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Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **09-11-2013, 11:54 PM**

(09-11-2013, 11:52 PM)Vinter Wrote: That's not flattery, that's called being a stalker. xD

I'd be flattered. Long as they didn't show up on my doorstep. Heard that happened in a guild in WoW.

Noble_Einherjar · **09-12-2013, 12:21 AM**

(09-11-2013, 11:25 PM)Duhbine Wrote:
(09-11-2013, 11:14 PM)Siobhain Wrote:
(09-11-2013, 11:00 PM)Noble_Einherjar Wrote: Why aren't the Elezen or Roegadyn allowed to be sexy? Spread the wealth.

Â I, sir, take offense! Siobhain is sexy! She's super sexy! She's just... a certain type of sexy.

Â Isn't it up to us to maybe Roegadyns more sexy? Can't say for Elezen since I don't play one.

Â Lost River... Let's have both our Roes be caught in Ul'dah and sold off as slaves. I think it'd be pretteh fantastic.

Â Lost: Oh nuuuu~! No, seriously, hands off or I magic you into the next life.

Â Sio: HULK SMASH!
Â Siobhain and Lost, you two are amazingly very interesting to watch on the forumsÂ Â and agree that Roegadyns and Elezen's can and are sexy, just depends on the person.

As for the Miqo'te's and how they are done. Just remember, how you RP your character is up to you, Lore wise we really don't have much say in it, but that's lore we are just along for the ride and have fun while doings so. You don't need to be a whore or a slave to some person, plenty of them aren't and plenty of them would just as well kill a male for trying haha.

Miqo'te's as a race aren't as reserved about this as the other races, and what you got to mostly remember in the times that this word is sort of based on. It was much the same as in our earlier times, and back them "companions" where in many culture's well respected... and some slaves in culture's were as well, if they brought their Master profit that is.

XD In response to the .. whole conversation .. coming from a snippet of my post, I was more talking about NPC Elezen and Roegadyn. Because I do think more than just the Miqo'te are sexy.

Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **09-12-2013, 12:29 AM**

(09-12-2013, 12:21 AM)Noble_Einherjar Wrote:
(09-11-2013, 11:25 PM)Duhbine Wrote:
(09-11-2013, 11:14 PM)Siobhain Wrote:
(09-11-2013, 11:00 PM)Noble_Einherjar Wrote: Why aren't the Elezen or Roegadyn allowed to be sexy? Spread the wealth.

Â I, sir, take offense! Siobhain is sexy! She's super sexy! She's just... a certain type of sexy.

Â Isn't it up to us to maybe Roegadyns more sexy? Can't say for Elezen since I don't play one.

Â Lost River... Let's have both our Roes be caught in Ul'dah and sold off as slaves. I think it'd be pretteh fantastic.

Â Lost: Oh nuuuu~! No, seriously, hands off or I magic you into the next life.

Â Sio: HULK SMASH!
Â Siobhain and Lost, you two are amazingly very interesting to watch on the forumsÂ Â and agree that Roegadyns and Elezen's can and are sexy, just depends on the person.

As for the Miqo'te's and how they are done. Just remember, how you RP your character is up to you, Lore wise we really don't have much say in it, but that's lore we are just along for the ride and have fun while doings so. You don't need to be a whore or a slave to some person, plenty of them aren't and plenty of them would just as well kill a male for trying haha.

Miqo'te's as a race aren't as reserved about this as the other races, and what you got to mostly remember in the times that this word is sort of based on. It was much the same as in our earlier times, and back them "companions" where in many culture's well respected... and some slaves in culture's were as well, if they brought their Master profit that is.

XD In response to the .. whole conversation .. coming from a snippet of my post, I was more talking about NPC Elezen and Roegadyn. Because I do think more than just the Miqo'te are sexy.

I was joking. I also agree.

synaesthetic · **09-12-2013, 02:38 AM**

The interesting bit here is it's almost always Sunseeker miqo who are portrayed as prostitutes and exotic dancers. The most Keeper miqo are portrayed in NPC form tend to be poachers... and enemies.

I mean, it's a game made in Japan and it has a race of humanoids with cat-like features. What did you expect, fair feminist portrayals of female miqo'te? Tongue

Not to mention our idea of feminism is a human idea, and miqo'te already have shown to have very un-human-like cultural traditions and beliefs. The concept of modesty seems to be really far down on their priority list.

Norna · **09-12-2013, 05:32 AM**

(09-12-2013, 02:38 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: The interesting bit here is it's almost always Sunseeker miqo who are portrayed as prostitutes and exotic dancers. The most Keeper miqo are portrayed in NPC form tend to be poachers... and enemies.

