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JFrombaugh · **04-14-2014, 04:51 AM**

My main character for RPing is called Miranda. I have decided she is more adept at magic than weapon attacks, but I am having trouble deciding which one would best fit her in terms of personality. I think it's safe to assume that lorewise, nobody can level more than one or two jobs up to level 50, since that is usually tops for most FF characters.

Key traits:
-Although she is relatively warm and friendly in conversation, she is often guarded and aloof because she is easily taken advantage of and has been badly treated in the past. Miranda has always strongly disagreed with "tough love", and as a result she secretly harbors a great deal of bitterness towards the city states for treating her like dirt just because she is an Adventurer.
-Her loyalty lies mostly with the Scions rather than the Grand Companies or her Guild for these reasons. Pretty much, she sees the townsfolk's tendency towards harsh treatment as proof that they're little better than the Empire.
-She is more introverted than extroverted, although she can work well with others if the situation calls for it.
-I wouldn't go so far as to describe her as pacifistic, but I would say she fights out of necessity rather than because she "lives for battle".

Overall, I'd say Miranda tends to be a lot like Terra or Yuna at times. But with a different element.

Spiritual Machine · **04-14-2014, 12:21 PM**

I don't believe personality is all that big of a factor in discipline choice--you'll find all kinds of people studying all kinds of magic. But if you want to be in line with the stereotypes:

Conjury seems to attract folks with an affinity to nature, the natural order of things and a reverence and communion with spirits. Or, barring that, people who just want to heal other people.

Conjurers borrow from the strength of the elements, and they do so graciously, because if they choose to rely solely on their own strengths, they limit their potential to do good (though they still can, technically).

Thaumaturgy seems to attract folks who are just a bit weird, whose talents and aspirations lead them to try and plunge the depths of the arcane in order to push their own personal limits. Sometimes it attracts power-hungry megalomaniacs, but that's less common.

Thaumaturges are often taught that the only thing more important than expanding your power is knowing your limitations. No one is all powerful, and there is a way to overcome anything. Also, setting things on fire is kicking rad.

Arcanima is a new study, but less so than you think. The source of their power is the invocation of ritual and the evocation of familiars to do their bidding. But the call of the Arcanist is to study and investigate, to unravel the subtle mysteries of the arts.

Arcanists are big on problem-solving. Magic is a puzzle, and the world is a thought problem. They derive the greatest satisfaction from exercising control over the environment, rather than raw power over their enemies. Arcanists benefit from eccentricity, but are nothing if not patient.

If your character doesn't like the city-states, there are ways of getting training for these disciplines outside of cities, but it does limit your options. There are also guilds that are more focused on supporting their home city-states than others. The Thaumaturge's Guild probably has the loosest association with Ul'dah, lending itself to interesting projects in other guilds mostly. The Arcanist's Guild serves as the Limsa's cargo inspectors and investigators of market activity, keeping the shadier folk in line. The Conjurers obviously have a very important role in maintaining Gridania, and right from the start you're training for that role, but fortunately you're not sworn into it or anything.

Finally, I think you might have gotten the terms "introverted" and "extroverted" wrong. As an introvert myself, I have no trouble responding to social situations and working with others, but I am naturally more reserved and my thoughts more internal than an extrovert. I'm comfortable working alone but not because groups make me uncomfortable. Similarly, I know bashful extroverts.

When folks use those terms do describe levels of comfort in social situations, it makes me think a lot of folks think introvert means "shy". There are other technical terms used to describe levels of social anxiety, though.

JFrombaugh · **04-14-2014, 03:13 PM**

(04-14-2014, 12:21 PM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: Finally, I think you might have gotten the terms "introverted" and "extroverted" wrong. As an introvert myself, I have no trouble responding to social situations and working with others, but I am naturally more reserved and my thoughts more internal than an extrovert.

That was what I meant, not shyness.

And I wouldn't say she is opposed to visiting the city states to learn her craft, it's just that she tries to steer clear of non-guildmates and non-Scions socially, as she has come to see their straight-talking as a sign of their social coarseness, plus they don't immediately appreciate her Adventuring life or the good she does for them.

But anyway, some other questions about each:

1. From what I understand, Conjury comes from the elementals agreeing to do the caster's bidding. So if you don't follow the Padjal traditions or you act in a way that goes against their beliefs, will Conjury fail you? And if so, then how come many NPCs and voidsent can cast Stone and Cure?

2. The advantage of Thaumaturgy seems to be that you don't need to believe in a specific cause, as long as you've learned the Umbral/Astral shifting. But is Black Magic "corrupting" in the same way as say, Fel magic in WoW?

3. Several other people seem to think that the best choice for Miranda would be a Summoner or Scholar, given that the Arcanists are more serious and trustworthy than most other Limsa Lominsans due to theÂ nature of their work, and the Jobs themselves make sense for serving the Scions as they no longer are tied to specific city states. However, wouldn't a Scholar effectively be required to be similar to Admiral Merlwyb, seeing as how their arcane spells were (evidently) designed around protection and directing Marauder units in battle?

Teryaani · **04-14-2014, 03:28 PM**

(04-14-2014, 03:13 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote:
(04-14-2014, 12:21 PM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: Finally, I think you might have gotten the terms "introverted" and "extroverted" wrong. As an introvert myself, I have no trouble responding to social situations and working with others, but I am naturally more reserved and my thoughts more internal than an extrovert.

That was what I meant, not shyness.

And I wouldn't say she is opposed to visiting the city states to learn her craft, it's just that she tries to steer clear of the people outside of her guild and the Scions socially, as she's discovered more than a few reasons to believe they aren't as good as they seem, and they don't immediately appreciate her Adventuring life or the good she does for them.

But anyway, some other questions about each:

1. From what I understand, Conjury comes from the elementals agreeing to do the caster's bidding. So if you don't follow the Padjal traditions or you act in a way that goes against their beliefs, will Conjury fail you? And if so, then how come many NPCs and voidsent can cast Stone and Cure?

2. The advantage of Thaumaturgy seems to be that you don't need to believe in a specific cause, as long as you've learned the Umbral/Astral shifting. But is Black Magic "corrupting" in the same way as say, Fel magic in WoW?

3. Several other people seem to think that the best choice for Miranda would be a Summoner or Scholar, given that the Arcanists are more serious and trustworthy than most other Limsa Lominsans due to theÂ nature of their work, and the Jobs themselves make sense for serving the Scions as they no longer are tied to specific city states. However, wouldn't a Scholar effectively be required to be similar to Admiral Merlwyb, seeing as how their arcane spells were (evidently) designed around protection and directing Marauder units in battle?

I may be mistaken, so take this with a shaker of salt. I was under the impression that conjury was a discipline ofÂ magic that channelled the elements, but it didn't necessarily require any particular ethos to use. That's why you see plenty of people that probably aren't very elemental friendly using it.

White magic (conjury++) is what the Padjal practice and only shows up with them and the hero of the storyline.

The corruption that comes from Thaumaturgy isn't the magic itself. You find corrupted thaumaturges because the art is about destructive force and the sort of people that generally are attracted to destructive force may be more prone to corruption. Or so the story goes.

Spiritual Machine · **04-14-2014, 04:01 PM**

Ah, the way you phrased it, it sounded like she was working around her introversion when she interacted with groups. I understand now.

Conjures borrow power from elemental spirits, which is different from the way a thaumaturge uses the strength of their will and their aetherial power to pull power from the void. There is little saying that you can't simply take of this latent elemental energy--present throughout the world--but it is taught that the energy is strength lent freely to the conjured by the elements themselves.

That said, there are many unconventional conjurers that don't follow any norms and mores of Gridanian culture, such as your Sharlayan allies in the Scions (Louisoix and Y'shtoa). Whoever said that Arcanists are most ideal for your character for that reason is disregarding that only Urianger is an Arcanist, and Papylamo is a Thaumaturge.

As for the stranger beings that cast Stone and Cure, just as Thaumaturges also command elemental aether power, Conjurers aren't the only mages that can heal. It's really only their methods that are unique to them, not the results.

As said before, the sort of corruption Thaumaturges encounter is not magic-related. It doesn't even have to be malevolent--one can lust after great power or simply thirst for knowledge at all costs, or wish to push their limits in a way that they threaten to destroy themselves with their own hubris. Any user of magic can fall into this trap. Fortunately, since many people are able to use magic, and not all of them are good, the people of Eorzea have ways of dealing with rogue mages that pose a threat to the land.

For instance, they usually throw four or more adventurers at them.

Finally, Arcanists existed before Merlwyb had the Arcanist Guild established. The practice and study of Arcanima is not unique to Vylbrand and if I recall correctly actually came from a land far to the south. Arcanists came to Limsa by sea, and spread their practice in a traditional master-apprentice style until Merlwyb decided that that was too inefficient. Prior to Merlwyb's ascension to the position of Admiral, Arcanists still served as the port authority in Limsa at Meyvaan's Gate (might have spelled that wrong).

Arcanists are no more or less restricted to a practice or occupation than any other DoM class. Since all three classes are taught by guilds that are open to the public, adventurers are able to learn from all three. Sorry to be less than helpful, but no class is less ideal for your character's chosen role than another, and on the whole no class is less trusted or less respected than another. It just really comes down to what she would like to study.

Sounsyy · **04-14-2014, 05:59 PM**

(04-14-2014, 03:13 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote: 1. From what I understand, Conjury comes from the elementals agreeing to do the caster's bidding. So if you don't follow the Padjal traditions or you act in a way that goes against their beliefs, will Conjury fail you? And if so, then how come many NPCs and voidsent can cast Stone and Cure?

You are thinking more of Succor. While similar, they are not the same magic. Conjury is essentially taking the aether in nature and, through meditation, forming that aether into a desired spell. Instead of using your own aetherial stores like other forms of magic, you're borrowing from an external source.

Now, "Conjury" was taught to Man by the Moogles about 500 years ago in the time of Gelmorra. This magic allowed for a communion between Man and Nature, which allowed Conjurers to speak to the Elementals, or at the very least, hear them speak. Now, conjury can be taught to anyone. However, some are born with the magic. The majority of these young conjurers become "Hearers" or people who can hear the beckon of the Elementals. So not all conjurers are Hearers, but all Hearers are conjurers.

Now "Succor" is the magic used by Elemental and White Mage. It is magic in its purest form. Man abused this magic roughly 1600 years ago and the Elementals flooded the world to wipe it from existence. 500 years ago, after the Pact of Gelmorra, the Elementals entrusted Succor to the Padjal race (a race the Elementals had birthed from the first Conjurers). The Elementals entrusted the Padjal to care for the forest with Succor as their price for living within it. They warned that should Succor ever be abused as it once was, the Elementals would not hesitate to wipe out the world again.

(04-14-2014, 03:13 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote: 2. The advantage of Thaumaturgy seems to be that you don't need to believe in a specific cause, as long as you've learned the Umbral/Astral shifting. But is Black Magic "corrupting" in the same way as say, Fel magic in WoW?

Like conjury and succor, Thaumaturgy and Black Magic are slightly different. Black Magic is pure destruction and chaos. It has been noted to have certain ties to the Void, but not much is clear about the whole connection between the two. It is important to note that Thaumaturgy and Black Magic are related though. Thaumaturgy is derived from Black Magic.

Thaumaturgy has more to do with the manipulation of a person's aether rather than Black Magic which expends a person's aether to cast powerful spells. By manipulation I mean that Thaumaturgy can heal to some extent and even return life to the dead. Thaumaturgy itself, is the study of Thal's Realm and the duality of life and death. Thaumaturges believe that by understanding death, they might better understand life.

Black Magic is more about power and the ambition to achieve greater power. While several renowned Black Mages have received their power or used their power to unlock the Void, it's not entirely clear why. Perhaps something in the Void is using the aether displaced by Black Magic's destruction to get out? Actually, highly plausible now that I think about it... Hmm, anyways, both magicks (THM and BLM) are learned through study and dedication. It's not a magic that one is born knowing. It's something that is learned from years of study. And it seems the only true corrupting force behind the magic is one's own ambition.

(04-14-2014, 03:13 PM)JFrombaugh Wrote: 3. Several other people seem to think that the best choice for Miranda would be a Summoner or Scholar, given that the Arcanists are more serious and trustworthy than most other Limsa Lominsans due to theÂ nature of their work, and the Jobs themselves make sense for serving the Scions as they no longer are tied to specific city states. However, wouldn't a Scholar effectively be required to be similar to Admiral Merlwyb, seeing as how their arcane spells were (evidently) designed around protection and directing Marauder units in battle?

Well, Merlwyb is a Musketeer, not an Arcanist or Scholar, so I think you're safe there. Scholars are actually quite rare, but yes, they were the tacticians of Nym. But Nym and Scholars are, for the most part, no more. And Summoners were Allagan and no longer exist by and large either. Outside of the player character, we only encounter one other Summoner and he was taught to summon from an Ascian. I think Spiritual Machine went over Arcanima pretty well, so I won't go over that magic more.

Spiritual Machine · **04-14-2014, 06:32 PM**

Thanks for that post, Sounsyy. I had some questions about the lore of magic in Eorzea myself, and you've really cleared some things up for me.

JFrombaugh · **04-15-2014, 12:52 AM**

Okay, well, assuming none of them have a personality archetype or requirement, the dillemma is this - I would say all three disciplines have pros and cons:

-Conjury is the school of magic Miranda would probably be the most interested in; I'd say their beliefs are most similar to hers as well. However, Gridania isn't known for tolerating outsiders, and she would be appalled to see the two Padjal WHMs acting like those arrogant questgivers she opposed.
-Limsa Lominsa is more accepting of adventures, and the Arcanist's Guild doesn't worship a particular god. However, it is still a tough and militant town of pirates and thugs, and I'm not sure how well Miranda would like doing cargo inspection as a job while learning her art...
-With these revelations, Thaumaturgy makes the most sense as an art Miranda would take up as a necessary means of fending for herself, but the guild itself has a lot of internal corruption going on, and in many ways Ul'dah represents the worst aspects of Gridania and Limsa Lominsa combined. It's interesting to hear that Thaumaturges aren't as strongly associated with Ul'dah as the other DoMs are with their cities though...

(04-14-2014, 05:59 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Well, Merlwyb is a Musketeer, not an Arcanist or Scholar, so I think you're safe there. Scholars are actually quite rare, but yes, they were the tacticians of Nym. But Nym and Scholars are, for the most part, no more.

What I meant was, since Miranda's temperament is not very well suited to being a commanding officer in a military order, wouldn't that pretty much disqualify her from becoming a Scholar?

Spiritual Machine · **04-15-2014, 05:01 AM**

(04-15-2014, 12:52 AM)JFrombaugh Wrote: Okay, well, assuming none of them have a personality archetype or requirement, the dillemma is this - I would say all three disciplines have pros and cons:

-Conjury is the school of magic Miranda would probably be the most interested in; I'd say their beliefs are most similar to hers as well. However, Gridania isn't known for tolerating outsiders, and she would be appalled to see the two Padjal WHMs acting like those arrogant questgivers she opposed.
-Limsa Lominsa is more accepting of adventures, and the Arcanist's Guild doesn't worship a particular god. However, it is still a tough and militant town of pirates and thugs, and I'm not sure how well Miranda would like doing cargo inspection as a job while learning her art...
-With these revelations, Thaumaturgy makes the most sense as an art Miranda would take up as a necessary means of fending for herself, but the guild itself has a lot of internal corruption going on, and in many ways Ul'dah represents the worst aspects of Gridania and Limsa Lominsa combined. It's interesting to hear that Thaumaturges aren't as strongly associated with Ul'dah as the other DoMs are with their cities though...

(04-14-2014, 05:59 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Well, Merlwyb is a Musketeer, not an Arcanist or Scholar, so I think you're safe there. Scholars are actually quite rare, but yes, they were the tacticians of Nym. But Nym and Scholars are, for the most part, no more.

What I meant was, since Miranda's temperament is not very well suited to being a commanding officer in a military order, wouldn't that pretty much disqualify her from becoming a Scholar?

It doesn't disqualify her at all. The history of Scholars has little to do with the art itself, however the art is a pretty rare one--you'll find few teachers. Those you do find are just that--scholars, as in arcanists and historians.

Best not to hold solely to the stereotypes of the guilds and city-states, really.

For example, you actually won't find a lot of corruption in the Thaumaturge's guild. I was wrong before, as well--Sounsyy has the right of it that the Thaumaturgists of Ul'dah are also the priesthood of Thal, and they handle funeral rites and rituals for the city-state.

Given that, you're probably more likely to interact with the common folk of Ul'dah than your character might prefer. However, the slimy and corrupt sorts represent more of the stereotype of the city, and perhaps some personal development can come from your character learning that most folk in Ul'dah are just regular people like her.

Similarly, the Gridanians as a whole are known to be unwelcoming of outsiders, but this has changed drastically as of late. Adventurers are becoming a welcome and appreciated sight. The Padjali themselves are at the forefront of encouraging this welcoming attitude (contrary to being arrogant and discriminating as some Wildwood tend to be). Even the elementals are becoming more friendly to outsiders, at least to adventurers--the residential district in the Black Shroud is open for adventurers to build homes in with the blessing of the forest itself.

Worship is not a requirement of any guild, though a reverence for the powers that be is not uncommon. That said, you're right that the Arcanist's guild is more detached from the reverence of higher powers. However, Limsa Lominsa is also not dangerous on the whole. It's become a lot less rough under the strict reign of Merlwyb, and that guild in particular is probably the safest place in the whole city.

Their typical work isn't always safe, but Arcanists are the sort to take precautions. One may call their work boring, but training often is. You don't get to the fun bits until after you master the basics.

My advice to you is to play the first fifteen levels of each DoM class if you haven't yet. You may as well, since you'll want the cross-class abilities eventually anyway. It's a good way to sample the common characteristics and practices of each guild, including the nuances that defy the common misconceptions.

May as well do a few of the quests in each city as well, since they're a great source of city lore, and they introduce you to the regular folk of the area. Maybe in this way, you can start getting in the mind of what company your character would most prefer if she had to choose.

Teryaani · **04-15-2014, 12:14 PM**

Quote:My advice to you is to play the first fifteen levels of each DoM class if you haven't yet. You may as well, since you'll want the cross-class abilities eventually anyway. It's a good way to sample the common characteristics and practices of each guild, including the nuances that defy the common misconceptions.

This. You'll get a good feeling for the storylines of each guild this way. If I may make a purely gameplay/mechanical suggestion, take at least 26 levels of thaumaturge. Swiftcast is a must have if you decide to go a healing route.

JFrombaugh · **04-15-2014, 01:07 PM**

(04-15-2014, 12:14 PM)Teryaani Wrote:
Quote:My advice to you is to play the first fifteen levels of each DoM class if you haven't yet. You may as well, since you'll want the cross-class abilities eventually anyway. It's a good way to sample the common characteristics and practices of each guild, including the nuances that defy the common misconceptions.

This. You'll get a good feeling for the storylines of each guild this way. If I may make a purely gameplay/mechanical suggestion, take at least 26 levels of thaumaturge. Swiftcast is a must have if you decide to go a healing route.

Actually, I have levelled all three to 50. That's why it's such a hard decision. For me, I would say all three are fun to play in their own right for gameplay purposes, but for RPing, I need to choose one, maybe at most two, as being her "canon" Job.

I started out as a Conjurer and initially felt it would by far be the most appealing lorewise, but the more you quest in the Black Shroud area, the more you realize how bloody arrogant the Elezen are. And in the WHM story, not only is the brother Padjal (forget his name) just as arrogant and discriminating as the Wildwoods, but Raya-O-Senna actually warns you to never give in to your anger...only to do exactly that herself when you discover A-Towa-Cant's grave has been ransacked. That was what I meant when I said that Miranda would be appalled to see the two most powerful and trusted Padjal after Ken-E-Senna, acting like those Wildwoods she had come to resent earlier in the story.

In the THM storyline after Level 15, the corruption of that Lalalefell who wanted to become a THM himself but lacked the necessary talent clearly illustrates the dangers of the art. Meeting the beastmen BLMs is fun and interesting, but there's the whole disciple of Nald'thal part as well.

The two Arcanist Jobs would allow her to be completely unique in her own category, seeing as how they are past arts lost to the ages, but I have to ask myself...would she find Arcanima interesting enough from the get go to take up a part-time job as a cargo inspector? The Arcanist Guild seems to emphasize the practical application of their art in the field more so than the other DoMs, whose storylines are more about your training.

Spiritual Machine · **04-15-2014, 01:34 PM**

To be honest I used the arrogance of the Wildwood and the hypocritical and potentially endangering, secretive nature of the Conjurer trainer to enrich my Conjurer's backstory, as well as his opinion of Gridanians and of the Twelveswood in general. A strong case can be made for that whole society being terrible, but a strong case can be made to the contrary as well. It all ends up being a matter of perspective.

Also, regardless of what guild you choose, you always have the option to bail after learning your craft.

I still think the Thaumaturge line does little if anything to showcase an inherently corruptive nature in the guild itself. The one person who suffers this the most isn't even a Thaumaturge, just a wannabe who hadn't even been admitted into the guild in the first place because training them would be too dangerous.

If anything I think that shows that the teachers of Thaumaturgy are responsible with the power they hold. A few bad circumstances don't diminish that, but rather illustrate why responsible training is so necessary.

In any case, I think the Thaumaturges are even more lovably nerdy than the Arcanists. They're great.

Teryaani · **04-15-2014, 03:04 PM**

(04-15-2014, 01:34 PM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: In any case, I think the Thaumaturges are even more lovably nerdy than the Arcanists. They're great.

and comically craven Smile

. For me the most awesome thing about these wielders of hugely destructive magic is how cowardly they can be.

In your shoes, JFrombaugh,Â I would probably lean toward either the THM or the ACN for your main casting class. I am biased though. My love for the THM/BLM knows no bounds and I found the CNJ/WHM questlines really unpleasant.

JFrombaugh · **04-16-2014, 03:50 AM**

(04-15-2014, 01:34 PM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: To be honest I used the arrogance of the Wildwood and the hypocritical and potentially endangering, secretive nature of the Conjurer trainer to enrich my Conjurer's backstory, as well as his opinion of Gridanians and of the Twelveswood in general. A strong case can be made for that whole society being terrible, but a strong case can be made to the contrary as well. It all ends up being a matter of perspective.

Also, regardless of what guild you choose, you always have the option to bail after learning your craft.

Mind you, it's not like the other city states are much, if any, less arrogant.

If it weren't for her close friends in her guild and in the Scions, Miranda would have probably ended up just like the Dark Summoner from the Summoner story. Seriously, besides WoW, this is the only MMO I have ever played where I have honestly felt sorry for my own character.

As for my choice of class though, I haven't locked in my decision yet, but I think right now I'm leaning towards a combination of WHM and BLM, or Red Mage when it's released. I could see a good background story about Miranda being initially drawn to Gridania/Conjury for the beauty of the forest and the apparent peacefulness of the art, but then learning hard lessons throughout her time as an Adventurer which have the effect of galvanizing her into taking up Thaumaturgy as a necessary means of fending for herself. That would also explain having Archer as a subjob for BLM, if she wanted to learn it but left out of resentment for Silviarre's abusiveness.

Then again, the Arcanists are generally less arrogant overall and the Job storylines involve a one on one friendship with a unique questgiver who helps you rediscover those lost arts. Decisions, decisions!

Best DoM job for my character

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