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Kieron Lohengrin · **12-16-2013, 03:26 AM**

We don't know what state the overall changes to quest / leve rewards and crafting supplies will leave the economy in. Raw mat supply is going up, there will be an influx of more gil from the dungeon changes and leve rewards, tomestone costs for philo crafts are going down.

Squeenix's mistake was gating all the cost in the initial land purchase. They should've staggered it out for QoL services once you got your land - instead of making it a flat 200mil for the lot, they should've made it 50 mil for the lot, 50 mil for airship garage, 50 mil for retainer / market board / GC / teleport / NPC stores accessibility, and so on.

Rinh Hallani · **12-16-2013, 04:35 AM**

(12-16-2013, 12:37 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I've already expressed my opinion about this on the official forums, but to say that I'm extremely disappointed - near to heartbroken - by these completely unfeasible housing prices would be very accurate.

Mmyeah, it's certainly killed a lot of my enthusiasm. 20 million gil; maybe in a couple months we could muster that if the market doesn't continue to crash? Although I expect everyone will be trying to sell and extremely reluctant to buy as they grip their gil like misers to save for their own house, so, who knows. But 20 million is still the smallest plot in the least desirable area and I thought I'd read it's not much bigger than the mog house in FFXI. If that's true, well, it'll be fun trying to cram 50+ people into it at once. Or as is more likely, we won't bother with housing at all.

I know some people don't care about housing, and that's fine, but as an RPer it was something myself and my FC were really excited about. Not so much now.

(12-16-2013, 03:26 AM)Kieron Lohengrin Wrote: Squeenix's mistake was gating all the cost in the initial land purchase. They should've staggered it out for QoL services once you got your land - instead of making it a flat 200mil for the lot, they should've made it 50 mil for the lot, 50 mil for airship garage, 50 mil for retainer / market board / GC / teleport / NPC stores accessibility, and so on.

That makes a lot more sense. You get the house and spend your hard earned gil upgrading and decorating it.

Darkfae · **12-16-2013, 06:08 AM**

Even though I'm trying to keep some optimism about the situation, I want to throw out here that the talk of huge FCs being the bad guys is kinda baseless.

A few days ago, I was speaking to someone who is a member of an FC that has almost 400 people in it, with at least ~100 those 100% active, likely more; at the time, I didn't ask for exact numbers, because I didn't care. I looked at their FC on the Lodestone, and I knew how many active Binding Coil groups they had. As an FC, over the past few months, they only pulled together just over 30m gil - I don't think they played the markets the way Ashren and his group did before they crashed.

Sadly, I've been watching the markets for the past week or so, working on flipping Philosophies for gil, and the market is steadily getting lower as more people reach fifty, grind dungeons or grind out gathering professions and sell the materials which was the other profitable market I was watching. I'm guessing more and more people were doing such things in anticipation of getting FC housing and getting furniture made.

I think there were a few major flaws in how Squeenix came to their numbers.

The largest, most glaring one in the hours before the servers came down for maintenance is that I don't think they did another huge purge of gil sellers and bots before running their final math crunches to create the numbers they posted. I had a very hard time maintaining any sort of conversation in tells tonight because every third or fourth tell seemed to be a damn gil seller offering me a Christmas special; the frequency has nearly tripled, it feels, since the patch notes were posted. It's like these "companies" have been sitting on this gil just waiting for these metrics to be announced so they could try and lure the desperate into purchasing their wares - if an FC had everyone buy just a little bit of gil, it might be harder to trace, right? *rolls eyes*

I also think their maths may have been off in general. I'm hoping it wasn't horridly basic, such as flat out amount of gil in circulation/active accounts=average amount of gil player possesses. This doesn't factor in players who may have quit the game but had bought larger chunks of time, or forgot to cancel their subscriptions, etcetera, and aren't actually part of the active population. As mentioned before, if they didn't do a massive bot/gil seller purge, this means the amount of gil in circulation was inflated to begin with, and it also gives skew to the number of active players, because they're not really players. Hell, even if their maths weren't as basic as that, there's a chance they didn't look at these things and still ended up with skewed numbers!

Jokingly, I've been saying they did their maths in Yen, and if they'd done it in USD, we'd all be fine. Oddly, someone challenged me to give them actual numbers in this, and the results were kinda disturbing.Â If Squeenix had used USD for their housing cost maths instead of Yen, the cheapest small house would start at 194,460 gil while the most expensive large house would start at 3,038,438 gil. With a competitive auction system, these prices would be great, and we'd still see a ton of gil drain out of the economy because people would be fighting over houses, and it would be glorious and the way the Twelve intended. *coughs* >.>

That aside, I do think they messed up somewhere in their economic equations. If even the Japanese servers are bitching, they did something wrong, and they're going to realise it sooner or later. Especially when people just don't use the one thing they've put the most effort into the past few months (okay, it might not be the one thing, but it seems to me like they've dumped a ton of time and effort into the housing zones).

(12-16-2013, 03:26 AM)Kieron Lohengrin Wrote: Squeenix's mistake was gating all the cost in the initial land purchase. They should've staggered it out for QoL services once you got your land - instead of making it a flat 200mil for the lot, they should've made it 50 mil for the lot, 50 mil for airship garage, 50 mil for retainer / market board / GC / teleport / NPC stores accessibility, and so on.

I do like that idea better. Staggering out the costs a bit more, though 50m for each service is a bit much. General staggering would have been a much better idea overall, rather than tossing all of the money down on the lot from go. It would have given FCs more options about how to handle the situation rather than making us have to sit here and go "Okay, so how do we come up with these millions?" and figure out a timeline that's much longer than any of us expected.

As much as I'd like to think the changes to the various quests and such are going to give us more gil...I don't seeing it being enough to handle these costs for FCs. Not for casual FCs, at least, and maybe not even for hardcore FCs without a lot more work than they already do. It will help, sure, but I doubt it will be enough to go from being able to make a couple million in a few months to tens or hundreds of millions.

Ultimately, I hope they adjust the pricing of the plots. Either by just making them more affordable, or by going to a staggered system like Kieron suggested. My FC is still going to actively work on making money, even though currently there are only a few of us, with the idea that we'll look at where the fund is at when the 90 day decay marker hits; hopefully, we can look at it sooner because Squeenix realises it's mistake and corrects it.

Rinh Hallani · **12-16-2013, 09:59 AM**

There was a live letter this morning going through the patch notes and in particular addressing housing prices.

Quote:Reinheartv: YoshiP is saying it was set this way so players donâ€™t buy out all the lands right away and end up in situation where none is available. RMT estimated gil has been removed from their amount, they checked how much gil the FCâ€™s have and got the estimates. with battle alone you should be able to earn 15000-18000, little bit over 20000 gil with role bonus every day. If you farm 7 days thatâ€™s good amount X number of members. Itâ€™s set so players can buy in 3 month time. He says again he will look at situation and make adjustments. The information posted on the patch notes it the highest amount and most likely not much people will buy, he wants people to use this as example to have players talk over how to gain the gil to purchase

I don't know about the rest of you but I doubt every single person in my FC is going to spend three months farming daily. We work, have families and, you know, would like to RP and enjoy other aspects of the game.

Zeraia · **12-16-2013, 10:57 AM**

(12-16-2013, 09:59 AM)Rinh Hallani Wrote: There was a live letter this morning going through the patch notes and in particular addressing housing prices.

Quote:Reinheartv: YoshiP is saying it was set this way so players donâ€™t buy out all the lands right away and end up in situation where none is available. RMT estimated gil has been removed from their amount, they checked how much gil the FCâ€™s have and got the estimates. with battle alone you should be able to earn 15000-18000, little bit over 20000 gil with role bonus every day. If you farm 7 days thatâ€™s good amount X number of members. Itâ€™s set so players can buy in 3 month time. He says again he will look at situation and make adjustments. The information posted on the patch notes it the highest amount and most likely not much people will buy, he wants people to use this as example to have players talk over how to gain the gil to purchase

I don't know about the rest of you but I doubt every single person in my FC is going to spend three months farming daily. We work, have families and, you know, would like to RP and enjoy other aspects of the game.

This thought process right here, that YoshiP expressed, just enrages me. 7 days a week. Three months. They're expecting people to buy it in -three- months. Not in a month. Not in even two.

You want to extend your content? Release it three months later then. Don't give me bullshit about extending content. Don't give me bullshit about RMT and legacy gil. This is just balls-out stupid. You're locking out low-hours players out of an advertised part of the game altogether, one that has been advertised since the beginning of 2.0. I'm through offering suggestions when their thought process from the start has been flawed.

I'll see how SE handles it. From what I hear, if FC housing is like this, then they're expecting the same thing from Personal Housing. 3 months to farm gil for a house indeed.

Darkfae · **12-16-2013, 12:14 PM**

Quote:Reinheartv: YoshiP is saying it was set this way so players donâ€™t buy out all the lands right away and end up in situation where none is available. RMT estimated gil has been removed from their amount, they checked how much gil the FCâ€™s have and got the estimates. with battle alone you should be able to earn 15000-18000, little bit over 20000 gil with role bonus every day. If you farm 7 days thatâ€™s good amount X number of members. Itâ€™s set so players can buy in 3 month time. He says again he will look at situation and make adjustments. The information posted on the patch notes it the highest amount and most likely not much people will buy, he wants people to use this as example to have players talk over how to gain the gil to purchase

This actually makes me wonder if they're looking at their US markets closely at all. Cus these are more like the US hardcore gamers, and the typical Japanese gamer; I could be mistaken, but from everything I've seen and been told, the average Japanese FFXIV player is much closer to our "hardcore" FFXIV player - they are the ones who grind out a whole bunch of dungeons every night and get in their time in Binding Coil every night, and min-max their five - ten hours online. There's fewer casuals over in the Japanese markets, because their playstyle is just different than ours is, making it almost the reverse of what it is here.

They're not taking the casual gamer market into consideration like...at all. On my good health days, I can play a lot of FFXIV, and I'll do a lot of dungeoning and if I get lucky with item drops, I might make the kind of money they're talking about...but I can't do that every day, and I do like to do more than just grind out dungeons and such. But yes, a casual gamer - which is likely a lot of their US market, maybe not most but a good chunk - isn't going to want to do that every day; and that's not justÂ RPers, I'm talking the casual gamer crowd across the board. People with jobs, school, or both and people with medical conditions that just can't game that much even if they can't go to work or school, plus whatever offline social obligations/desires people in general have.

I do think they've gone about the situation inaccurately, if this information is true. But it may be another one of these instances where it was a cultural difference that created the perspective, and something got lost in translation. They really need to start recognising the differences in playstyles, if that's what's happening (again), and analyse things a bit differently from all the angles...

Rinh Hallani · **12-16-2013, 01:06 PM**

(12-16-2013, 12:14 PM)Darkfae Wrote: This actually makes me wonder if they're looking at their US markets closely at all. Cus these are more like the US hardcore gamers, and the typical Japanese gamer; I could be mistaken, but from everything I've seen and been told, the average Japanese FFXIV player is much closer to our "hardcore" FFXIV player - they are the ones who grind out a whole bunch of dungeons every night and get in their time in Binding Coil every night, and min-max their five - ten hours online. There's fewer casuals over in the Japanese markets, because their playstyle is just different than ours is, making it almost the reverse of what it is here.

I thought that as well, but from the chat during the livestream and this post on the official forums, even the Japanese players are doing a spit take on the prices. So I'm not sure who they think they're pleasing with this.

LiadansWhisper · **12-16-2013, 03:30 PM**

(12-16-2013, 10:57 AM)Zeraia Wrote: This thought process right here, that YoshiP expressed, just enrages me. 7 days a week. Three months. They're expecting people to buy it in -three- months. Not in a month. Not in even two.

You want to extend your content? Release it three months later then. Don't give me bullshit about extending content. Don't give me bullshit about RMT and legacy gil. This is just balls-out stupid. You're locking out low-hours players out of an advertised part of the game altogether, one that has been advertised since the beginning of 2.0. I'm through offering suggestions when their thought process from the start has been flawed.

I'll see how SE handles it. From what I hear, if FC housing is like this, then they're expecting the same thing from Personal Housing. 3 months to farm gil for a house indeed.

This is so how I feel about it, too. o_o Â So, SO much this.

Suisei'to · **12-16-2013, 03:57 PM**

It's like I'm really playing an old school MMO.

Edit: Actually, I have more to say about this.

From the get go FFXIV has had the mentality of a Old School MMO with Modern upgrades. This has extended into the gear grind, Coil raiding (Especially Turn 4 and 5), the extensive crafting, the plans for PvP and now it's been extended into housing. I don't find the price point shocking given the nature of the MMO being crafted.

So, housing is going to be expensive and is unlikely to drop below a 10mil price point. That just means that the FCs that do manage the feat (Especially the large mansions) have accomplished something big together. Is it any different than Coil raiding? It's an advertised part of the game that anyone that puts the time into it can accomplish with a talented group of individuals. Housing is the same way except not in a Raiding context.

I'm sure PvP has the same mentality, a long term investment that pays out in accomplishment. In the end it's about fostering a community of like minded players and forging something together. Much like the RP-C is for us.Â

I suppose the best way to think of it is that there are four types of End Game in FFXIV:

Raiding
PvP
RP
Crafting (Housing)

Rinh Hallani · **12-16-2013, 04:31 PM**

But gathering gil is a monotonous time sink which requires little to no skill. Crafting and playing the market board, ok, that perhaps takes a bit more thought but what YP described was dailies or running dungeons ad nauseum. I already have a real life job where I perform tasks I don't particularly enjoy for a small monetary return; I don't want a job in a game too.

I'm also not sure your comparison is right since the prices we're railing against are just for the plot of land. Building the house, furnishing and decorating it, extending and expanding; now those are things I can agree should require a lot of effort. I think the price of plots is more akin to being asked an exorbitant entrance fee or doing a horribly long quest chain (Gates of Ahn'Qiraj anyone?) before you can even access a raid. And for the record, I'd balk at that too.

Suisei'to · **12-16-2013, 04:36 PM**

The big difference is the back loaded difficulty (Raid) vs front loaded difficulty (housing).
Ultimately, this is the nature of the beast. It could change in the future but for now it's going to take a lot of man hours to hammer out what's needed for housing.

LiadansWhisper · **12-16-2013, 04:40 PM**

(12-16-2013, 04:36 PM)Suisei Wrote: The big difference is the back loaded difficulty (Raid) vs front loaded difficulty (housing).
Ultimately, this is the nature of the beast. It could change in the future but for now it's going to take a lot of man hours to hammer out what's needed for housing.

It doesn't have to be the "nature of the beast." Â That's kind of the point people are making. Â And it shouldn't be the "nature of the beast."

And no, it's not the same as a raid. Â I pay for this content, and I may never get to even see it. Â Not ever. Â Because it's so far out of reach that it might as well not exist.

Rinh Hallani · **12-16-2013, 04:43 PM**

(12-16-2013, 04:36 PM)Suisei Wrote: The big difference is the back loaded difficulty (Raid) vs front loaded difficulty (housing).
Ultimately, this is the nature of the beast. It could change in the future but for now it's going to take a lot of man hours to hammer out what's needed for housing.

Yeah, which is why I think they've gone about it completely the wrong way. Much more satisfying to reach small milestones as you go on rather than seeing one seemingly insurmountable goal. Welp, all I can do is continue to voice my opposition in the appropriate channels and hope they change their minds about this.

Qhora Bajihri · **12-16-2013, 04:50 PM**

What about when it's 300 mil for the lot and 300 mil for the airship and 300 mil for the retainer?

Ha!

I'm not too too worried about it, because it's logical for them to start this way and then slash the prices dramatically and appropriately as the system gets going and they see a more practical version of how things will actually work.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was something like 'Well, launch was way more popular than we expected. Let's assume housing is going to be popular far, far beyond our means to distribute it effectively.' And thus, ridiculous pricing.

The other thing is there are going to be people who can afford these prices, and I'm going on the assumption that there are actually quite a lot of them, but that none of them are going to be vocal about it at all, so will appear to be in the minority even if they're not.

My first thought wasn't "This is impossible," but "This is going to take a lot of work," which is probably also what was intended.

What isn't logical is them not releasing these prices far in advance of 'a couple days before patch' and them not expecting a significant backlash. While I don't actually think having ridiculous prices on these things is problematic, especially with the exceeding likelihood that they'll adjust it to reasonable levels as reality makes itself apparent, there are far, far, far better and less upsetting ways to introduce something like this slowly so that it's not bumrushed by the entirety of the way-more-people-than-we-expected population. The way they have done it, while I'm not personally demoralized, should have been obvious that it would instill significant frustration in the player base.

LiadansWhisper · **12-16-2013, 04:56 PM**

(12-16-2013, 04:50 PM)Darien Cadell Wrote: My first thought wasn't "This is impossible," but "This is going to take a lot of work," which is probably also what was intended.

Then you haven't actually looked at the markets recently. Â >.>

Shard markets are gone. Â Crystal markets are basically gone, too. Â The Cluster market is okay, but nothing of what it once was. Â Tomestones are under 18k, and I saw a HQ Vanya chest on the AH for 129k. Â I even saw a set of HQ Vanya breeches on the AH for less money than it takes to buy the materials to make it. -_-

SE has let the bots go on for so long that our once thriving economy has basically tanked. Â Taking all of this money out of circulation (which is what they're doing - because even if people don't have the money for housing now, most are going to avoid spending as much as possible to try to save up every last gil in hopes of saving up enough for a house) is not going to help. Â For that matter, SE was saying that Furniture would be the saving grace of the economy - that many people would want to buy the furniture to furnish their house. Â Well, how exactly is that going to work when only 1% of people can actually afford a house?

So beyond mindless grinding of dungeons and somehow managing to come out with no repair bills, I really don't see how it's possible to save up this amount of gil in any decent amount of time. Â I did the math and by our current rate of savings, it would take my FC five years to save up for the smallest plot of land. Â Five years. Â Two and a half if we managed to catch a plot when it hit 50% before anyone else got it.

How is that even reasonable? Â I mean, seriously?

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Demoralizing Demand for Housing

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