Add the fact that Moon Keepers worship "The Lover" and there might be some interesting lore going on here (my Moon Keeper's family interpret the teachings of Menphina that love isn't a limited commodity, so concepts such as Best Friend and Monogamous Marriage is seen as curiosities, you're either Friends, Acquaintances, Allies or Strangers, and you either are Lovers or not. Same thing with Enemies or Rivals; you either are or aren't, but you are definitely NOT on a pedestal as a One True Rival like how many shounen manga as One True Rivals. Since Moon Keepers keep their family units to themselves, I can see them interpret this very differently from family to family.

Also, my Moon Keeper have her preferences and is extremely choosy, since Menphina's teachings do not say that she HAS to take lovers, just that love is love and that's all there is to it. She does try to influence her Sun sisters to take up more lucrative and self-sufficient work that isn't at the whims of men, but she doesn't judge them for taking the careers they have since she entered Ul'dah as a gil-less refuge, after having been tricked into free labor in one of the mines, and was lucky that Momodi picked her up as an errand girl).

Come to think of it. Sun Seekers worship "The Warden", and the Nunh's responsibility to his tribe is to protect them. If there is a group of elders in the tribe who calls some of the shots, then their work is to protect the tribe as well. So the important people in Sun Seeking culture are wardens, which would make the others their wards, which I could see why so many females and Tia leave to see how others live, since it can be very frustrating to have to do as another tell them because "it's for your and the tribe's own good". Particularly when they are in their equivalents of 16-25 age range (aka: Rebellious years).

Of course, since they've been protected was wards their whole lives, they have limited employment opportunities. Those that were tanners might be able to become leatherworkers, but in a large tribe, I would guess a lot of the work isn't learned by everyone (some hunt, some gather, some cook, some heal and so on), and if they go to a place where their specialty isn't needed, they need to find other ways to support themselves. Since other races have the stereotype of promiscuous catgirls, they might suggest that, and not knowing/being able to see the alternatives due to their sheltered upbringing, the Miqo'te might agree, and the stereotype becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, as new arrivals see other Miqo'te do prostitution and join them (particularly in Ul'dah, where they worship money, and in Limsa Lominsa, where pirates, brigands and other bad influences thrive).

In contrast, the solitary Moon Keepers have to learn every trick of every trade in order to remain self-sufficient.

Oh dear, this became a bit too long and speculative. TL;DR: I wish that we saw Miqo'te in more walks of life, but there might be (speculative) reasons why a large number of Sun Seekers might find themselves in a situation that often leads to entertainment and prostitution. Also, some Moon Keeping headcanon.

LiadansWhisper · **09-12-2013, 05:36 AM**

The overly sexualized Miqo'te don't bug me as much as the random Miqo'te who use things like "meow" in place of "now" or who purr while talking.

I can't quite put my finger on why it bugs me, but it drives me nuts.

Rinh Hallani · **09-12-2013, 06:25 AM**

I'll admit it bothers me a bit but, as mentioned, there are lots of miqo'te women who are quite the opposite. The arcanist quests in particular were brilliant in my opinion. I really loved how a 'weak female' miqo'te came into her own and saved the day, reducing her foe to a blumbering fool. Hah!

ArmachiA · **09-12-2013, 07:22 AM**

Ain't nothing wrong with a Miqote being a courtesan if she's a strong, independent Miqote who don't need no man.

In all seriousness the game is super sexual sometimes and as long as it's portrayed as being 100% consensual I have no issue with it.

(That room in Sastasha is extremely uncomfortable for that reason.)

FreelanceWizard · **09-12-2013, 09:09 AM**

Wow, this thread really exploded since I last looked at it. Smile

To clarify my original post, I personally don't like the sheer volume of miqo'te females being portrayed in a highly sexualized light due to how it muddies the concept of the race as explained in other lore sources -- but that is the lore the game presents, so we have to have our characters react accordingly. We don't get to pick and choose which lore we like and which we don't.

That said, my character, based on her upbringing and other life events, happens to very strongly dislike miqo'te characters who she feels are hypersexualized or "degrading" the race. That's an IC opinion that has nothing to do with OOC, and I as a player am acutely aware of the potential IC consequences of this stance, how it's outside the norm, and how much of a judgmental jerk she's being. FWIW, I also have an elezen character who happens to enjoy using his money to have miqo'te women fawn over him and share his bed. Smile

Clover · **09-12-2013, 09:49 AM**

I've seen many kinds of Miqo'tes ingame, so I haven't been under the impression that they tend to be portrayed in a sexual way. One of them was a courtesan, alright, and another one was a Captain (or some sort of high rank) in the Maelstrom GC, and another one was a studious arcanist, and a long etc.

I also remember a quest where I had to gather the Costa del Sol dancers, and I swear that I saw girls from other races there (?).

I do understand if sex had less taboosÂ in the Miqo'te society, or if their taboosÂ were different than ours. They are a completely different culture, one I don't necessarily understand or share. I think I've said it before, but I can't play my Miqo'te girl as if she was saving her first kiss for the love of her life like a human girl would do, since that's not what she's been taught; in fact, she's been taught to breed out of obligation someday, since romance plays no role in her culture. This doesn't mean that I have to make her breed with anyone, or that I have to play her as a sexually open girl (quite the contrary, she's very innocent!). In the end, everyone will play their Miqo'tes as they see fit *nods*. I just mean that they might not even see being a prostitute as something shocking or immoral.

I'm personally not troubled that a very small number of Miqo'tes (out of many) might be portrayed as prostitutes. Even if they were a majority, I still wouldn't be troubled because that's how lore is.

Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **09-12-2013, 09:51 AM**

(09-12-2013, 02:38 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: The interesting bit here is it's almost always Sunseeker miqo who are portrayed as prostitutes and exotic dancers. The most Keeper miqo are portrayed in NPC form tend to be poachers... and enemies.

I mean, it's a game made in Japan and it has a race of humanoids with cat-like features. What did you expect, fair feminist portrayals of female miqo'te? Not to mention our idea of feminism is a human idea, and miqo'te already have shown to have very un-human-like cultural traditions and beliefs. The concept of modesty seems to be really far down on their priority list.

It might be because many Seekers of the Sun probably come from near Ul'dah, and many Keepers of the Moon come from Gridania.

I agree feminism is a human idea-- it comes from centuries of cultures treating women like commodities to be traded and treated however their men please. In many cultures it was the sole purpose of a woman, who was raised to be this way, to please her husband and do whatever he asked. There are, however, plenty of exceptions as well where women have been and still are strong figures. In many of THOSE cases, the women used their femininity to their advantage. They didn't have to be powerful or independent of men; they -used- men the way they'd been used for status or the like.

Ancient Rome for example. The Domina had nearly as much freedom as her husband, she ruled her house, she was highly respected, women -ran- brothels, etc. Same in places in China, even other parts of Europe. Vikings had strong women who weren't always at the mercy of their men. Spartan women didn't take any poop from any fellow; supposedly they were trained to defend themselves against marriage proposals (part of which included kidnapping) and often sent 'potential suitors/kidnappers' packing. But these women were also spectacular wives and strong mothers. They followed their cultures and worked within them. Hasn't anyone ever heard the line 'with your shield or upon it?'. That was a frequent female mentality-- they didn't need men to force it on them, their culture groomed them to feel that way. -Slave women- existed in all of those cultures, probably to fulfill the needs of men who were... let's face it... a bit too afraid to deal with their own wives sometimes.

While we're talking about Japan.

Many wives, widows, daughters, and rebels answered the call of duty by engaging in battle, commonly alongside samurai men. They were members of the bushi (samurai) class in feudal Japan and were trained in the use of weapons to protect their household, family, and honor in times of war. They also represented a divergence from the traditional "housewife" role of the Japanese woman. They are sometimes mistakenly referred to as female samurai, although this is an oversimplification. Onna bugeisha were very important people in ancient Japan. Significant icons such as Empress Jingu, Tomoe Gozen, Nakano Takeko, and HÅjÅ Masako were all onna bugeisha who came to have a significant impact on Japan. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onna-bugeisha )

And then there's Gozen.

During the Battle of Awazu on February 21, 1184, Gozen rode into the enemy forces, flung herself on their strongest warrior, unhorsed, pinned, and decapitated him.[sup][2][/sup] In the Tale of Heike, Gozen was described as being "especially beautiful, with white skin, long hair, and charming features. She was also a remarkably strong archer, and as a swords-woman she was a warrior worth a thousand, ready to confront a demon or a god, mounted or on foot. She handled unbroken horses with superb skill; she rode unscathed down perilous descents. Whenever a battle was imminent, Yoshinaka sent her out as his first captain, equipped with strong armor, an oversized sword, and a mighty bow; and she performed more deeds of valor than any of his other warriors."

Even though the primary role of women in ancient Japan continued to be the support to their family and their husbands, they acquired a higher status in the household. These laws also allowed Japanese women to control finances, bequeath property, the upkeep of the home, managed servants, and for raising their children with proper, loyal, samurai upbringing. Most importantly, Japanese women were also expected to defend their homes in times of war.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. You can be strong -and- be feminine, and not be a man or prostitute-hater.

The Western term Dragon Lady came to mean 'strong, deceitful, domineering or mysterious' and it used often in reference to Chinese women before the 1930s. Note, yes, strong is in there and so is domineering, but deceitful and mysterious are too. You know who owned the majority of brothels in ancient history? Women. You know who treated female slaves the worst in the majority of ancient cultures? Also women.

You want females like this, then have them. But remember that many of these strong women didn't get disgusted or degrade women that were slaves (of their own culture) or prostitutes. They understood their necessity and used their existence to further empower themselves. This mentality is probably a bit different than most players have because of the time and places in which we live; but a common issue with trying to RP something from another 'era' or in another world is trying -too- hard to relate it to personal (and limited) knowledge of only the RPer's life and upbringing. Most people say you can't use game mechanics like leveling or events or class to determine your character and are dead set against it. At the same time I see many people with that view using game mechanics or what they assume to be game developers' mentalities or their own RL experiences (rather than anthropological or biological knowledge) to validate or invalidate what they consider to be right or wrong in RP.

If we're going to go that route, we might as well go 100% and try to look at the potential lore-reasoning that could cause a certain mindset.

We complain here and there throughout many threads that if "Everyone does this" then it's no longer special. If everyone who RPs a Seeker or everyone else who views a Seeker that goes the route of slave, exotic dancer, or even prostitute considers them to lack knowledge, maturity, or common sense because of their culture or their upbringing and reflects this by pitying them or being disgusted by them and wanting to be so much unlike them, then that mindset will become the norm and what we see in Ul'dah will become the exception. Those people trying to be special by fighting the stereotype are then, no longer special because they have no one but NPCs to compare themselves to. By bringing up the bad points about Seekers and SE and rabid fan-service with no substantial appreciation of the culture or the race we're unintentionally (or intentionally) going to be manipulating good RPers with a lot of promise and creativity to walk a road they're afraid to trod because of how they might be received by other players.

Also, you can probably assume that both Highlander women and Roegadyn women are considered pretty strong and probably very intimidating. Feminine equality, or even superiority, exist in this game already. Lalafell and Elezen are virtually equal to their men. So only Miqo'te -might- in -one- case be considered 'not equal' and even then, it's questionable because anyone can be made a slave, man or women, and likely there are more Miqo'te men who are used to being used and bossed around and degraded than there are women. Just because they're hyper-sexualized in -some- cases doesn't mean they're not the more powerful in terms of gender, of their breed.

Raeletta · **09-12-2013, 05:10 PM**

I thought it was fairly well done, myself.

I can see why people might think it's bad, but as others have said: It's clear a lot of Miqo'te don't care about other races social norms for sex / sexuality.

Plus you do see plenty of them where they're not sexualised at all, like in the grand companies, the U tribe Y'sholta.

Can't forget this lady either, she clearly isn't happy with her predicament: [Image: 17754480252836380672_2013-08-25_00002_zp...g~original]

[Image: 17754480252836380672_2013-08-25_00002_zp...g~original]

Â

Some of it's certainly fan service, but the lore fits it quite well. Plus it lets us make Miqo who rebel this system, and have much support in doing so. Perhaps we'll change the way the world thinks, hmm? (Rae hasn't been set for this yet, dunno where she stands on the topic)

I found it far weirder that there were very few cat puns, I mean I've only seen one NPC say something along the lines of "get it done right meow"

K'nahli · **09-12-2013, 05:17 PM**

Grrr.....

[Image: tumblr_mt0vftPpNu1rq5kiao2_1280.png]

Jove · **09-12-2013, 06:04 PM**

I think this one may be my favourite...

Swift Nightclaw · **09-12-2013, 08:57 PM**

(09-11-2013, 09:10 PM)Aysun Wrote: Something I've been seeing a lot lately has been the 'modifying' of a races' lore to suit peoples' tastes rather than working WITH the lore to create an interesting character. If you don't like the race's lore, don't play it. Don't try to make it something else because you like how catgirls look and you don't like how SE made them.

/endrant

I lurv you a bit right now.Â Well said.

I had the same impression as others. They're miqo'te, they aren't human. Fan service or not, their culture can be quite different when it comes to views and feelings regarding sex.Â It doesn't make them lesser, it just makes their view different.

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Does anyone else get kind of annoyed at how Miqo'te are represented in the world?

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes