distant relationship with her father; her mother bore quite a few children to him, so she saw him more than other miqo'te in their tribe branch might have. Nevertheless, the requirements of his, ah, "duties" tended to produce relatively less attachment, which is why she ended up finding a substitute father figure in her older brother.

Mr.Bear · **08-29-2013, 02:41 AM**

(08-28-2013, 11:49 AM)Vinter Wrote:
(08-28-2013, 09:55 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: "Why is this random miqo'te making insinuations about the heritage of my mother, and suggesting that she's a prostitute?"
That brings up an interesting question. How do you think the familial relations look among the miqo'te?
They're not exactly monogamous creatures, and according to the lore the rites and rituals regarding who can and cannot be a Nunh is to ensure that the offspring are of the finest stock. That seems very detached and practical. It doesn't sound like love ever enters into it. Not romantic love anyway.

Could it be that since the Nunh is just a breeding male, he is expected to sire many children, and thus would be too busy to take part in raising any of them? And so, perhaps strong familial bonds would only exist between the mother and the child, and not the father and the child.

in the opinion of my character regarding his tribe, tribe -is- family. There exists different families within that tribe ofcourse if it's large enough but he feels the tribe is a large family of its own. He's also very dedicated in caring for those under his wing, much like how an Alpha male would. (Nunh can be largely compared to those, except they do not tend to be -the- actual leaders)

The reason they survive and stand as strong as they do is because they stand together. The Tribe is a place of family and friends for him, a place where you can trust and someone can get the helping hand he might need now and then without being exploited for it, without expecting something in return.

Thus he may be close with many in the Tribe, but especially caring of those under his wing. I would say it depends what kind of Nunh you have, the title at face value might be very..practical, but a Nunh can make it more emotionally invested as well. In doing so he's likely to gain more too, as his females might be more loyal.

C'io Behkt · **08-29-2013, 04:34 AM**

(08-28-2013, 12:30 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: So... we do get to see a tribal miqo'te group in game, and their approach to breeding does seem to be fairly practical (there's a strong implication via NPC dialogue that the hunter females plan their "couplings" with the nunh). When you consider that the intended goal of the cultural construct is to create the strongest, most adapted offspring, I suspect romance doesn't play a huge role. Then again, since the nunh is the strongest, most adept male of the tribe and has proven such through battle, it'd be to them like getting to bed a rock star while at the same time doing a great service to your tribe. It may not be romantic in a Western (or city-state culture) sense, but to the miqo'te, it may serve a similar cultural purpose.

The strongest, most adept male of the tribe may still not be that impressive given that tribal miqo'te women seem to be much stronger, more capable warriors. Instead of to a rock star, I'd liken it more to a Roman noblewoman taking an accomplished gladiator to bed. He may be the best within his caste, but she's still his better. Plus, in Forgotten Springs, you see the miqo'te there talking about how the "Nuhn is a sop who is slacking in his duties," suggesting great disregard for him. "But that -mane-" replies the other miqo'te. This tells me that the objectification of breeding males exists also and may even be more prevalent given the non-romantic, highly eugenic nature of the union.

(08-29-2013, 02:41 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: in the opinion of my character regarding his tribe, tribe -is- family. There exists different families within that tribe of course if it's large enough but he feels the tribe is a large family of its own. He's also very dedicated in caring for those under his wing, much like how an Alpha male would. (Nunh can be largely compared to those, except they do not tend to be -the- actual leaders)

The reason they survive and stand as strong as they do is because they stand together. The Tribe is a place of family and friends for him, a place where you can trust and someone can get the helping hand he might need now and then without being exploited for it, without expecting something in return.

Thus he may be close with many in the Tribe, but especially caring of those under his wing. I would say it depends what kind of Nunh you have, the title at face value might be very..practical, but a Nunh can make it more emotionally invested as well. In doing so he's likely to gain more too, as his females might be more loyal.

Again I have the same problem here in terms of mentioning loyalty. I think it is the nuhn who is loyal to the tribe, not the females who are loyal to him. If anything, the females are loyal to the tribe and never to the nuhn. In my opinion, loyalty to a demagogue nuhn over the tribe is an aberration, not the norm; it's a concept I've used in my own character's history and the reason she left to roam the world.

I agree with the idea that the tribe is family, but disagree that the male takes care of the females. I think it is the females who defend and take care of the males. I also don't believe females "belong" to a single or particular nuhn. My basis for this is in the cultural convention of naming children after the siring male rather than the female -- it suggests that a single female can give birth to multiple children of different fathers. In a case where more than one nuhn exist, I expect the choice falls with her, not him.

As usual, my comments push forward my opinion that Seeker culture is matriarchal and not patriarchal, so I understand that, while -I- believe my convictions are based on solid canon and deduction, this view is not in the majority. I'm hoping to sway more of you in my direction of thought, and I hope you forgive me if my character's experiences and views on the matter do not fit with yours. Of course, I will do you the same courtesy, Smile

.

Mr.Bear · **08-29-2013, 06:14 AM**

(08-29-2013, 04:34 AM)C Wrote:
(08-28-2013, 12:30 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: So... we do get to see a tribal miqo'te group in game, and their approach to breeding does seem to be fairly practical (there's a strong implication via NPC dialogue that the hunter females plan their "couplings" with the nunh). When you consider that the intended goal of the cultural construct is to create the strongest, most adapted offspring, I suspect romance doesn't play a huge role. Then again, since the nunh is the strongest, most adept male of the tribe and has proven such through battle, it'd be to them like getting to bed a rock star while at the same time doing a great service to your tribe. It may not be romantic in a Western (or city-state culture) sense, but to the miqo'te, it may serve a similar cultural purpose.

The strongest, most adept male of the tribe may still not be that impressive given that tribal miqo'te women seem to be much stronger, more capable warriors. Instead of to a rock star, I'd liken it more to a Roman noblewoman taking an accomplished gladiator to bed. He may be the best within his caste, but she's still his better. Plus, in Forgotten Springs, you see the miqo'te there talking about how the "Nuhn is a sop who is slacking in his duties," suggesting great disregard for him. "But that -mane-" replies the other miqo'te. This tells me that the objectification of breeding males exists also and may even be more prevalent given the non-romantic, highly eugenic nature of the union.

(08-29-2013, 02:41 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: in the opinion of my character regarding his tribe, tribe -is- family. There exists different families within that tribe of course if it's large enough but he feels the tribe is a large family of its own. He's also very dedicated in caring for those under his wing, much like how an Alpha male would. (Nunh can be largely compared to those, except they do not tend to be -the- actual leaders)

The reason they survive and stand as strong as they do is because they stand together. The Tribe is a place of family and friends for him, a place where you can trust and someone can get the helping hand he might need now and then without being exploited for it, without expecting something in return.

Thus he may be close with many in the Tribe, but especially caring of those under his wing. I would say it depends what kind of Nunh you have, the title at face value might be very..practical, but a Nunh can make it more emotionally invested as well. In doing so he's likely to gain more too, as his females might be more loyal.

Again I have the same problem here in terms of mentioning loyalty. I think it is the nuhn who is loyal to the tribe, not the females who are loyal to him. If anything, the females are loyal to the tribe and never to the nuhn. In my opinion, loyalty to a demagogue nuhn over the tribe is an aberration, not the norm; it's a concept I've used in my own character's history and the reason she left to roam the world.

I agree with the idea that the tribe is family, but disagree that the male takes care of the females. I think it is the females who defend and take care of the males. I also don't believe females "belong" to a single or particular nuhn. My basis for this is in the cultural convention of naming children after the siring male rather than the female -- it suggests that a single female can give birth to multiple children of different fathers. In a case where more than one nuhn exist, I expect the choice falls with her, not him.

As usual, my comments push forward my opinion that Seeker culture is matriarchal and not patriarchal, so I understand that, while -I- believe my convictions are based on solid canon and deduction, this view is not in the majority. I'm hoping to sway more of you in my direction of thought, and I hope you forgive me if my character's experiences and views on the matter do not fit with yours. Of course, I will do you the same courtesy, .

I suppose I wasn't completely clear. I agree completely that females are loyal to the tribe, but there is another loyalty beside that. I'd imagine while females might find a Nuhn suitable, it would be better if that Nuhn did more than just that one "duty" as it were. I mean't "loyalty" in that regard, aka relationships of further respect and care. Family.

"I think it is the females who defend and take care of the males." this is wrong. They are both strong in their own regard but it is not so that males are in need of protection like that. Perhaps it is more true of the moon tribe, as sun females tend to regard those males as rather weak.

" it suggests that a single female can give birth to multiple children of different fathers. In a case where more than one nuhn exist, I expect the choice falls with her, not him."

A female cannot sire with more than one Nunh either, that goes against traditions. The naming can be explained as Nunh can be cast down by Tia at any point in their lives. at that point the females would or might go for that Nunh or another they think more accepable. (as always the choice lies with them. The Nunh must make themselves a attractive and strong choice if they want any females)

That all said and done, I heard that in general there are more females born than males. That might explain why these traditions exist and why you might think females do more in the protection area. They likely do join on most if not all things male do (like hunting) but I don't think, not with the sun tribe atleast, that males are in particular need of protection. It's just a tribe thing to protect all, the males do the same. especially the Nunh I imagine as it is their duty to assure offspring and good offspring.

C'io Behkt · **08-29-2013, 06:46 AM**

(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: I suppose I wasn't completely clear. I agree completely that females are loyal to the tribe, but there is another loyalty beside that. I'd imagine while females might find a Nuhn suitable, it would be better if that Nuhn did more than just that one "duty" as it were. I mean't "loyalty" in that regard, aka relationships of further respect and care. Family.

Ah! In this case, I agree then, Smile

.

(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: "I think it is the females who defend and take care of the males." this is wrong. They are both strong in their own regard but it is not so that males are in need of protection like that. Perhaps it is more true of the moon tribe, as sun females tend to regard those males as rather weak.

This is interesting. Can I ask for where it is stated that the Seeker females view the Keeper males as much weaker? I remember this being mentioned before, but I don't remember where or by whom.

(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: A female cannot sire with more than one Nunh either, that goes against traditions. The naming can be explained as Nunh can be cast down by Tia at any point in their lives. at that point the females would or might go for that Nunh or another they think more accepable. (as always the choice lies with them. The Nunh must make themselves a attractive and strong choice if they want any females)

Where does it say that the female cannot sire with more than one Nuhn? That is information I've never run across.

(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: That all said and done, I heard that in general there are more females born than males. That might explain why these traditions exist and why you might think females do more in the protection area. They likely do join on most if not all things male do (like hunting) but I don't think, not with the sun tribe atleast, that males are in particular need of protection. It's just a tribe thing to protect all, the males do the same. especially the Nunh I imagine as it is their duty to assure offspring and good offspring.

Here as well is information I've never come across. I'm sorry for my scepticism, but I am someone who prefers to view from the source. If true, this is intriguing enough to alter my perspective on the Seekers to accommodate for the information, but I'd need to see it stated from Square directly. If it's not too much trouble, could you cite sources for me please? I'd very much like to read!

Mr.Bear · **08-29-2013, 01:31 PM**

(08-29-2013, 06:46 AM)C Wrote:
(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: I suppose I wasn't completely clear. I agree completely that females are loyal to the tribe, but there is another loyalty beside that. I'd imagine while females might find a Nuhn suitable, it would be better if that Nuhn did more than just that one "duty" as it were. I mean't "loyalty" in that regard, aka relationships of further respect and care. Family.

Ah! In this case, I agree then, .

(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: "I think it is the females who defend and take care of the males." this is wrong. They are both strong in their own regard but it is not so that males are in need of protection like that. Perhaps it is more true of the moon tribe, as sun females tend to regard those males as rather weak.

This is interesting. Can I ask for where it is stated that the Seeker females view the Keeper males as much weaker? I remember this being mentioned before, but I don't remember where or by whom.

(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: A female cannot sire with more than one Nunh either, that goes against traditions. The naming can be explained as Nunh can be cast down by Tia at any point in their lives. at that point the females would or might go for that Nunh or another they think more accepable. (as always the choice lies with them. The Nunh must make themselves a attractive and strong choice if they want any females)

Where does it say that the female cannot sire with more than one Nuhn? That is information I've never run across.

(08-29-2013, 06:14 AM)Mr.Bear Wrote: That all said and done, I heard that in general there are more females born than males. That might explain why these traditions exist and why you might think females do more in the protection area. They likely do join on most if not all things male do (like hunting) but I don't think, not with the sun tribe atleast, that males are in particular need of protection. It's just a tribe thing to protect all, the males do the same. especially the Nunh I imagine as it is their duty to assure offspring and good offspring.

Here as well is information I've never come across. I'm sorry for my scepticism, but I am someone who prefers to view from the source. If true, this is intriguing enough to alter my perspective on the Seekers to accommodate for the information, but I'd need to see it stated from Square directly. If it's not too much trouble, could you cite sources for me please? I'd very much like to read!

I've read these somewhere (I don't pluck them out of my head for the most part) while looking up Miqo'te and how to RP them. Unfortunately I can't find the sources. On that note though I would like your sources for your speculations too then. I know i've read that the keeper tribes tend to be more..matriarchal in leadership atleast. This is not the case for sun ones as far as I know, unless you can prove me different somehow.

I also know i've read somewhere the Sun females tend to value strength in males though, that and the info of how Nunh can generally hold 10 to 50 females each would suggest alongside their territorial behaviour that siring other Nunh is more than a bit disallowed. They are very much described as alpha males except that they don't tend to be leaders as well. It just wouldn't make sense for a Nunh to handle more than a certain amount of females, hence why there are no other Nunh if the tribe is small enough, it would bring conflict. Just as there would be conflict when a female of one Nunh suddenly and randomly decides to go mate with another Nunh, which really doesn't make sense to me to do so.

It is highly destructive to tribe unity to allow such practises, it would go against what the Nunh does first and foremost in that he risks his life by challenging another Nunh to become one, it's not respectfull. But mostly it would breed these conflicts between Nunh that should simply not be and even females would not want to harm the tribe (let alone their family that they might have sired from one Nunh) you should not mistake this for them being the property of a Nunh, but I do think they bind themselves to a Nunh once they have chosen one and indeed mated/accepted eachother. They'll absolutely drop him if he becomes dishonorable and he's not the only Nunh, ofcourse, but in that case it is justified. That Nunh has proven himself to be selfish, weak, and destructive to the tribe, which is their greater loyalty. (unless he is -really- influential but that is another matter. then you are digging into the deeper problems that can tear a tribe apart)

On that point, it would make simple sense that the males of the tribe are quite the warriors themselves. To have such rituals of strength and to assume titles like that. Unless you can point out a clear source yourself that this is quite not true for the sun tribes we'll just have different views on this I think. I did look into that bit about there being more females, that was wrong of me. What -is- true is that there are more females that have moved into eorzian society because they are generally less closed and solitary. But there are still not many (though I imagine a lot of people would RP tribeless Miqo'te anyway, which is fine by me)

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Miqo%27te/Naming this is the cloest I came to a source of sorts. It mentions more than other places

Vinter · **08-29-2013, 02:50 PM**

You both have valid points, and some not so valid points.
When it comes to whether or not the Nunh has an influential position in the tribe, that's up for debate. Their purpose in the tribe is clearly not that of a leader or any sort of authority, and I don't think they would jeopardize their position within the tribe by shirking their duties and withholding sex. Remember, they're not called Alpha males, they're called Breeding males. They're the males who have earned the right and duty to breed. I imagine it sort of like the heavy-weight champion of the world title. It doesn't mean you get to make decisions, or that you're somehow in a priveleged position, it just means you were the best at punching people in the face until they passed out.

But that doesn't make them unimportant.
And I certainly don't agree that they need protection. I think the mere existence of this caste system among males shows that the strength of the males is highly valued. If they weren't able to fend for themselves, I think few females would give them a second glance.

The naming conventions I think is just a practical way of keeping track of which kid belongs to which male. You wouldn't want any accidental inbreeding. It makes sense that a male has a lot of kids, but the females probably only have a few each. So by giving the child the name of the Nunh who sired them, it's easy to keep track of who the child's parents are.

What I do agree with though, is the notion that the females don't hold any particular loyalty to a Nunh, and I'm backing that up by the lore outlining how easy it is for a Tia to replace a Nunh by simply besting him in combat.
The Nunh would then revert to a Tia, and all of the females would now mate with the new Nunh. Surely if they were loyal to him, rather than the tribe, they wouldn't abandon him the moment he lost a fight?

However, I don't think that makes them discardable. Males are supposedly rare. I don't know where I read it but I definitely did. And since the males are key to the continuation of the species, it would make sense for them to be treated as a valuable commodity.
Even if they're not one in a million, you wouldn't want to lose your males unnecessarily. One could speculate that seeker society would have very detailed rules for how and when males could challenge and fight eachother, and strict punishments for anyone who broke the rules.
For instance, if a Nunh felt threatened by a young Tia and attacked him pre-emptively, that would probably go over as well as Frey family wedding.
I'm thinking the challenges are probably quite a ritualized affair.

Mr.Bear · **08-29-2013, 03:06 PM**

(08-29-2013, 02:50 PM)Vinter Wrote: You both have valid points, and some not so valid points.
When it comes to whether or not the Nunh has an influential position in the tribe, that's up for debate. Their purpose in the tribe is clearly not that of a leader or any sort of authority, and I don't think they would jeopardize their position within the tribe by shirking their duties and withholding sex. Remember, they're not called Alpha males, they're called Breeding males. They're the males who have earned the right and duty to breed. I imagine it sort of like the heavy-weight champion of the world title. It doesn't mean you get to make decisions, or that you're somehow in a priveleged position, it just means you were the best at punching people in the face until they passed out.

But that doesn't make them unimportant.
And I certainly don't agree that they need protection. I think the mere existence of this caste system among males shows that the strength of the males is highly valued. If they weren't able to fend for themselves, I think few females would give them a second glance.

The naming conventions I think is just a practical way of keeping track of which kid belongs to which male. You wouldn't want any accidental inbreeding. It makes sense that a male has a lot of kids, but the females probably only have a few each. So by giving the child the name of the Nunh who sired them, it's easy to keep track of who the child's parents are.

What I do agree with though, is the notion that the females don't hold any particular loyalty to a Nunh, and I'm backing that up by the lore outlining how easy it is for a Tia to replace a Nunh by simply besting him in combat.
The Nunh would then revert to a Tia, and all of the females would now mate with the new Nunh. Surely if they were loyal to him, rather than the tribe, they wouldn't abandon him the moment he lost a fight?

However, I don't think that makes them discardable. Males are supposedly rare. I don't know where I read it but I definitely did. And since the males are key to the continuation of the species, it would make sense for them to be treated as a valuable commodity.
Even if they're not one in a million, you wouldn't want to lose your males unnecessarily. One could speculate that seeker society would have very detailed rules for how and when males could challenge and fight eachother, and strict punishments for anyone who broke the rules.
For instance, if a Nunh felt threatened by a young Tia and attacked him pre-emptively, that would probably go over as well as Frey family wedding.
I'm thinking the challenges are probably quite a ritualized affair.

The male thing might have been a lore thing on account for the males of the miqo'te race not having been playable at one point. Thus a lore excuse was created, that seems logical to me.

I agree on the loyalty, but as I said they do value the tribe above all. I meant with my version of loyalty just a modicum of respect beyond breeding male. just because he is a breeding male does not mean he can't get them to like him beyond his status.

That said, tradition is very strong in the tribe. So yes they would move on if a Nunh was cast down and they do so for the sake of their offspring. If a Nunh is cast down it means he is no longer fit, his abbility and condition is not sharp enough more to assure strong offspring. This doesn't mean they are unimportant, it's just a tradition for the better of the tribe as a whole. Strength and abbility is important in the matter of Nunh, you -must- have strong offspring. The only ones that don't care about this are either Tribeless (possibly, they might still care too) or the kind of tribe members that go with a particularly influential Nunh/Tia that leaves the tribe to try and form his own. as INCREDIBLY RARE as this might be because it's a thing that goes against all taught and does not imply anything good about the man who leaves.

"The naming conventions I think is just a practical way of keeping track of which kid belongs to which male. You wouldn't want any accidental inbreeding. It makes sense that a male has a lot of kids, but the females probably only have a few each. So by giving the child the name of the Nunh who sired them, it's easy to keep track of who the child's parents are."

Agreed. That would probably be the purpose of such. But I linked the site because it mentions some other things beside that.

"Remember, they're not called Alpha males, they're called Breeding males. They're the males who have earned the right and duty to breed. I imagine it sort of like the heavy-weight champion of the world title. It doesn't mean you get to make decisions, or that you're somehow in a priveleged position, it just means you were the best at punching people in the face until they passed out."

I did say they are -like- alpha males in that they do what alpha males do -except- leadership as that tends to be very rare amongst them. I can imagine why as a Nunh has a rather hefty list of duties that would keep him busy. I was just comparing.

I should also note that becoming a Nunh doesn't nececarily mean beating someone in the face untill he's down, it means challenging and defeating him. There might be some speculation on what tribes do in this challenge but I would assume for most it to be some deadly fight of some sort (doesnt have to be fistfights) as I clearly remember descriptions of this tradition mentioning the Nunh -might- die in such a challenge.

So in the end I think it would be wise to say, just so we're all clear, that there's a certain degree on speculation and others might do it slightly different (not me per se, i'm just saying in general) if they do RP this sort of stuff. Since there is a lacking amount of lore that allows for a great deal of speculation on some matters

And not so much on others, some things seem to imply only one thing. Such as the Keepers being more matriarchal while it's implied that the sun tribe is more equal in weight on both sides. males supposedly being more rare and more valuable, and even having traditions of strength in the whole Nunh affair. While Tia's probably do all other duties females also do. (except birthing babies and the like)

C'io Behkt · **08-29-2013, 03:43 PM**

EDIT: It appears two replies appeared while I was writing. That is why this post will now appear very out of chronology, >_>.

------------------------------------

Like you, my main source is the naming convention sheet. I was checking primarily in case there was something I had missed that you had read, particularly because mining for statements by Fernehawles, one of the localizers, on the lore forums can be difficult to do. To pull out a couple of examples of the tidbits Ferne has left for us...

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threa...post980471

&

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threa...post980189

What I'll do with this is showcase how I arrived to my conclusions based on what is written in your link (which I also used) and in these links. It's a lot of challenging assumptions, so please bear with me.

The assertion on how nunh's "handle" 10-50 females each comes from, I guess, these quotes from the localisation team:

"[Hunting grounds are] big enough to sustain the 20-50 females (and the few odd tia) which will follow the nunh."

"Depending on its size, a tribe may have multiple nunh (a ratio of one nunh per ten to fifty females is average)."

In your reading, you've taken it further (I think) by attaching a kind of monogamy between nunh and females, but that is not stated. What it does state is that, in larger tribes, there is a ratio of 1:10-50 of nunh to female. My argument is that ratio does not even come close to implying the level of bond suggested by a single-nunh relationship except in the case there is one nunh because the word ratio is merely statistical.

Now, I'm not saying that my earlier assertion on females able to move between nunhs is correct either; in fact, I think that I could be wrong there too, or at least wrong about it being normative behaviour. I can definitely see -some- tribes operating that way, much like I can see some tribes operating in the manner you outline. So I won't argue that. What I'll do instead is return to what I view as the root of all miqo'te assumptions: the assumption that the Seekers are patriarchal.

My opinion? They aren't.

My evidence? Well, I want to focus on this line:

"Nunh status does not equate to leadership within a tribe, and in fact, very few nunh ever become leaders."

This one is clearer. -Very few- nunh ever become leaders. Very few. So, if we work on the assumption that Seekers are patriarchal, who then, if not the nunh, can lead? Patriarchy requires that males be on top of the power structure, but if the nunh is rarely the leader, does that mean it falls to a tia? And if so, why would the tribe follow a tia? "Most female Seekers of the Sun are rarely impressed by a male who cannot defeat a nunh." Eliminate the options: if the nunh is rarely in leadership, and the tia needs to prove himself before earning the loyalty of the tribe, who is left to lead?

The women are. And since a woman in this case is most likely to be occupying that seat of leadership (except in the very rare cases a nunh is), it then follows that the culture must be (except again in the very rare cases), matriarchal by nature. That isn't to say that the nunh and the tia can't occupy important posts, but it does say that, on a base level, Seeker culture can not assumed to be patriarchal simply because of breeding patterns. Breeding does not connote power in the same way leadership, as implied by the terms matriarchal and patriarchal, does. (A lesson we are all sadly very aware of in the real world.)

And that is the core of what I'm saying: So much of our conjecture on how Seekers operate comes from this mistaken idea that they must be patriarchal. This may be because we live in a patriarchal society in which children nominally carry the father's surname and drew parallels. This may be because we believe there must be some sort of diametric opposition in cultures between Seeker and Keeper based on their naming patterns and how they keep track of their bloodlines. But is that true? Does there need to be a divide between the two clans? Does a naming convention indicate the reigning power of a sex? Do the clans need to operate as differently as Sun and Moon in their name suggests? Or can they BOTH be matriarchal and just have different conventions on how or how much?

I decided they could be. That's how I arrived at my conclusions about the Seekers and why I believe they are matriarchal.

And just to tie it up, I like and have come to agree with your assertion that there is a lot more freedom in Seeker culture for the males to live alongside the females as equals. That doesn't change the structure of power away from matriarchal, in my opinion, but it is a great step different from just assigning -numbers- in the way the Keepers do to their male children.

Mr.Bear · **08-29-2013, 04:09 PM**

I clearly said they are not patriarchal either, I said they are more equal and that both sides hold a lot of weight in their own ways. Females can choose which Nunh they follow, and that holds a lot of weight beside them being able to do the tasks of any tia there might be. (and even being more important in that they are the source of tribe growth)

Males on the other hand also have their own weight to things. Everything implies that the seekers are not matriarchal or patriarchal. The keepers on the other it is suggested to be more matriarchal, atleast in leadership.

You repeat things I already mentioned, and concluded myself. I clearly said multiple times that yes Nunh rarely ever become leaders. So we are agreeing on this.

On the important issue of leadership though, you forget one simple matter. The elders. Wether that be former Nunh, or Tia, or wisewomen, they are likely leaders or leader of the tribe. In a large tribe I might imagine the oldest members of families within that tribe to be possible leaders, it would make sense. But it would be depending on the tribe what the leadership is like. Some might very well be matriarchal in leadership.

It is still implied that the keepers are more matriarchal, it is seen in naming amongst others. The seekers do not have this. Still, It doesn't bother me should someone else say something different ingame. I'd gladly RP that even, as differences between the tribes is only good. (though my character obviously will have his opinions)

Y'el Vhez · **08-29-2013, 05:00 PM**

I've always thought of Seekers as being like prides of lions, with the dominant males still depending on the females that support him and bear his children. A Nunh in a leadership role would have twice the amount of looking over his shoulder to do, given he'd have to protect both his position as a leader and as a Nunh, so I don't see that being very desirable. Though a badass mofo of a Nunh could probably handle it, I think Tia have the advance when it comes to holding other positions of power, seeing as they don't have to worry about the duty of siring.

In Y'el's story, her father was pretty much only good for pumping out kids, and kept his position more through guile than brute strength... Something else to think about. Her retainers are with her thanks to a desperate ploy by the elders of her branch of the tribe (it's important to note I don't necessarily think the rest of the Jaguar tribe is like them; just her immediate family) to force her to stop adventuring by having two wanna-be Nunhs get her pregnant. They're still technically Tia, but were promised they'd become Nunh officially if they knock her up. The thing is they're not worthy, and would lose the title in a hot second if challenged. This is just me playing with the politics of gaining power. The elders of Y'el's family are particularly manipulative like that, given their desperation to assure their particular bloodline doesn't die out since Dalamund decimated it.

When it comes to tribes, I don't think there's really a right or wrong way to play it. What really matters is the particular branch/familial circle your character comes from. That's where you really have the freedom to do as you see fit. Some branches are going to allow their men more power, others will use them only as breeding stock while the females do all the heavy lifting. The members of the same tribe might also balk at the practices of their cousins. We have the lore as a guideline and foundation to build upon, no one has to play it exactly the same.

As for the differences in naming, I see Seekers being named after the male who sired them because a male could potentially sire a lot of children in his lifetime, so it helps to keep track of who came from who. Keepers, with their much smaller tribes and smaller number of males, instead go for taking the names of their mothers, and the numbering of males is because they're just so damn rare, so each number is its own little badge of honor regardless of the actual value. I see both as matters of practicality, not something that lends more power to either sex.

Mr.Bear · **08-30-2013, 03:19 AM**

(08-29-2013, 05:00 PM)Y Wrote: I've always thought of Seekers as being like prides of lions, with the dominant males still depending on the females that support him and bear his children. A Nunh in a leadership role would have twice the amount of looking over his shoulder to do, given he'd have to protect both his position as a leader and as a Nunh, so I don't see that being very desirable. Though a badass mofo of a Nunh could probably handle it, I think Tia have the advance when it comes to holding other positions of power, seeing as they don't have to worry about the duty of siring.

In Y'el's story, her father was pretty much only good for pumping out kids, and kept his position more through guile than brute strength... Something else to think about. Her retainers are with her thanks to a desperate ploy by the elders of her branch of the tribe (it's important to note I don't necessarily think the rest of the Jaguar tribe is like them; just her immediate family) to force her to stop adventuring by having two wanna-be Nunhs get her pregnant. They're still technically Tia, but were promised they'd become Nunh officially if they knock her up. The thing is they're not worthy, and would lose the title in a hot second if challenged. This is just me playing with the politics of gaining power. The elders of Y'el's family are particularly manipulative like that, given their desperation to assure their particular bloodline doesn't die out since Dalamund decimated it.

When it comes to tribes, I don't think there's really a right or wrong way to play it. What really matters is the particular branch/familial circle your character comes from. That's where you really have the freedom to do as you see fit. Some branches are going to allow their men more power, others will use them only as breeding stock while the females do all the heavy lifting. The members of the same tribe might also balk at the practices of their cousins. We have the lore as a guideline and foundation to build upon, no one has to play it exactly the same.

As for the differences in naming, I see Seekers being named after the male who sired them because a male could potentially sire a lot of children in his lifetime, so it helps to keep track of who came from who. Keepers, with their much smaller tribes and smaller number of males, instead go for taking the names of their mothers, and the numbering of males is because they're just so damn rare, so each number is its own little badge of honor regardless of the actual value. I see both as matters of practicality, not something that lends more power to either sex.

I can see that last thing being a good point to make, since indeed seekers are more based around them having Nunh while Keepers are indeed smaller families, and about the actual family instead of having a large tribe with possible multiple families within in. (or a smaller one, but it would still have a Nunh likely. The different families in a smalller tribe would likely harbor from the fact that a Nunh can be challenged and defeated by any worthy Tia and then that new Nunh will breed his own line)

I also agree with the whole "it's probably slightly differently RPed from RPer to RPer how they see their own personal tribe" which is fine (as long as it's not completely wrong like waaaay out there) as that brings interesting and diverse RP as I mentioned. It would be boring if all the tribes were the same, they must have their differences after all.

That said, yours is an interesting take but my tradition set/honorable character would have a huge problem hearing about those elders of yours Tongue

He's already encountered two others that had horrible tribes, ultimately the blame was not on them though. There are a few (very few) certain exceptions where he might see leaving a "tribe" a good thing to do, especially if it's for the sake of your offspring.

That's only obviously when he considers that tribe dishonorable and dysfunctional in the first place. Like a tribe that was started by a Tia who left another tribe. If you are on Balmung we should RP sometime, Athir Nunh being my display name.

Y'el Vhez · **08-30-2013, 08:02 AM**

I'm indeed on Balmung as Y'el Vhez, and yes, we should definitely RP, though Y'el's not one to talk much, let alone about her messed up branch of the tribe. I'm really looking forward to meeting other Miqo'te and seeing people's takes on things in play... Just as soon as logging in no longer requires me to watch TV hitting 0 until I get in the queue.

Mr.Bear · **08-30-2013, 05:24 PM**

(08-30-2013, 08:02 AM)Y Wrote: I'm indeed on Balmung as Y'el Vhez, and yes, we should definitely RP, though Y'el's not one to talk much, let alone about her messed up branch of the tribe. I'm really looking forward to meeting other Miqo'te and seeing people's takes on things in play... Just as soon as logging in no longer requires me to watch TV hitting 0 until I get in the queue.

As long as you log in before American peak hours you are fine. Americans still can have it better in that it seems absolutely impossible to log in should a European crash during those peak hours, but while an American might have a bit of problems, he'll get in.

Not sure why, but that's how it is for all the Europeans and Americans I know with this issue. Atleast Europeans don't have lag despite where the servers are located

Eva Mhirravi · **09-02-2013, 10:18 AM**

So there's one pretty serious implication about the whole Nunh/Tia thing that I've never heard mentioned... okay, so if only the Nunh is allowed to breed, does that mean every other male in the tribe isn't allowed to have sex at all? So every Tia is a virgin? That doesn't seem like a very realistic prospect to me. Thoughts?

Poll: What server should we choose for a Miqo'te Tribe? You do not have permission to vote in this poll.
Gilgamesh	16.67%	13	16.67%
Balmung	83.33%	65	83.33%
Total		78 vote(s)	100%

« Next Oldest \| Next Newest »
Pages (9): « Previous 1 … 5 6 7 8 9 Next » Jump to page:

RPing Miqo'te Tribes.

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes