RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

Illira · **09-25-2013, 03:35 PM**

(09-24-2013, 11:53 PM)Siobhain Wrote:
(09-24-2013, 09:57 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(09-24-2013, 09:34 PM)Siobhain Wrote: Basically, one of the down points of it for a player is that playing an older individual sort of denotes that they are set in their ways. It's not really character development for the player anymore so much as helping others develop -their- characters. Romance, which isn't all that important, is probably no longer a viable option or interest. Conflict, being evil, rivalries all seem like they would be beneath a wiser, older individual.

I would be careful here, because old(er) certainly does not necessitate grumpy, or even wise.

That's true.

And age really doesn't equate to much except that with age, there are usually some inescapable physical changes. Slower or faster for some than others. So you two are right, I concede that point, but I still stand by my statement that older people usually have a highly developed personality, view, and history compared to their younger counterparts. It's not only how a player chooses to portray their character but also how other characters view that character. If you're going the route of Gandalf or Saurfang, your mentality is fairly set from everything you've seen and your knowledge, compared to the younger characters, is usually considerably more advanced for a reason.

Those two also happen to be unique in their worlds, as I'm sure more 'senior' Eorzean characters would have to be if they're still running around swinging battle axes and getting involved in the drama and rivalries of younger folk, no? If young 'teenage' adventurers who are highly skilled have an issue with perhaps seeming a little too prevalent then wouldn't advanced-aged characters who know a lot and can still manage extraordinary feats of strength, courage, and/or magic also sour somewhat if there are too many of them?

But who says that ICly the older characters have to/are running around with axes in the thick of battle? There may be a some like that, even in the real world my old dance teacher who was in her late 60s was far more nimble and athletic than a vast majority of the populace because she has done it all her life and taken good care of her body.Â

That aside though, simply because their body/minds/power may not be at prime, doesn't mean that they don't still have new challenges and change in their life to make RPing with interesting and fun. And even if the character is set in their ways, all the change in the Eorzea over the past years is more than to fuel RP of their being confronted with such and their being forced to adapt or break.

One of my primary RP characters is an ex-sailor in his 50s, who has recently had to come to terms with his body no longer being able to take the toils of constant seafaring due to his age, and having to semi-'retire' onto the land. He has very few connections there but for his son, with whom has never been around for long. And yet he is a pretty gregarious personality. There is plenty of room for development, in all pretty much all areas. Just because someone isn't young and spry, doesn't meant they stop living. They don't need to act as an fountain of information, i.e. an NPC. In fact, relegating them to that singular role seems rather disrespectful to them as characters.

Arlas · **09-25-2013, 03:47 PM**

Keep in mind that due to the nature of the game you're going to see younger/20ish characters... When you get into the 50s-60s range, it starts to get a little eyebrow raising to see these guys out adventuring. So unless they're just side characters or the adventuring is OOC you probably won't see it.

Also the character creator itself, of course, and the lack of aged options.

Illira · **09-25-2013, 04:34 PM**

(09-25-2013, 03:47 PM)Arlas Wrote: Keep in mind that due to the nature of the game you're going to see younger/20ish characters... When you get into the 50s-60s range, it starts to get a little eyebrow raising to see these guys out adventuring. So unless they're just side characters or the adventuring is OOC you probably won't see it.

I would say that limiting your characters IC main history and/orÂ actionsÂ to the 'official ARR story' is severely limiting as to the kind of character that can be created and RPed. Not saying that it can't work for a lot of RP characters, but in a lot of cases, it should be taken with a grain of salt. While the events/characters seen and in the 'official story' factor in the world and its lore. Using them as a primary baseline for characters to be created from really limits the scope and extent to which Eorzea may be fleshed out. Not to mention that it kind of whacks out timelines and character interaction to rely on it for RP purpouses.

Personally, I've always taken MMOs official stories as lore/current events. Its PvE and backdrop for me. My RP characters rarely, if at all interact with it on a immediate/personal basis.

(09-25-2013, 03:47 PM)Arlas Wrote: Also the character creator itself, of course, and the lack of aged options.

Yeah... this is an issue. But it shouldn't be a roadblock. Imagination is a good thing! I say to use it!

IncubusManatee · **09-25-2013, 05:01 PM**

People usually play characters that are younger then themselves because they want to be that age I have noticed. Atleast anyone I have bothered to ask-usually picks younger characters due to the fact they would rather be at that age. Or playing a character "Lacking knowledge" is the other theorem. Overall I prefer playing characters older then myself, far more fun for me. Just hoping for that once chance to yell: "GET OFF MY LAWN!"

Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **09-25-2013, 05:02 PM**

(09-25-2013, 03:35 PM)Illira Wrote:
(09-24-2013, 11:53 PM)Siobhain Wrote:
(09-24-2013, 09:57 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(09-24-2013, 09:34 PM)Siobhain Wrote: Basically, one of the down points of it for a player is that playing an older individual sort of denotes that they are set in their ways. It's not really character development for the player anymore so much as helping others develop -their- characters. Romance, which isn't all that important, is probably no longer a viable option or interest. Conflict, being evil, rivalries all seem like they would be beneath a wiser, older individual.

I would be careful here, because old(er) certainly does not necessitate grumpy, or even wise.

That's true.

And age really doesn't equate to much except that with age, there are usually some inescapable physical changes. Slower or faster for some than others. So you two are right, I concede that point, but I still stand by my statement that older people usually have a highly developed personality, view, and history compared to their younger counterparts. It's not only how a player chooses to portray their character but also how other characters view that character. If you're going the route of Gandalf or Saurfang, your mentality is fairly set from everything you've seen and your knowledge, compared to the younger characters, is usually considerably more advanced for a reason.

Those two also happen to be unique in their worlds, as I'm sure more 'senior' Eorzean characters would have to be if they're still running around swinging battle axes and getting involved in the drama and rivalries of younger folk, no? If young 'teenage' adventurers who are highly skilled have an issue with perhaps seeming a little too prevalent then wouldn't advanced-aged characters who know a lot and can still manage extraordinary feats of strength, courage, and/or magic also sour somewhat if there are too many of them?

But who says that ICly the older characters have to/are running around with axes in the thick of battle? There may be a some like that, even in the real world my old dance teacher who was in her late 60s was far more nimble and athletic than a vast majority of the populace because she has done it all her life and taken good care of her body.Â

That aside though, simply because their body/minds/power may not be at prime, doesn't mean that they don't still have new challenges and change in their life to make RPing with interesting and fun. And even if the character is set in their ways, all the change in the Eorzea over the past years is more than to fuel RP of their being confronted with such and their being forced to adapt or break.

One of my primary RP characters is an ex-sailor in his 50s, who has recently had to come to terms with his body no longer being able to take the toils of constant seafaring due to his age, and having to semi-'retire' onto the land. He has very few connections there but for his son, with whom has never been around for long. And yet he is a pretty gregarious personality. There is plenty of room for development, in all pretty much all areas. Just because someone isn't young and spry, doesn't meant they stop living. They don't need to act as an fountain of information, i.e. an NPC. In fact, relegating them to that singular role seems rather disrespectful to them as characters.

I was directing most of that combat business to the comments about Saurfang, Gandalf, etc. and where they might be. Namely, who knows? Gandalf was a wizard in the LotR universe but he also pretty much when toe to toe with the Balrog and Saurfang was an Orc. ...I mean... Broxxigar was an Orc, and Saurfang and Brox are about on par in my eyes. I mean to say that if there are a lot of senior citizens doing back flips and punching beasts in the face it might not go over that well. I wish, primarily, that we had something like an average lifespan for races at the very least. Except for Hyur we can really only guess at lifespans which in turn means guessing at maturity and seniority.

I won't argue that they all have to be old and wise, they could be as immature, xenophobic, and unworldly as they might be in any other fantasy setting-- But I will say that it seems unlikely that too many of them are still active soldiers or pit fighters-- I guess mage-related things -seems- like it would fit better simply because I've been conditioned by NPCs and characters of other worlds that magic, like firearms and death, are the great equalizer.

LiadansWhisper · **09-25-2013, 05:46 PM**

(09-25-2013, 05:02 PM)Siobhain Wrote: I was directing most of that combat business to the comments about Saurfang, Gandalf, etc. and where they might be. Namely, who knows? Gandalf was a wizard in the LotR universe but he also pretty much when toe to toe with the Balrog and Saurfang was an Orc. ...I mean... Broxxigar was an Orc, and Saurfang and Brox are about on par in my eyes. I mean to say that if there are a lot of senior citizens doing back flips and punching beasts in the face it might not go over that well. I wish, primarily, that we had something like an average lifespan for races at the very least. Except for Hyur we can really only guess at lifespans which in turn means guessing at maturity and seniority.

