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Anstarra · **12-06-2013, 07:28 AM**

I'm already rather happy about the amount of information that's been gathered. I'm gonna go with the whole Tribe > Sept > Breeding Group notion, for Seeker Tribes at least, since I haven't seen any objections to the proposal.

Also gonna work upon creating my own Sept, for whatever Tribe I decide that Anstarra belongs to... or maybe tie her in with someone else's! To be determined!

FreelanceWizard · **12-06-2013, 10:12 AM**

As an aside, a breeding group is synonymous with a territory or hunting ground, as Seekers only have one nunh per such location, and securing new territory is the primary means by which "new" nunh positions are created (dev post). I think "sept" instead of subtribe does sound a lot better. Smile

Of course, some (many?) septs may only have one territory, in which case one might as well just refer to the group as those in a territory of a given tribe.

Anstarra · **12-06-2013, 10:31 AM**

(12-06-2013, 10:12 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: As an aside, a breeding group is synonymous with a territory or hunting ground, as Seekers only have one nunh per such location, and securing new territory is the primary means by which "new" nunh positions are created (dev post). I think "sept" instead of subtribe does sound a lot better. Of course, some (many?) septs may only have one territory, in which case one might as well just refer to the group as those in a territory of a given tribe.

Indeed! Only the largest and most populous of septs could be expected to have multiple nunhs and thus breeding/hunting groups. By and large we can get by with Tribe and Sept alone. The third term is mainly useful, I expect, for large, well-developed player Tribes like the Hipparion Tribe on this site(which would in truth actually be like, major Septs in the global, all-encompassing Hipparion Tribe which would include players not directly tied to THEM) which might need sub-division within their ranks.

Naunet · **12-06-2013, 02:47 PM**

(12-06-2013, 10:12 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: As an aside, a breeding group is synonymous with a territory or hunting ground, as Seekers only have one nunh per such location, and securing new territory is the primary means by which "new" nunh positions are created (dev post). I think "sept" instead of subtribe does sound a lot better. Of course, some (many?) septs may only have one territory, in which case one might as well just refer to the group as those in a territory of a given tribe.

I don't think we can so easily say there is only one nunh per territory. Squeenix never explicitly states a rule on how many nunhs there are, save that "Depending on its size, a tribe may have multipleÂ nunhÂ (a ratio of oneÂ nunhÂ per ten to fifty females is average)" - which is pretty broad. Lore also uses the term "tribe" when discussing a single territory, so it's entirely possible that there are multiple "breeding groups" (not actually a term used by Squeenix) within a single location.

The Hipparion Tribe, for example - or at least, our player-created, Sagolii-roaming section of it - maintains two-ish nunhs in the tribe. There have been times when that number has dropped to one, which is the case now as the one of their nunh is missing and no one else has yet stepped up to the plate, for various reasons. It's actually been a point of conflict for some of our members, who feel as though the tribe's future is at risk, having experienced a dramatic loss of life due to the Calamity.

Anstarra · **12-06-2013, 05:43 PM**

(12-06-2013, 02:47 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(12-06-2013, 10:12 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: As an aside, a breeding group is synonymous with a territory or hunting ground, as Seekers only have one nunh per such location, and securing new territory is the primary means by which "new" nunh positions are created (dev post). I think "sept" instead of subtribe does sound a lot better. Of course, some (many?) septs may only have one territory, in which case one might as well just refer to the group as those in a territory of a given tribe.

I don't think we can so easily say there is only one nunh per territory. Squeenix never explicitly states a rule on how many nunhs there are, save that "Depending on its size, a tribe may have multipleÂ nunhÂ (a ratio of oneÂ nunhÂ per ten to fifty females is average)" - which is pretty broad. Lore also uses the term "tribe" when discussing a single territory, so it's entirely possible that there are multiple "breeding groups" (not actually a term used by Squeenix) within a single location.

The Hipparion Tribe, for example - or at least, our player-created, Sagolii-roaming section of it - maintains two-ish nunhs in the tribe. There have been times when that number has dropped to one, which is the case now as the one of their nunh is missing and no one else has yet stepped up to the plate, for various reasons. It's actually been a point of conflict for some of our members, who feel as though the tribe's future is at risk, having experienced a dramatic loss of life due to the Calamity.

Oh, I know 'breeding group' isn't an official term. 'Sept', neither. Square-Enix only talks about Tribes as distinct affairs, as if all members are the same, but as we know in an mmo where each player can create their own story this is impossible! Thus the deliberate splicing into Septs, which are discrete sub-sections of a given tribe. Your player-created, Sagolii-roaming section of it is, per this definition, one of numerous potential Septs of the Hipparion Tribe. After all, you wouldn't come down on another player for coming around and saying 'I want MY Hipparion Tribe to be THIS way, not THEIR way', would you? No, they'd be creating their own Sept.

Below that, WITHIN a Sept we're positing another division, using the concept of the Nunh as being the defining characteristic. Each such group would be just called a Breeding Group. Maybe this isn't necessary, but it still functions, especially if females restrict themselves or are restricted to a single Nunh for breeding purposes. Now, if you tell me that in your sept the females can choose either nunh (assuming both were still around) then the notion of 'Breeding Groups' becomes irrelevant. In which case we can stick with our adopted term Sept and just be happy with it.

Again, for any who missed earlier parts of the discussion, 'Sept' is an unofficial term (adopted over the course of this thread) meaning 'Sub-Tribe', essentially, since we'll never get the entire player-base to agree on a single suite of characteristics - physical or otherwise - for any given Tribe.

LeCard · **12-06-2013, 06:20 PM**

I would say that each group has a single Nuhn per hunting ground. I say this mainly because of the fact that the #1 way to become a nuhn is to defeat THE current nuhn. This tells me that each group has a single chosen Nuhn for that hunting ground. Now if the tribe is more mobile than what we see from the U tribe NPCs I suppose two or three groups could travel in close enough proximity to one another than females could move between the groups some what fluidly.

However, for the most part I would guess that tribes "set up shop" like the U tribe NPCs appear to have. This would mean that they stay put in the hunting ground and as they grow a potential nuhn will take up the task of spreading out and claiming a near by area (though that could mean something as far as 30-50 miles away) as a new breading ground and take nuhn status.

But it would be odd for any Tias to move between groups unless they think that the other groups nuhn is weaker(and they can win easier) than their groups nuhn. However, this could be seen as weak/cowardly since they are avoiding battle with their own nuhn. (such challenges may also not be accepted on the grounds that the Tia is not of their group, but this is just speculation.)

Onto the dispersion of 10-50 females per nuhn. Figure in what is likely 4-7 Tia in that group(based on birth rate) and you are talking about potentially 60ish people and any pets/livestock that need to be fed off a single hunting ground. I would imagine that food is at least a little scarce and feeding groups much larger than 100 people on of one hunting ground could be very difficult. (unless the tribe takes up farming, which just seems odd for most Miqo'te tribe for some reason) So this tells me that with the exception of a few groups that MAY have two nuhns who can get along well enough to share females in the breeding pool, most groups will probably start sending Tia out to find a new breeding ground when they get close to 50 females per nuhn.

I would then guess that the lucky Tia who secures such a hunting ground for the tribe would be granted a set of 10ish females to go set up the new "chapter" of the tribe. and with that the original group lessens their load of mouths to feed while the tribe gains more ground and strength.

FreelanceWizard · **12-06-2013, 06:53 PM**

(12-06-2013, 02:47 PM)Naunet Wrote: I don't think we can so easily say there is only one nunh per territory. Squeenix never explicitly states a rule on how many nunhs there are, save that "Depending on its size, a tribe may have multipleÂ nunhÂ (a ratio of oneÂ nunhÂ per ten to fifty females is average)" - which is pretty broad. Lore also uses the term "tribe" when discussing a single territory, so it's entirely possible that there are multiple "breeding groups" (not actually a term used by Squeenix) within a single location.

My argument is based on a series of dev posts. The original naming conventions post specifies the nunh to female ratio and the mechanism of challenge. However, this later post clarifies that, instead of creating a new tribe, a Seeker tia can secure new territory for the tribe and, in that way, become "the nunh of that area." This post notes that the territory needs to support around 20-50 females and a few tia. Also, every time nunh are mentioned by the devs, they refer to "the nunh" and not "a nunh," though I realize arguments based on wording are a bit weak when translation is involved.

At any rate, when we put these three posts together, it seems to me that the dev vision is that any tribe (at the overall "26 tribes" level) has multiple territories, each of which has one nunh. In that way, player flexibility in backstory is preserved, since everyone can have their own territory if they want. IMO, that doesn't screw up the Hipparion player-created lore, since those territories of the K tribe so created can have similar leadership, laws, traditions, etc. Even the use of the word "tribe" is fine because, as you note, SE has been rather loose with the terminology themselves, and it seems entirely reasonable a group of territories on friendly terms might refer to themselves as a "tribe." They might even have a certain degree of movement of people between territories and overlap of land depending on the personalities of the tribal leadership and nunhs involved. Going somewhat further afield of stated lore, one could even refer to "territory" as just "the females with a particular nunh," which is more or less true but ignores the dev post indication that territory is synonymous with hunting ground. (An interesting implication of these dev posts is that tribal Seekers largely remain hunter-gatherers, but that's a discussion for another thread. Smile

)

That said, in this thread, the player supposition seems to be that we can call a grouping of related territories a "sept" (if nothing else OOCly to help prevent nomenclatural confusion).

Also, I seem to recall us having this conversation before on another thread... Smile

Naunet · **12-06-2013, 07:39 PM**

(12-06-2013, 06:53 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Also, I seem to recall us having this conversation before on another thread...

Yes, we did, and I maintain that there is not clear enough information for me to feel the need to retcon the large amount of organization that would need to be adjusted for the "single nunh per territory" idea. We chose two because it made things easier when bringing in new people and when we were originally organizing things, and two it shall be.

Anstarra · **12-06-2013, 09:26 PM**

(12-06-2013, 07:39 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(12-06-2013, 06:53 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Also, I seem to recall us having this conversation before on another thread...

Yes, we did, and I maintain that there is not clear enough information for me to feel the need to retcon the large amount of organization that would need to be adjusted for the "single nunh per territory" idea. We chose two because it made things easier when bringing in new people and when we were originally organizing things, and two it shall be.

Indeed, and I don't think any retcon or change is needed either way. After all, each player could theoretically want to play a Nunh, so we need to be as flexible as possible. There's no reason your Sept (or Tribe, or division of the Hipparion Tribe, however you wanna call it) couldn't have multiple Nunhs. And thus, theoretically, breeding groups, though really that's the most loose nomenclature; in truth it's not REALLY needed, except insofar as some will insist that 'their' kind of Sept will only have ONE Nunh per hunting ground. In THEIR vision, Breeding Groups could also be called Villages, or Packs, or whatever. But if your Sept has interchangeable breeding between the two Nunhs (especially if they live in the same area) then Breeding Group is not a necessary term.

Sept remains so, though, to avoid nomenclature confusion with Tribe, which includes ALL people under that letter =3

S'zhuto · **05-04-2015, 10:23 PM**

I'm new around these parts, both to the forums and to the game, but I'd like to throw my own two cents into this little project if you do not mind.

I have just created a thread which can be found HERE.

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Seeker of the Sun Tribes

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes