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Briaya · **09-10-2013, 11:20 PM**

I understand completely. I had to wait over an hour when I got to these quests. It really is a bummer. I wish I was in a company to ask around for them, but the best thing is to ask people at the entrance of queued dungeon.

Lost River · **09-10-2013, 11:36 PM**

Sadly, I didn't have that luck whatsoever. No one else was nearby for me to continue on. So I had to just wait it out.

Fystrael Abylstyrwyn · **09-10-2013, 11:57 PM**

I'm planning to tank but I'm not even 20 yet, so I guess I need to speed it up (although I dislike power-leveling).

I'm trying my best to work on enmity generation and the like, but not sure why I can't hold it yet? Â Topaz Carbuncle held more threat than I did in last half of Sastasha (my first time ever running it, yay!)

Naunet · **09-11-2013, 12:23 AM**

(09-10-2013, 11:57 PM)penniless1 Wrote: Topaz Carbuncle held more threat than I did in last half of Sastasha (my first time ever running it, yay!)

If you're ever tanking a dungeon and there's an arcanist in the group using Topaz Carbuncle, feel free to tell them to use the blue one instead. They shouldn't be using their tanking pet in dungeons.

LeCard · **09-11-2013, 01:47 AM**

(09-10-2013, 11:08 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(09-10-2013, 07:32 PM)LeCard Wrote: what we need: 1 new tank class&job 2new healing class&1job. No new DPS until the first two have been done.

According to a recent Yoshida interview, they plan on allowing ACN to queue as a healer or DPS in the near future to help alleviate the pain -- but that the ultimate bottleneck is a lack of tanks.

Also, you can always try to grab people out of a certain society of mages.

Don't buy it. I can get a tank in the que alot more often than a healer. it seams every time I'm waiting its for a healer. maybe there are less tanks but they just do alot more, so it seems like there are more. I dunno. I just know I've never had a problem finding a tank, a healer? forget about it.

But ACN being able to que as both will be nice.

Edit: What Naunet said. As an ACN, I should never need to use topaz in a dungeon, unless we are getting overwhelmed by 6 mobs at once, then maybe off tank. But generally an ACN should stick to emerald in dungeons, even some of the best tanks have trouble stealing a mob from topaz, so it makes it impossible for a new tank to learn the role if topaz is out stealing the work from them.

KitKat · **09-11-2013, 04:31 AM**

(09-10-2013, 07:32 PM)LeCard Wrote: The problem we face:
below level 30: 2 tank, 1 healer, 5 DPS
Above Level 30: 2tank, 2 healer, 5 DPS

It's not as big a problem as you're thinking. Remember that dungeons queue 2 DPS and only 1 healer/tank.

The real problem is that people don't want to heal or tank. They want to "feel like [they] accomplish something" that apparently doing the damage seems to fulfill for them.

LiadansWhisper · **09-11-2013, 05:01 AM**

(09-11-2013, 04:31 AM)TheCurls Wrote:
(09-10-2013, 07:32 PM)LeCard Wrote: The problem we face:
below level 30: 2 tank, 1 healer, 5 DPS
Above Level 30: 2tank, 2 healer, 5 DPS

It's not as big a problem as you're thinking. Remember that dungeons queue 2 DPS and only 1 healer/tank.

The real problem is that people don't want to heal or tank. They want to "feel like [they] accomplish something" that apparently doing the damage seems to fulfill for them.

Generally speaking, the reason why people don't want to Heal or Tank is because those two roles have far more responsibility put on them as compared to DPS roles. Â When the group wipes, people start bitching at the healer (which I can attest to after having done a Stone Quarry where the tank could only tank one mob at a time, and the DPS bitched at me for not being able to keep the tank up while trying to keep myself alive with 4 of the 6 mobs on me). Â If there's a shitty DPS who can't follow kill order, the tank's job becomes a nightmare of desperately trying to get threat back - and usually failing. Â Then everyone is mad at him (because, geeze, why couldn't he hold threat?!) as opposed to the real culprit - that being the DPS.

It's why I don't pug using the duty finder at the moment, if at all possible. Â I have tank friends and I run with them when at all possible. Â It isn't worth my time as a healer to chance a bad tank or worse DPS.

Rinh Hallani · **09-11-2013, 05:52 AM**

(09-11-2013, 05:01 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Generally speaking, the reason why people don't want to Heal or Tank is because those two roles have far more responsibility put on them as compared to DPS roles. Â When the group wipes, people start bitching at the healer (which I can attest to after having done a Stone Quarry where the tank could only tank one mob at a time, and the DPS bitched at me for not being able to keep the tank up while trying to keep myself alive with 4 of the 6 mobs on me). Â If there's a shitty DPS who can't follow kill order, the tank's job becomes a nightmare of desperately trying to get threat back - and usually failing. Â Then everyone is mad at him (because, geeze, why couldn't he hold threat?!) as opposed to the real culprit - that being the DPS.

Yep, 100% this. The one thing that's put me off tanking is the "tank is god" mentality. You're expected to know the most efficient path through the dungeon, the tactics for every boss, spot a pat a mile away, hold aggro over dps who're targeting the wrong mob, bake a cherry pie whilst standing on your head, etc. It's a hell of a lot of responsibility to pile onto one role. It wouldn't be quite so bad if you were allowed to make mistakes as you learn but more often than not you get slammed in the face by a rage train.

If people want more tanks and shorter queues, they should work together as a team, share some of the responsibility and offer helpful tips to new or struggling tanks rather than shouting at them.

Moondoggie · **09-11-2013, 06:26 AM**

You know the whole "Tank is god" think is not helped by certain Tanks who really act like they are god. I think the worst one i encountered i forget the name but i remember it being a lore one and that they are on Balmung. I can only assume they are an endgamer and have done Titan a bunch of times yet expected people who were new to the fight to be as good as them. After two wipes they yelled and rage quit.

I also had this ridiculous fight with a Tank and what i can only assume was his Girlfriend who is a DPS and kept butting in when i was trying to explain things in Brayflox. When i first entered she mouthed off about how the last healer couldn't heal so i knew exactly what was coming.

I always think that the Tank and Healer should have good communication the best runs i've had are when i'm really getting along with the Tank and we are looking after each other. For a new Dungeon i'll often follow the Tank and hope they know the route XD. If i know the place though i have no problems taking charge and just telling the Tank how to do mobs and bosses if they are new.

Tank and Healer really have the same base requirement in that you need to have thick skin and be able to work under pressure. It's very stressful when things have not been going well after a couple of wipes and the rage really starts. It's at a point where if i get something wrong i apologise even if nobody got mad XD.

Translation for when you ask why they have been wiping entering a group in progress:

"Tank can't hold aggro" = "We kept stealing mobs and then the healer got aggro from them when healing the tank"

"Healer can't heal" = "We are taking stupid damage and overwhelming the healer who is desperately trying to focus on the tank while chain healing the DPS"

Feel free to add more translations Smile

Rahal · **09-11-2013, 06:43 AM**

It's not too bad at Lv50. BLM, DRG, MNK and BRD are all in high demand so you rarely have any issue with getting into a group as one if you ask around.

The main issue is that the average player is bad at teamwork. People tend to take on a "well it's his/her problem" mentality when it comes to taking responsibility in a group.

Let's use a patrol linking to a fight with a 4 man group of a WAR, WHM, BLM and MNK as an example. The patrol charges at the party, aggros the WHM due to healing aggro and kills him/her, resulting in a messy wipe. Whose fault is this?

The WAR, for picking a bad place to fight and not picking up the adds?
The WHM, for not Reposing the patrol as they got close and not running to the tank with the adds they aggro'd?
The BLM, for not using Sleep or Freeze to stop the patrol and controlling the adds in the first place?
The MNK, for fighting too close and not off tanking the patrol?

If you answered 5: All of the above, then you would be correct. Everyone needs to take responsibility. Rinh is completely right. People need to earn how to work together as a team and take responsibility and not only that, take initiative. I've prevented many messy wipes by being proactive with my Sleep on nearby patrols on BLM for example.

Giving each other tips and advice is another great thing. Like I didn't know that Bane from SMN or the Knockback from WHM don't break my sleep. So with that and some coordination from the WHM, we can sleep a mob that we aggro'd and punt it back to the tank to Flash/Provoke. Most tanks don't realise that Flash doesn't break sleep so there is no need to AoE with a BLM or WHM in the party. But they won't know that unless you tell them.

It is also very much work making friends ingame. Dungeon queues are short for everyone if you ask around and put together a group of 4 before queueing. It's even better if it is part of a regular group of people because a team that works together.

I always keep the following in mind in dungeons:

Yelling gets you nowhere. There is a person behind every character
Never assume malice when stupidity is why someone did something dumb.
Never assume stupidity when inexperience is why someone did something dumb.
Never assume inexperience when an honest mistake, lag or good old fashioned software/hardware failure is why someone did something dumb.
Always assume that there is someone completely new to every group.
Especially if they told you they have done the dungeon before.
Speed Runs are only to be done in a premade group with people you are confident in and play well with.
Wipes happen. Deal with it.
Seriously, wipes happen even to the best groups. maybe someone made a mistake or lag happened. Sometimes in a boss fight bad luck happens when it comes to mechanics or the circumstances making it impossible to avoid damage. There have been plenty of times when a wipe happened, it was nobody's fault but someone still ragequits anyway.
Take a break from the game regularly. no really, stepping away from the keyboard for about 15 mins is great for calming down after a stressful dungeon run.
Practise makes permanent. Practise with guidance makes perfect. Don't be afraid to ask other players as to how they do things, or anything at all. it's always best to look silly for a moment then to live in ignorance.

Fystrael Abylstyrwyn · **09-11-2013, 10:07 AM**

(09-11-2013, 06:26 AM)Moondoggie Wrote: If i know the place though i have no problems taking charge and just telling the Tank how to do mobs and bosses if they are new.Â

From a newb tank:Â Heart

.

I can't map dungeons in games, some sort of weird mental block I have. Â I need navigators to point my axe in the right direction, then I'll get to swinging and being beat on.

LeCard · **09-11-2013, 10:14 AM**

(09-11-2013, 06:43 AM)Rahal Wrote: It's not too bad at Lv50. BLM, DRG, MNK and BRD are all in high demand so you rarely have any issue with getting into a group as one if you ask around.

The main issue is that the average player is bad at teamwork. People tend to take on a "well it's his/her problem" mentality when it comes to taking responsibility in a group.

Good info about level 50, gives me something to look forward to. And certainly a good point on the mentality.
I had an amazing group today for Hauke manor, The healer talked to the tank, the tank talked to the healer, they both talked to the DPS and the DPS stayed on point and talked to the Healer and tank. It barely felt like a dungeon with all that teamwork going on.

Also, I will be going SCH route, so if there are any healers out there that have tips for me, or tanks I might be healing in the future that have requests, please just speak up. I don't mind critique(so long as it is constructive) it builds to better playing in the future when done right. I have done some off healing(or replacement healing in some instances as ACN) but I'm sure I still have plenty to learn as the main healer.

Rahal · **09-11-2013, 10:48 AM**

(09-11-2013, 10:14 AM)LeCard Wrote: Good info about level 50, gives me something to look forward to. And certainly a good point on the mentality.
I had an amazing group today for Hauke manor, The healer talked to the tank, the tank talked to the healer, they both talked to the DPS and the DPS stayed on point and talked to the Healer and tank. It barely felt like a dungeon with all that teamwork going on.

Also, I will be going SCH route, so if there are any healers out there that have tips for me, or tanks I might be healing in the future that have requests, please just speak up. I don't mind critique(so long as it is constructive) it builds to better playing in the future when done right. I have done some off healing(or replacement healing in some instances as ACN) but I'm sure I still have plenty to learn as the main healer.

The game is very fair in its difficulty. It punishes mistakes and parties that can't work as a team. As I noted in my previous post, the thing that makes speedruns work is that everyone is on the ball, communicating and importantly, not blaming each other for wipes.

It's not even a thing about good and bad players really. While, if given the choices between a good player, or a bad player with the right attitude, I would invite a good player to a party, likely suceed and never talk to them again. However, I would take the bad player with the right attitude into a linkshell as a more long term thing. You can help someone that is bad but has the right mentality to learn how to play thier class and the game over time.

I have one more, very important rule with dungeons, raid especially too:

If someone is yelling, particularly on voice chat, don't assume that they are automatically mad.

Raids are frantic and can be stressful. People yell out orders and instructions without really thinking and it can be easy to mistake it for actual anger or hostility. Sometimes you need communication to be very clear, sometimes it might be something yelled out because it happened so suddenly. Sometimes it might be that you just need to help that person calm down a little. Sometimes people use all caps in chat mid-battle because it's more noticable. It can be easy to mistake stuff like this for people yelling at you personally.

Lost River · **09-11-2013, 12:04 PM**

Well, as far as how things go, I haven't had anyone complain to me while tanking as either a PLD or WAR as Lucinne, except once.. a DPS who apparently "knew it all" yet he died twice during the whole time for trying to be a tank himself. *laughs* You don't attack stuff -no one else- is attacking and drag the aggro across the whole area and expect me to get it back immediately.

raindrops · **09-11-2013, 01:19 PM**

The only big problem I see with allowing arcanists looking to become scholars to queue as healers is that there'd need to be some sort of check to make sure that they ARE geared/statted to heal. Pre-scholars should absolutely be allowed to queue as healer but there needs to be a way to stop arcanists who only intend to DPS from queueing as scholar to dodge queues.

It'd be a short sighted as hell thing to do (dodging queues to create a group that is likely to wipe) but I don't doubt that there would be people who tried to do it and it'd be doubly frustrating for people who then have to go back and tackle the DPS queue again.

On a side note - I'm on Faerie right now and will likely be transfering to Gilg to be with friends when the option opens. I'm only level 30, but I'm always happy to rerun old dungeons if anyone needs help with the story quests and I'm a healer, so you can stand in my very fast queue with me. I won't always be able to run a dungeon immediately, obviously, but if you need help and we're on the same server then drop me a line.

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