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Naunet · **01-18-2014, 05:25 PM**

(01-18-2014, 02:38 PM)AvalonBright Wrote: They're cats. They're not wolves, they're not humans with ears, they're cats.

If they were cats, they would look like this.

They decidedly do not. They are not cats.

(01-18-2014, 02:38 PM)AvalonBright Wrote: But people that just dismiss their entire racial identify for some kind of "head canon"...Just play a Hyur.

This is about the shallowest interpretation of miqo'te culture I've ever seen, to be honest. "Cat" is not their culture.

Twinflame · **01-18-2014, 05:31 PM**

(01-18-2014, 02:38 PM)AvalonBright Wrote: But people that just dismiss their entire racial identify for some kind of "head canon"...Just play a Hyur.

The racial identity to me is less about being a kitty and more about the tribal background and cultural heritage. There's a lot more to Miqo'te lore than fuzzy tails and purring, so it's a little short-sighted to tell people that the one acceptable reason to play a Miqo'te is to be a cat.

Kailia · **01-18-2014, 06:24 PM**

My view on Miqo'te is this. They are a race of humanoid cats. They evolved similarly to humans who started out as apes. Over time they stood upright, lost most of the fur, except the hair on the heads, and their tails and ears.

Their bodies are decidedly a lot more athletic than your typical Hyur and other races. They live in a tribal culture, but I do believe they would still retain their racial demeanor of being cat-like. You see it even in their emotes. When my miqo'te gets furious, her tail stands up and fuzzes out, ears flatten and she looks like an angry cat that happened to have a human-like features.

So I tend to play my character very feline-like. Be it climbing, playing, or whatever. She's a wild spirit that is adventurous. She even has been known to stalk little animals like butterflies and such. If I wanted to RP a human, I'd have a Hyur. In fact I do have a couple Hyur characters. Instead I rolled a Miqo'te who is a cat who happens to have human-like features.

So there are people who prefer playing humans with tails. And then there's those like myself who play cats with human features. Neither side should be telling the other they play the race right or wrong. It's up to the individual's own interpretations. Square has given us some pretty good in game examples of miqo'te as well. From the U tribe's growling, the keeper's "meow" instead of "now", scenes were miqo'te do leaping jumps.

I definitely do believe miqo'te embrace their feline aspects. And why shouldn't they? Miqo'te are graceful, agile, and are outstanding hunters. So I end my post with... meow!Â Thumbsup

AvalonBright · **01-18-2014, 07:55 PM**

(01-18-2014, 05:03 PM)Kendha Wrote: Not sure it's fair to say that those qualities you just described (rubbing against people, hissing, etc.) is in any way, shape, or form playing up to the Miqo'te's "cultural identity." They have cat-like features, but they're not housecats. Feel free to espouse those qualities if you so desire - nobody should be telling you how to play your character - but I also don't want to hear that those who don't "might as well be Hyur." There are many interesting aspects of Miqo'te society, including what players have created for their individual tribes and such, and it's all a lot more involved and interesting than simply "they're cats."

Fair enough. I should have said "they're felines." I didn't mean to infer that because Ashe purrs/hisses/etc that every miqo'te does. I think in particular the Seekers are probably much wilder and more like big cats compared to Keepers too, and I know there's a couple camps that certainly seem to play that aspect of them up.

Regardless though, they're quite clearly Felis Sapiens or something, however you want to call it. There's pretty clearly no canine influence or any other sort of mammal beyond humans + a feline of some kind. What *kind* of feline they act like almost certainly varies from group to group and across individuals like any human, but apart from that. *shrug*

I feel like I may be coming off a bit demanding in saying "RP like I say so!" but it's more that I just can't see why people'd say otherwise. Individuals aside, the game has plenty of examples of how miqo'te act, and when someone tries to say their headcanon involves the entire race acting un-catlike, well. It's just objectively wrong. Do what you want with your own character but don't try saying the whole race has nothing to do with felines!

Naunet · **01-18-2014, 10:48 PM**

There's a single joke NPC with the World's Most Annoying Speech Impediment and a couple emotes (mostly just the /pose) that play up the "catgirl fetish" thing. Aside from that, their ears do not look like cat ears, their tails are not a trait exclusive to cats, nor are the slit pupils of Seekers, and they certainly don't refer to themselves as cats. That's not to say Squee didn't intend them to be the "catgirl/guy race", because obviously they did (being a Japanese company, they're practically obligated to play to that fetish). However, I think you go too far in trying to claim that their cultural identity revolves around being... cats. They're not cats. They're bipedal humanoids with an extra limb (not unlike monkeys, though it's not as prehensile it seems) and mobile ears set on the tops of their skulls rather than on the sides. And their cultural identity revolves more around their actual culture than it does around some perceived notion of them being sentient cats.

It's extremely presumptuous of you to tell people who don't rp their miqo'te as cats incarnate that they may as well just roleplay hyur. I'd hazard that all of us who roleplay miqo'te chose to do so for very good reason, that those reasons differ for all of us, and that those reasons are more than enough for us to not to want to roleplay as hyur.

Regarding miqo'te evolutionary history - it's much more likely that allÂ of the humanoid races on Eorzea (particularly our playable races) share a common ancestor.Â

Also, humans did not evolve from apes; they share a common ancestor. That is a common misconception that I simply must address!

ansemaru · **01-18-2014, 11:00 PM**

I think it's rather silly to go ALL MIQO'TE SIMILARITIES TO CATS ARE ENTIRELY COINCIDENTAL, THERE IS NO CONNECTIONS BETWEEN THEM AND CATS OTHER THAN THE DEVELOPERS THINKING CATGIRLS ARE CUTE. The visual similarities are there, the behavioral similarities are there. Going "Miqo'tes are nothing like cats" is being willfully obtuse.

And as for "all the playable races must share a common ancestor", I do and don't agree. There are enough physical similarities for that to make sense, but we should keep in mind that parallel evolution is a thing that happens- two entirely disparate organisms can end up with remarkably similar body plans because said body plan is most effective for their ecological niche- and there are numerous sentient races that patently don't share a common primate ancestor with hyurs et al. There's no way Amalj'aa, Mamool Ja, Ixal, Sahagins, Qiqirns, or even Sylphs come from the same immediate primate ancestors. There's precedent for Miqo'te not having a common ancestor with elezen, roegadyn, hyur, and lalafell.

Kendha'to · **01-18-2014, 11:13 PM**

(01-18-2014, 07:55 PM)AvalonBright Wrote:
(01-18-2014, 05:03 PM)Kendha Wrote: Not sure it's fair to say that those qualities you just described (rubbing against people, hissing, etc.) is in any way, shape, or form playing up to the Miqo'te's "cultural identity." They have cat-like features, but they're not housecats. Feel free to espouse those qualities if you so desire - nobody should be telling you how to play your character - but I also don't want to hear that those who don't "might as well be Hyur." There are many interesting aspects of Miqo'te society, including what players have created for their individual tribes and such, and it's all a lot more involved and interesting than simply "they're cats."

Fair enough. I should have said "they're felines." I didn't mean to infer that because Ashe purrs/hisses/etc that every miqo'te does. I think in particular the Seekers are probably much wilder and more like big cats compared to Keepers too, and I know there's a couple camps that certainly seem to play that aspect of them up.

Regardless though, they're quite clearly Felis Sapiens or something, however you want to call it. There's pretty clearly no canine influence or any other sort of mammal beyond humans + a feline of some kind. What *kind* of feline they act like almost certainly varies from group to group and across individuals like any human, but apart from that. *shrug*

I feel like I may be coming off a bit demanding in saying "RP like I say so!" but it's more that I just can't see why people'd say otherwise. Individuals aside, the game has plenty of examples of how miqo'te act, and when someone tries to say their headcanon involves the entire race acting un-catlike, well. It's just objectively wrong. Do what you want with your own character but don't try saying the whole race has nothing to do with felines!

Mmh.. I think we agree with each other, at the root of it. I describe Ken as having "wolven" qualities, but that doesn't mean I think he is, in fact, canine. I think the design intent for FFXI's Mithra was pretty obviously, "Hay guise, let's make a cat race." And, let's face it, Miqo'te are the Eorzean analogue for Mithra; I think it's a bit disingenuous to argue otherwise. There are plenty of differences, mind you, but all of our current playable races have their roots (on an OOC level, anyway) in the races of that other FF MMO.

At the same time, though, there is a reason why people tend to downplay those similarities, and that is because it's very easy to fall into this cutesy, yarn-chasing, "nyan nyan" trap that is the bane of the folks who prefer to invest more heavily in the more tribal or even outright feral aspects of the race. Not that there's anything inherently wrong, I feel, with - y'know - being cute if that's how someone chooses to play, but there are a lot of Miqo'te roleplayers who simply don't want the race as a whole to be thrown into that category.

Naunet · **01-18-2014, 11:13 PM**

(01-18-2014, 11:00 PM)ansemaru Wrote: And as for "all the playable races must share a common ancestor", I do and don't agree. There are enough physical similarities for that to make sense, but we should keep in mind that parallel evolution is a thing that happens

I didn't say must. I said, and I quote, "much more likely", in part because it takes a heckÂ of a lot to get something from quadruped to biped and because the playable races do seem to share similar geographical origins (convergent evolution usually is applied to two species who do not share geographical space). However, we do not have any lore that dates back to the millions of years ago we'd need in order to make any truly informed statements so... as I said, "much more likely". Not must.

Also, there was no need to try and condense my post into some childish all caps summary that doesn't actually characterize the content of my post. I never said the similarities are coincidental and that there's no connections. Please cease putting words in my mouth. I was simply trying to make the point that what some see as purely feline, others can interpret differently and to different degrees. Once again: while there may be cat-like aspects to them, their identity as the race of miqo'te does not hinge on them being cats. Their identity is much more strongly tied to their unique family-group societal structures and the cultures surrounding them, rather than purrs and meows and chasing yarn.

I await whatever inaccurate reduction of this response you're going to condense my reply into with... unease.

Twinflame · **01-18-2014, 11:19 PM**

(01-18-2014, 11:00 PM)ansemaru Wrote: And as for "all the playable races must share a common ancestor", I do and don't agree. There are enough physical similarities for that to make sense, but we should keep in mind that parallel evolution is a thing that happens- two entirely disparate organisms can end up with remarkably similar body plans because said body plan is most effective for their ecological niche- and there are numerous sentient races that patently don't share a common primate ancestor with hyurs et al. There's no way Amalj'aa, Mamool Ja, Ixal, Sahagins, Qiqirns, or even Sylphs come from the same immediate primate ancestors. Â There's precedent for Miqo'te not having a common ancestor with elezen, roegadyn, hyur, and lalafell.

My own point of view on this -- not my opinion, but what I've chosen to think based on the story presented to me, in which I am either correct or incorrect and willing to discuss it -- is that all the player races are in fact the same species. They are different races of the same species, that species being human. There are references to the "races of man" and "mankind" in-game, and the physiological differences of the player characters (even Roe versus Lalafel) are minor compared to those between the "races of man" and the beast tribes.

Put simply: player characters are all humans and the beast tribes are not, thus the distinction. Player characters share an single ancestor. The beast tribes have alternative origins. That's why they're beast tribes.

This is why I'm confident in saying that Miqo'te are primarily human and secondarily beastly. The beast is there, but it's subservient to the human-ness.

Jana · **01-18-2014, 11:42 PM**

It's been a long time since college biology so correct me if I'm wrong, but for all of the races to be the same species, wouldn't they have to be able to all produce viable offspring with one another? We've seen examples of NPCs that are half Sun Seeker and half Moon Keeper, but until we see an NPC who is, say, half Hyur Midlander and half Elezen Duskwight, or at least hear about such a case, I wouldn't be able follow the same line of thinking.

More on-topic, I think it's entirely possible that the level of "cat-ness" of a Miqo'te is something that's on an individual level, not a species/race/clan/tribal one. The NPC that says "meow" instead of "now" is very obviously a Moon Keeper but she is, as far as I know, the only Miqo'te and the only Keeper to speak in that specific way. Maybe it's something common to the Molkot family, but I don't think we can say "All Miqo'te speak/act/feel like so-and-so."

ansemaru · **01-18-2014, 11:42 PM**

Actually, "beast tribe" has less to do with species than you'd think. It's a designation created by the Garleans in reference to their religious practices, and more akin to a derogatory racial term than an actual differentiation between species.

I think it's reasonable to assume at least four out of the five playable races are hominids, but they're not the same species. There's no viable interbreeding, and enough physiological differences for them to have separated enough as to be different species. But they can still be "human" by way of common culture, rather than genetics.

ArmachiA · **01-18-2014, 11:53 PM**

(01-18-2014, 11:42 PM)Jana Wrote: It's been a long time since college biology so correct me if I'm wrong, but for all of the races to be the same species, wouldn't they have to be able to all produce viable offspring with one another? We've seen examples of NPCs that are half Sun Seeker and half Moon Keeper, but until we see an NPC who is, say, half Hyur Midlander and half Elezen Duskwight, or at least hear about such a case, I wouldn't be able follow the same line of thinking.

More on-topic, I think it's entirely possible that the level of "cat-ness" of a Miqo'te is something that's on an individual level, not a species/race/clan/tribal one. The NPC that says "meow" instead of "now" is very obviously a Moon Keeper but she is, as far as I know, the only Miqo'te and the only Keeper to speak in that specific way. Maybe it's something common to the Molkot family, but I don't think we can say "All Miqo'te speak/act/feel like so-and-so."

SE has come out and said that you can cross breed with other races (Like Hyur/Miqote) but it's rare. No one knows if it's rare because no one really does it or because they aren't quite biologically compatible, however. So that's just what the player feels like.

On Miqote being their culture: True. Miqote are their culture much more than they are "cats" but I think it's being somewhat ignorant to assume their culture isn't cat-like either. I mean Seekers are basically Lions and Keepers are basically Tigers.

FreelanceWizard · **01-18-2014, 11:56 PM**

(01-18-2014, 11:42 PM)Jana Wrote: It's been a long time since college biology so correct me if I'm wrong, but for all of the races to be the same species, wouldn't they have to be able to all produce viable offspring with one another? We've seen examples of NPCs that are half Sun Seeker and half Moon Keeper, but until we see an NPC who is, say, half Hyur Midlander and half Elezen Duskwight, or at least hear about such a case, I wouldn't be able follow the same line of thinking.

I'd have to dig it up, but there's a developer post indicating that half-breeds across races (as opposed to clans) are possible, just extremely rare -- which is why we haven't seen any yet.

Also, to all, c'mon, can't we have a nice conversation here? Smile

Let's turn down the heat a bit. I think we can all agree that miqo'te have a complex culture, but there's also a lot of grey areas -- and that taking advantage of miqo'te morphology is often beneficial to RP, but certainly not something that you have to do.

Kendha'to · **01-18-2014, 11:57 PM**

(01-18-2014, 11:53 PM)ArmachiA Wrote:
(01-18-2014, 11:42 PM)Jana Wrote: It's been a long time since college biology so correct me if I'm wrong, but for all of the races to be the same species, wouldn't they have to be able to all produce viable offspring with one another? We've seen examples of NPCs that are half Sun Seeker and half Moon Keeper, but until we see an NPC who is, say, half Hyur Midlander and half Elezen Duskwight, or at least hear about such a case, I wouldn't be able follow the same line of thinking.

More on-topic, I think it's entirely possible that the level of "cat-ness" of a Miqo'te is something that's on an individual level, not a species/race/clan/tribal one. The NPC that says "meow" instead of "now" is very obviously a Moon Keeper but she is, as far as I know, the only Miqo'te and the only Keeper to speak in that specific way. Maybe it's something common to the Molkot family, but I don't think we can say "All Miqo'te speak/act/feel like so-and-so."

SE has come out and said that you can cross breed with other races (Like Hyur/Miqote) but it's rare. No one knows if it's rare because no one really does it or because they aren't quite biologically compatible, however. So that's just what the player feels like.

On Miqote being their culture: True. Miqote are their culture much more than they are "cats" but I think it's being somewhat ignorant to assume their culture isn't cat-like either. I mean Seekers are basically Lions and Keepers are basically Tigers.

Can you elaborate on this bolded part a bit?

ArmachiA · **01-19-2014, 12:23 AM**

My post wasn't meant to be argumentative, it just really obvious the two Miqote races are extremely cat-like in behavior culturally.

Seekers:
Tribes are prides - Lions generally have one mating male that is surrounded by a bunch of female lions who are the hunters/gatherers of said Tribe. Like Nunh's and all their womens. Any other male born into the Pride is a non-mating male. Lions are known as the only social kitties, and the prides are usually run by the females of the pride, not the mating male. Females stay with the pride all their lives, while males are forced out to start their own pride when they come of mating age (This was probably changed to the Nunh/Tia dynamic to make it make more sense as to why some males don't have a pride).

Keepers:
Tigers are more nomadic and tend to keep to themselves. Mothers will always raise the children while the males will go and roam their territory (Which is why Keeper children take their mothers name). Tigers are cooperative with each other, and if it is known they are family (The mother knows the male tiger fathered her young) she may even let the male near her young. Though Males tend to have large territories that overlap many female territories where they roam. Because of this, Tigers have much much less access to males than Lions do - in the game this is probably why Keeper men are so rare.

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How cat-like is your Miqo'te?

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