I won't argue that they all have to be old and wise, they could be as immature, xenophobic, and unworldly as they might be in any other fantasy setting-- But I will say that it seems unlikely that too many of them are still active soldiers or pit fighters-- I guess mage-related things -seems- like it would fit better simply because I've been conditioned by NPCs and characters of other worlds that magic, like firearms and death, are the great equalizer.

Basically, part of being "old" normally comes with a gradual decline in your physical capabilities. Â An older person is going to, in general, have more difficulty with physical activities as compared to a younger person in the same sort of physical shape.

In extremely long-lived races, I'm not even sure calling someone who has lived for 100 years "old" would be accurate if their race lives, to say, 300 years. Â They might just be hitting middle-age, or their prime.

Do we even have concrete lifespans for each race?

Ildur · **09-25-2013, 05:49 PM**

I'm going to paraphrase something someone else in the forums said once: Remember that Player Characters are a subset of remarkable characters, who are a subset of all perceivable characters in the world, who are in turn a subset of all people living in Eorzea.
So while it might be true that most of the old people in Eorzea aren't combat capable, it doesn't need to hold true to most of the Player Characters. Unless a player decides to purposedly play an unremarkable character (it happens), there's no lore reason to not have an old badass. In fact, there are plenty of lore reasons to do so: namely, aether. Except for those who have low aether naturally, everyone is able to use magic to some extent. That's why every class and job has a special and flashy effects, and that's the only way you can justify someone being able to punch Titan in the knees and cause damage. If everyone can use aether to enhance their capabilites beyond the norm, then it is very likely that the aged people of Eorzea would be able of many feats as long as they had the training during their youth or as long as they keep fit.

For example, the leader of the Ala Mhigan refugees in Little Ala Mhigo is an old grizzled man. He wears an axe and he accompanies you in one particular quest to fight some enemies. He is not tired, winded nor wounded afterwards.

What is true is that they probably will not be as effective as someone with the same ammount of experience who is also younger. But that's getting into technical disadvantages: the oldies can fight too, and the game supports that idea.

Salty Lake · **09-25-2013, 05:55 PM**

(09-24-2013, 09:29 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(09-24-2013, 07:45 PM)Salty Lake Wrote: Here are two screencaps I took today that support my hypothesis that there are high-mortality rates for commoners (very light spoilers):

Aside from the death during childbirth and the understandable infant mortality rates (considering it doesn't look like Eorzea has things like NICU, and there are a lotÂ of things that can go wrong during pregnancy), honestly I think the greatest danger comes from being a mercenary or part of the military (or being an adventurer!). The thing with the 27 laborers killed by the coeurl seems like a fairly "freak accident", so to speak - you don't get powerful beasts like that every day. Keep in mind also that things might be more dangerous nowÂ than they were prior to the Calamity. We've got all that aether disrupting things and the elementals are peeved and things are just generally going very, very wrong in the world. This makes everything far riskier than it may have been 6 years ago, and it's possible that a lot of the problems we see NPCs running into while questing would not have been nearly as common back then.

Alrighty! Show me some screencaps suggesting that folks have long, healthy lives and I'll concede. I personally think freak monster attacks are the new normal, as there are plenty of Fates right outside of the cities. For the mean time, I'll assume life is hard and short for many people, based on the NPC whose wife died giving birth and daughter/grandchildren died of illness.

Re: the feudalism. I made it to Central Coerthas and there are lords and people serving them. That's where I encountered the NPC whose dialogue I screencapped. Not feudalism?

LiadansWhisper · **09-25-2013, 06:05 PM**

(09-25-2013, 05:55 PM)Salty Lake Wrote:
(09-24-2013, 09:29 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(09-24-2013, 07:45 PM)Salty Lake Wrote: Here are two screencaps I took today that support my hypothesis that there are high-mortality rates for commoners (very light spoilers):

Aside from the death during childbirth and the understandable infant mortality rates (considering it doesn't look like Eorzea has things like NICU, and there are a lotÂ of things that can go wrong during pregnancy), honestly I think the greatest danger comes from being a mercenary or part of the military (or being an adventurer!). The thing with the 27 laborers killed by the coeurl seems like a fairly "freak accident", so to speak - you don't get powerful beasts like that every day. Keep in mind also that things might be more dangerous nowÂ than they were prior to the Calamity. We've got all that aether disrupting things and the elementals are peeved and things are just generally going very, very wrong in the world. This makes everything far riskier than it may have been 6 years ago, and it's possible that a lot of the problems we see NPCs running into while questing would not have been nearly as common back then.

Alrighty! Â Show me some screencaps suggesting that folks have long, healthy lives and I'll concede. Â I personally think freak monster attacks are the new normal, as there are plenty of Fates right outside of the cities. Â For the mean time, I'll assume life is hard and short for many people, based on the NPC whose wife died giving birth and daughter/grandchildren died of illness.

Re: the feudalism. Â I made it to Central Coerthas and there are lords and people serving them. Â That's where I encountered the NPC whose dialogue I screencapped. Â Not feudalism?

Coerthas appears to be feudalistic from everything I saw from NPCs and quest texts. Â Especially as you follow the main storyline through the zone, it becomes very, very clear.

Naunet · **09-25-2013, 06:15 PM**

(09-25-2013, 05:55 PM)Salty Lake Wrote: Re: the feudalism. Â I made it to Central Coerthas and there are lords and people serving them. Â That's where I encountered the NPC whose dialogue I screencapped. Â Not feudalism?

In Coerthas, not all of Eorzea. Which would actually be a good reason for the high infant mortality observed in Coerthas NPCs, as the feudal society would likely leave most significant health care out of reach of anyone not born into the right family. It's entirely possible that lower class Ishgardians (or even just those born into the outer branches of a family) are significantly worse off than "lower class" Gridanians or Limsans or whathaveyou because of this. Ul'dah has a pretty socially stratified structure, with a large proportion of the wealth in the hands of a very few (heh, not at all unlike current real life situations), but that's different from feudalism and I'd be willing to bet a lot of the city's poverty is due to the influx of refugees. No clue what this means for groups who live outside of the main societal hubs in Thanalan, such as Seeker tribes. We know that one branch of the U tribe at least was looking for a way to revitalize their little settlement by opening up better trade lines to Ul'dah and such and allowing non-tribe merchants space in their town.

Sigyn Shieldbreaker · **09-25-2013, 06:19 PM**

(09-25-2013, 05:46 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-25-2013, 05:02 PM)Siobhain Wrote: I was directing most of that combat business to the comments about Saurfang, Gandalf, etc. and where they might be. Namely, who knows? Gandalf was a wizard in the LotR universe but he also pretty much when toe to toe with the Balrog and Saurfang was an Orc. ...I mean... Broxxigar was an Orc, and Saurfang and Brox are about on par in my eyes. I mean to say that if there are a lot of senior citizens doing back flips and punching beasts in the face it might not go over that well. I wish, primarily, that we had something like an average lifespan for races at the very least. Except for Hyur we can really only guess at lifespans which in turn means guessing at maturity and seniority.

I won't argue that they all have to be old and wise, they could be as immature, xenophobic, and unworldly as they might be in any other fantasy setting-- But I will say that it seems unlikely that too many of them are still active soldiers or pit fighters-- I guess mage-related things -seems- like it would fit better simply because I've been conditioned by NPCs and characters of other worlds that magic, like firearms and death, are the great equalizer.

Basically, part of being "old" normally comes with a gradual decline in your physical capabilities. Â An older person is going to, in general, have more difficulty with physical activities as compared to a younger person in the same sort of physical shape.

In extremely long-lived races, I'm not even sure calling someone who has lived for 100 years "old" would be accurate if their race lives, to say, 300 years. Â They might just be hitting middle-age, or their prime.

Do we even have concrete lifespans for each race?

I'm not sure. Last I saw we were still making some vague guesses at what races might live longer than other races. I mean, in the case of Elves many times they mature gods-know-when but they are still in pretty peak physical shape until they are nearly on their death bed. The usual explanation? Magic. That might apply to some races in Eorzea as well.

The thing, and I'll accept senior citizen superhero types regardless, but if the general mentality is going to be 'No, we will not accept your outstanding teenagers with their l33t skillz and some such' then should that mentality -not- apply to Eorzea's old folk? If our excuses are based off of our perception of teenagers, that they're too young and immature or what not to have worldly knowledge and elite combat prowess, isn't it safe to assume that there are likely as many if not more older individuals who suffer that same problem; taking the world as we know it as our example in both cases?

I don't want to see a bunch of people jumping on a bandwagon because they think that the people here will think it's the coolest thing since sliced bread only to find out in a week or two that suddenly all of those advocates despise the idea because 'too many people are doing it'. It's an epidemic, so I think it's fair to bring attention to the chances and considerations put into playing older characters rather than having people do them because they feel they'll be filling a niche that they -might- regret later.

John Spiegel · **09-25-2013, 06:19 PM**

(09-25-2013, 05:49 PM)Ildur Wrote: I'm going to paraphrase something someone else in the forums said once: Remember that Player Characters are a subset of remarkable characters, who are a subset of all perceivable characters in the world, who are in turn a subset of all people living in Eorzea.
So while it might be true that most of the old people in Eorzea aren't combat capable, it doesn't need to hold true to most of the Player Characters. Unless a player decides to purposedly play an unremarkable character (it happens), there's no lore reason to not have an old badass. In fact, there are plenty of lore reasons to do so: namely, aether. Except for those who have low aether naturally, everyone is able to use magic to some extent. That's why every class and job has a special and flashy effects, and that's the only way you can justify someone being able to punch Titan in the knees and cause damage. If everyone can use aether to enhance their capabilites beyond the norm, then it is very likely that the aged people of Eorzea would be able of many feats as long as they had the training during their youth or as long as they keep fit.

For example, the leader of the Ala Mhigan refugees in Little Ala Mhigo is an old grizzled man. He wears an axe and he accompanies you in one particular quest to fight some enemies. He is not tired, winded nor wounded afterwards.

What is true is that they probably will not be as effective as someone with the same ammount of experience who is also younger. But that's getting into technical disadvantages: the oldies can fight too, and the game supports that idea.

That's pretty much my reason to have JJ still kicking ass: Aether (and being too damn stubborn and not returning death's calls because death is a needy jerkface) Some characters have naturally high capabilities with such as you said (magic, kicking Ifrit in the junk, and magic again).

I do know of some PCs that are older and not as spry as their younger self, but would be capable of getting the slip on someone. Then there's others I know that have long since retired. Having aged "badasses" is just another category of old! Big Grin

(And I just really, really, really enjoy JJ >.>)

You also see the same gambit in younglings, those that suck at everything, those that do nothing, those that don't suck at one thing and those that don't suck at something else.

LiadansWhisper · **09-25-2013, 06:33 PM**

(09-25-2013, 06:15 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(09-25-2013, 05:55 PM)Salty Lake Wrote: Re: the feudalism. Â I made it to Central Coerthas and there are lords and people serving them. Â That's where I encountered the NPC whose dialogue I screencapped. Â Not feudalism?

In Coerthas, not all of Eorzea. Which would actually be a good reason for the high infant mortality observed in Coerthas NPCs, as the feudal society would likely leave most significant health care out of reach of anyone not born into the right family. It's entirely possible that lower class Ishgardians (or even just those born into the outer branches of a family) are significantly worse off than "lower class" Gridanians or Limsans or whathaveyou because of this. Ul'dah has a pretty socially stratified structure, with a large proportion of the wealth in the hands of a very few (heh, not at all unlike current real life situations), but that's different from feudalism and I'd be willing to bet a lot of the city's poverty is due to the influx of refugees. No clue what this means for groups who live outside of the main societal hubs in Thanalan, such as Seeker tribes. We know that one branch of the U tribe at least was looking for a way to revitalize their little settlement by opening up better trade lines to Ul'dah and such and allowing non-tribe merchants space in their town.

The NPC in question is a minor noble, so he should have had access to good healthcare, especially considering the quests covering escorting "Phurgions" (sp?) between strongholds.

Naunet · **09-25-2013, 06:41 PM**

(09-25-2013, 06:33 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: The NPC in question is a minor noble, so he should have had access to good healthcare, especially considering the quests covering escorting "Phurgions" (sp?) between strongholds.

A "minor noble" can mean a lot less than one may think. Many nobles lived just over the edge of poverty, their holding of land basically being the only thing securing their "status", and often you had minor nobles essentially demoting themselves to peasants when they realized they could not keep up with the financial demands of nobility.

Feudalism, nobility, and the noble life are not nearly as shiny as a lot of people often assume, and there is generally definite, severe sub-stratification within nobility that leaves some nobles with a lot and many with just barely enough.

[edit] Incidentally, we have not run into any NPCs from Ishgard who isn't nobility - again, bearing in mind the fact that nobility itself can have many different levels. I might be wrong, but if I'm recalling correctly (and nobility and feudalism are incredibly complex topics), simply becoming a knight tends to automatically grant you "noble" status - but you never actually get a lot of the perks that comes with being A Noble. You just get the name. So a lot of these "minor" nobles, soldiers, might very well be extremely "low class" in this context.

Salty Lake · **09-25-2013, 06:52 PM**

In the historic fiction I've read, there is a high infant mortality rate and high mortality rate in general for nobles under feudalism. Probably live longer than the peasants, but the fiction I've read regrettably doesn't detail much of peasant life.

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Eorzean Seniors

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes