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Swift Nightclaw · **09-12-2013, 02:50 PM**

(09-12-2013, 02:22 PM)J Wrote: I've just never understood the aversion towards 'trash' enemies in dungeons and raids. In many cases they serve to provide a decent challenge and/or are usually placed for the sake of immersion. I've done my fair share of high end raiding during my time and trash enemies never really bothered me. They're as much a part of the experience as the actual bosses themselves. For those in the know, I'm talking about the likes of the Black Temple and Sunwell Plateau in WoW.

Does it grow tedious after a while? Definitely - but that's why there's other aspects of the game to dabble in. Or other games/hobbies entirely. Anything will get boring if you do it over and over, 'trash enemies' or otherwise. Besides, people need to ask themselves whether they really need that high end weapon right this instant or whether it can be a long term goal instead. The game might become a lot more fun for many folk if they stop pushing themselves so hard and cease trying to find questionable shortcuts.

Using WoW as an example, go check out the various WoW focused forums and ask how much everyone loved Trial of the Crusader.

Man, no trash WHATSOEVER! An entire raid of nothing but bosses! Must be the best raid ever conceived, right?

Oddly, for some reason, people seem to hate it more than any other one and Ulduar, chock full of a LOT of trash, gets praised as a fantastic, glorious raid.Â Some will argue the boss encounters are the reason, but nobody complains about trash in Ulduar.

Without "trash mobs" people would get bored with the bosses as well.Â Bottom line, Square can't develop a game for the few who want nothing to do with 90% of the game and want 10% of it to fill hours upon hours of their time.Â It just doesn't work.

I'm glad to see how they're reacting.Â My goal is to run story dungeons with friends & RPers and at 50 hopefully I'll be mostly playing with real/in game friends for dungeons and raids rather than strangers.

Lost River · **09-12-2013, 03:01 PM**

Trash is a given part of any MMO. But, as said earlier, the whole bosses only thing only caters to some as well.

I think SE should do both! Have it's coursework now. And then add "Boss Mode!" or "Unlimited Mode" where you fight a series of hard bosses. Or you fight a series of hard bosses until you die. The latter would be new, but it keeps scores and rewards you based on your performance. As well, no gear damage for the latter mode.

Zyrusticae · **09-12-2013, 03:12 PM**

(09-12-2013, 02:25 PM)Wolf Wrote: When crafted equipment isn't as good as what you could get at doing these dungeons over and over[...]

This is my biggest problem with the game at this moment.

The only point to level a craft is for repairs, and that's it. Not even materia, because dropped and tome gear does NOT use it. There is literally no other reason to bother leveling a craft.

That's, pardon the French, fucking BULLSHIT. I have zero incentive to level a craft other than for the sake of leveling it. Nothing I can make with a craft will ever stand muster against that ridiculous tome gear. It pisses me right the fuck off, and I hope they fix that shit, because it ain't right.

C'io Behkt · **09-12-2013, 04:04 PM**

(09-12-2013, 03:12 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 02:25 PM)Wolf Wrote: When crafted equipment isn't as good as what you could get at doing these dungeons over and over[...]
This is my biggest problem with the game at this moment.

The only point to level a craft is for repairs, and that's it. Not even materia, because dropped and tome gear does NOT use it. There is literally no other reason to bother leveling a craft.

That's, pardon the French, fucking BULLSHIT. I have zero incentive to level a craft other than for the sake of leveling it. Nothing I can make with a craft will ever stand muster against that ridiculous tome gear. It pisses me right the fuck off, and I hope they fix that shit, because it ain't right.

Yeah, it is boiling down to the same problem Late WoW had in which the only truly valuable craft was... Alchemy. Early WoW, at least, integrated crafted items and boss-drop recipes into the mixture. Maybe if FFXIV makes gateway PVP-gear attainable by crafting, it'll work out. Other than that, the only real avenue for crafting (outside of potions and repairs) will be Housing.

Ashren Dotharl · **09-12-2013, 04:57 PM**

(09-12-2013, 03:12 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 02:25 PM)Wolf Wrote: When crafted equipment isn't as good as what you could get at doing these dungeons over and over[...]
This is my biggest problem with the game at this moment.

The only point to level a craft is for repairs, and that's it. Not even materia, because dropped and tome gear does NOT use it. There is literally no other reason to bother leveling a craft.

That's, pardon the French, fucking BULLSHIT. I have zero incentive to level a craft other than for the sake of leveling it. Nothing I can make with a craft will ever stand muster against that ridiculous tome gear. It pisses me right the fuck off, and I hope they fix that shit, because it ain't right.

This has sadly become a common practice in most MMOs nowadays. Crafting is only worth its wait as pre-heroic gear, preparing you for the grind to get your heroic gear, which then prepares you for the grind to get your raid gear.

On another note, I just ran my first AK after patch and it sucked so bad. I honestly don't think I'll run that dungeon again when I can do Castrum in half the time for 20 more ATP. It took us around 90 minutes to finish, that's waaaaaay too long to spend in a non-raid.

CassandraJean · **09-12-2013, 05:43 PM**

The only thing that bothers me is that you HAVE to have this certain set of gear to be useful to others. If it reaches a point where you enter a dungeon and people groan at you for not having the time-consuming difficult to obtain armor yet, then it makes it frustrating to try and play the game with other people.

And it isn't gear that you can earn by crafting. Or by working hard to make money through other means. It's gear you can only obtain by grinding the same few dungeons over and over and over.

I mean, in time I'll end up getting it... but I enjoy playing different parts of the game and experiencing all the different aspects of it, not just doing the same thing over and over.

LiadansWhisper · **09-12-2013, 06:36 PM**

(09-12-2013, 11:26 AM)Rahal Wrote: Actually this change is bad for everyone:

Exactly 60 runs of AK are needed for full Darklight. At a 20 minute run each this clocks in at 1,200 minutes or 20 hours of playtime. Basically you can get your Darklight comfortably with casual play without a problem. But not any more you are now looking at potentially spending up to120 hours just to get your Darklight set, so you can grind Primals so you can grind Bahamut's Coil.

While I kind of get what you're saying, there isn't any further content to grind. Â Why shouldn't it take quite a while to be in full BIS gear? Â :-\

Quote:People already in Darklight no longer have a reason to run AK and WP to help lower level people. All this change has done is alienate new players from the well equipped players by actively discouraging the well equipped players from interacting in content with new players. Why spend up to 2 hours in a dungeon with a new player when a party of full Dark Light people can do it in less than 40. To this end I am expecting a rapid increase in shouts in town demanding parties full Dark Light only and I really can't blame them.

I just did WP in an hour with three people who had never done the instance before, and only one of us had a single piece of Darklight gear.

Quote:There is still no incentive to clear out the trash mobs. Nothing is dropped and the Allagan Pieces always go to someone random so it's entirely possible that you will get nothing from it.

They're also Bronze or Tin, so they really don't matter. Â I agree that they should do something about adding trash drops.

Quote:It just pushed the Speedrunners into Castrum and Praetorium making it even worse for people trying to get the story done.

Then they'll fix that, too.

Quote:I played a bit of AK this morning and it is completely broken for non-tanks. SE made every mob Sleep immune and gave them a huge movespeed boost in the new patch. As a BLM I can tell you first hand, if you pull aggro you die. No ifs or buts. You can't hit Lethargy + Sprint and kite them away because the mobs just ignore it. If you run to the tank then you may will risk triggering a link, or in the case of WP, get stabbed in the face by a Tonberry Patrol. Basically all that will happen is "LFM AK/WP Speedrun Spam SCH, DRG, MNK Full Darklight ONRY".

Then, quite frankly, your healer sucks. Â I just did WP and the Black Mage pulled threat several times. Â She didn't die, though, because I have a pulse. Â Otherwise, if you don't want to pull aggro, watch your damn threat. Â Absolutely no one is forcing you to keep on DPSing that mob that's already yellow or orange to you.

Quote:The game's economy is still broken as there is no way to make money. What is happening in the game is that the moneysinks are taking more money out than is made by players. What does this mean? There's no incentive to do a damn thing at 50. Repair bills are still going to be a moneysink and AH Taxes ensure that money is being steadily burned. Sure you can earn money by selling things to other players but people are slowly starting to realise that there is less and less money going around which is causing AH prices on everything to crash, devaluing the DoH and DoL classes even more.

They do need to fix this, and I expect them to in 2.1.

Quote:Until they bring back the "Limit Break" quests from FFXI where at 50 and each 5 levels to 75, you were forced to group up to do a quest. This will very quickly weed out the bads and power levellers in FFXIV. make it so everyone can't get past lv10 without doing the Guildleves, 15 without doing Satasha, 40 without doing the Raid Leve etc. Everyone currently at 50 will also be permanently synced to Lv10 with the only way to raise that will be to do the Duty finder stuff. Boom, you will only see truly bad players and power levellers at low levels because they can't function in a team.

What a horrible thought. Â I'm glad that SE has better advisors working for them, because I certainly wouldn't want to play a game like that.

Quote:You will still run into mean people and elitists but thankfully they are a tiny minority on this wonderful server. That problem will solve itself when they finally fuck off back to WoW :3

Welcome to the internet, where people are assholes. Â By the way, not everyone in WoW is an asshole. Â I'm a hardcore raider in WoW, and I like to think I'm not an asshole.

Aleister · **09-12-2013, 07:00 PM**

(09-12-2013, 04:57 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 03:12 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 02:25 PM)Wolf Wrote: When crafted equipment isn't as good as what you could get at doing these dungeons over and over[...]
This is my biggest problem with the game at this moment.

The only point to level a craft is for repairs, and that's it. Not even materia, because dropped and tome gear does NOT use it. There is literally no other reason to bother leveling a craft.

That's, pardon the French, fucking BULLSHIT. I have zero incentive to level a craft other than for the sake of leveling it. Nothing I can make with a craft will ever stand muster against that ridiculous tome gear. It pisses me right the fuck off, and I hope they fix that shit, because it ain't right.
This has sadly become a common practice in most MMOs nowadays. Crafting is only worth its wait as pre-heroic gear, preparing you for the grind to get your heroic gear, which then prepares you for the grind to get your raid gear.

On another note, I just ran my first AK after patch and it sucked so bad. I honestly don't think I'll run that dungeon again when I can do Castrum in half the time for 20 more ATP. It took us around 90 minutes to finish, that's waaaaaay too long to spend in a non-raid.

I think you're gonna run it again. Why? there is not that much content to do at the moment and you need your myth tomestones which I doubt you're gonna be able to PuG Coil to get it cause I feel like Anything past ifrit should be between LS/FC members to progress through.. People who beat them in PuGs just got REALLY lucky.

GuyWithFace · **09-12-2013, 09:24 PM**

There are those of us who did AK the "proper" way before speedruns were a thing. Me and a few guildies had full runs down to about 28 minutes with all the trash dead, and that was still during early access. With the gear we have now, we could easily 'speedrun' AK within 20-25 minutes.

That is, until someone finds a new way to skip most of the trash, then THAT will become the new way to do it until SE tries to fix it again.

Ashren Dotharl · **09-13-2013, 05:55 AM**

(09-12-2013, 07:00 PM)Aleister Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 04:57 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 03:12 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 02:25 PM)Wolf Wrote: When crafted equipment isn't as good as what you could get at doing these dungeons over and over[...]
This is my biggest problem with the game at this moment.

The only point to level a craft is for repairs, and that's it. Not even materia, because dropped and tome gear does NOT use it. There is literally no other reason to bother leveling a craft.

That's, pardon the French, fucking BULLSHIT. I have zero incentive to level a craft other than for the sake of leveling it. Nothing I can make with a craft will ever stand muster against that ridiculous tome gear. It pisses me right the fuck off, and I hope they fix that shit, because it ain't right.
This has sadly become a common practice in most MMOs nowadays. Crafting is only worth its wait as pre-heroic gear, preparing you for the grind to get your heroic gear, which then prepares you for the grind to get your raid gear.

On another note, I just ran my first AK after patch and it sucked so bad. I honestly don't think I'll run that dungeon again when I can do Castrum in half the time for 20 more ATP. It took us around 90 minutes to finish, that's waaaaaay too long to spend in a non-raid.
I think you're gonna run it again. Why? there is not that much content to do at the moment and you need your myth tomestones which I doubt you're gonna be able to PuG Coil to get it cause I feel like Anything past ifrit should be between LS/FC members to progress through.. People who beat them in PuGs just got REALLY lucky.

I actually -don't- think I'm going to run it again, Â but thanks for trying to tell me what I'm going to do. AK is -not- the only place you can get ATM, it is just the first place you can get it. Coil of Bahamut drops actual ilevel 90 gear on top of giving ATM and was intended to be the main place you farmed it, not AK. Castrum is not faster to run than AK is and gives you 100 ATP, so if all you're trying to do is get your Darklight gear and Relic weapon (like I am) it is far more efficient to run Castrum, not Keep.

Also I have enough people in my FC to run three groups through Coil, so I have no need for PUGs.

Edit: In short, the only reason people ran Keep over Castrum was because you could do it a little faster and it gave almost as many ATP with the added bonus of also getting ATM. At around 35 minutes a run with a regular group you could cap weekly ATM in about 4.5 hours, for a total of we'll say 50 hours to get your AF+1. I will admit this is an insanely small amount of time to get the ilevel 90 gear, waaaay too short, however this was why people ran Keep. Now that it takes nearly twice as long to run Keep than it does Castrum (60 - 90 minutes for Keep vs. 35 - 45 minutes for Castrum if you skip all cutscenes) once people realize that Coil drops way more ATM they will stop doing Keep and start doing Castrum because it gives more ATP and takes less time which means they can get into Coil faster.

As for there being nothing left to grind after Darklight? That is INCREDIBLY misinformed. After you have your Darklight you get to start farming Primals for your different weapons, you also get to farm for your Relic weapon, then you get to farm Coil for Allagan gear and ATM for AF+1 and Relic+1, then in a few months you'll also get to start grinding Crystal Tower for whatever gear you get from there, and eventually you'll also get to grind whatever new Primal they add into the game in 2.1 or 2.2.

(09-12-2013, 09:24 PM)GuyWithFace Wrote: There are those of us who did AK the "proper" way before speedruns were a thing. Me and a few guildies had full runs down to about 28 minutes with all the trash dead, and that was still during early access. With the gear we have now, we could easily 'speedrun' AK within 20-25 minutes.

That is, until someone finds a new way to skip most of the trash, then THAT will become the new way to do it until SE tries to fix it again.

I would really love to know your method for clearing AK as fast if not faster clearing trash than people were able to clear it without clearing trash, and I would also really love to know how you were doing it during Early Access when Keep requires you to beat the entire story before you can access it. You guys most be the coolest kids on the internet if you managed to beat the entire game in less than 3 days despite all the Error 90k and 3102 and 1017, etc.

Crimmera Vahn · **09-13-2013, 06:24 AM**

(09-12-2013, 02:50 PM)Swift Nightclaw Wrote:
(09-12-2013, 02:22 PM)J Wrote: I've just never understood the aversion towards 'trash' enemies in dungeons and raids. In many cases they serve to provide a decent challenge and/or are usually placed for the sake of immersion. I've done my fair share of high end raiding during my time and trash enemies never really bothered me. They're as much a part of the experience as the actual bosses themselves. For those in the know, I'm talking about the likes of the Black Temple and Sunwell Plateau in WoW.

Does it grow tedious after a while? Definitely - but that's why there's other aspects of the game to dabble in. Or other games/hobbies entirely. Anything will get boring if you do it over and over, 'trash enemies' or otherwise. Besides, people need to ask themselves whether they really need that high end weapon right this instant or whether it can be a long term goal instead. The game might become a lot more fun for many folk if they stop pushing themselves so hard and cease trying to find questionable shortcuts.

Using WoW as an example, go check out the various WoW focused forums and ask how much everyone loved Trial of the Crusader.

Man, no trash WHATSOEVER! An entire raid of nothing but bosses! Must be the best raid ever conceived, right?

Oddly, for some reason, people seem to hate it more than any other one and Ulduar, chock full of a LOT of trash, gets praised as a fantastic, glorious raid.Â Some will argue the boss encounters are the reason, but nobody complains about trash in Ulduar.

Without "trash mobs" people would get bored with the bosses as well.Â Bottom line, Square can't develop a game for the few who want nothing to do with 90% of the game and want 10% of it to fill hours upon hours of their time.Â It just doesn't work.

I'm glad to see how they're reacting.Â My goal is to run story dungeons with friends & RPers and at 50 hopefully I'll be mostly playing with real/in game friends for dungeons and raids rather than strangers.

Â ToC was a loot pinata, a boring one.Â Ulduar didn't really have that much trash compared to ZG or MC.Â Ulduar and ICC had the perfect ammount of trash, IMHO.Â Enough to add flavour and interest, without being a series of tedious pulls.Â However, with that said, ZG and its crazy ammount of trash really gave me the feeling that I was actualy invading a real, fully populated city.Â That was cool.Â It just got tiresome after awhile.Â Plus Ulduar had fun mechanics, especially the opening seige.

Xenedra · **09-17-2013, 10:23 AM**

I'm seeing a whole lot of overreacting to people finding ways to hurry up a time consuming process. It's the nature of man to take what we are given and find ways to do it efficiently. In the case of long distances? Pack animals, cars, boats, planes. In the case of an MMO dungeon? Sometimes that's a speed run. : P

Are we really rushing in and condemning people for doing this? Some of them are jerks, yes, but... they aren't ALL jerks (as has been said many times in this thread already :>). Many of them, no, shall I say, US (gasp!), were just trying to be efficient. I will also point out that many of us, when asked, are quite willing to go back and help others advance, as well. And you know what? We have experience and awesome gear, so the people we helped had a good time of it and maybe learned a thing or two as well.

I could go on and on about how innocent speed runs were for most of the people I run dungeons with, but what I'm really trying to get across here is that there's no need to go in, guns blazing, on the mild majority. I, and many others certainly weren't out to mess up anyone's gaming experience. Is it necessary to point fingers and call names? There are plenty of great posts in this thread branching off of the dungeon modification that don't require any of us to throw around "cheater" or "elitist." Thank some of you guys for that!

Sum up: be nice, please~! I'm changing this topic name to start what I hope will be a change in tone in this thread. Smile

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