RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes

Naunet · **05-06-2014, 03:21 PM**

(05-06-2014, 09:28 AM)Flickering Ember Wrote: all the women stood in poses that looked like they should be on a pin up calendar. That was your first introduction to player female characters. Your female character starts off half dressed while the male is properly covered.

I'mÂ Confused...

While both those were taken before the body types were introduced... Where's the half-dressed pin-up? (Some of the runs are kinda silly though yea. xD Especially mechari and mordesh... I love the aurin run, though - it's very bouncy! - and the human isn't so bad.)

Zyrusticae · **05-06-2014, 03:49 PM**

(05-06-2014, 12:52 AM)Naunet Wrote: [snip]

That's the style. The females are varying shapes of hourglass (unless they're a funky side-character), while the males tend to be varying shapes of inverted triangle (again, unless you're a funky side character).

Now, I'll give you the boobies. I'd love it if they had a chest slider at the very least and let us pick what breast size we wanted with our various body types. But I think your complaint is with the art style as a whole, not with Carbine's treatment of character models.

I'm well aware of this. The thing is, they can maintain their style without taking away heavily from the players' control, and the body type selection flies in the face of that anyway considering there ARE bodies you can choose that don't have the pinched waist look (but still have big boobs, heh).

I don't think there's anything wrong with letting player characters look like the "funky side-characters" considering the sheer breadth and diversity of humanity, to say nothing of the diversity of life itself even among mammals alone. I will never be willing to accept the premise that gimped character creation is a necessary feature for the sake of any one "style". Maybe at one point that was acceptable in the past, but in this day and age? Standards change. Developers need to keep up, or they'll just get left behind.

And come on - aren't you at least a little curious how a non-standard, androgynous female would look in that style? It CAN be done.

(05-06-2014, 10:17 AM)TheLastCandle Wrote: Art and character design aside, the gameplay itself just isn't that compelling to me. It feels like every other DikuMUD-based MMO except - oh, I don't have to tab target these guys to hit them with my sword. (I will say that I like the "every normal attack is an AoE" feel of Warrior in that, even though it doesn't really feel like the sword strikes have any weight to them.) Which is fine. I don't hate the MMO genre, obviously. But I'm already invested in that type of game, so why would I pay $60 + $15/month to play the same thing dolled up in a Don Bluth inspired art style?

This is what gets me. Why did they bother making this game? Was it not already abundantly obvious that the market for heavily WoW-based themepark MMOs is already completely saturated? They really need more to differentiate themselves from the competition, or else loads of potential customers are going to think exactly like you and just pass over the game in favor of what they're already playing.

It really boggles my mind to think that NCSoft is hedging their bets on this game becoming a success, while keeping Blade & Soul locked away somewhere despite it being the considerably more innovative game. Just... why?

Ildur · **05-06-2014, 03:53 PM**

Maybe in older betas the starting clothes were painfully silly? I wouldn't be surprised if it was, because Carbine has had strange design choices before (like the torpedo chests). But I don't think I have seen any revealing clothes at all in Wildstar in the first 15 levels, except for some shorts here and there.

The female running and walking animations are pretty bad in that sense. Granoks take the cake in that department, because their behinds sway so much. They get better if you use certain body types (particularly the ones that diminish the wasp-waist effect). They are as bad as Blade & Soul and Lineage 2 walking animations, though: more fit for supermodels than for soldiers.

Naunet · **05-06-2014, 04:15 PM**

(05-06-2014, 03:49 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: And come on - aren't you at least a little curious how a non-standard, androgynous female would look in that style? It CAN be done.

Never said I'd be against more varied body types. I'm unsure if sliders are in the cards, considering the rework it would take to fit it all to the gear, though I would hope that if we did get any sliders, a bust slider would be the first to come (it's what I really, really, really want). I could see them implementing more preset body types in the future, though - would be pretty straightforward. The only problem would be how to give players access to changing their body type, and the solution I'd pick for that would be to give full recustomization available in-game, like how Rift does (a barbershop that essentially takes you back to the char creation screen, and the gold cost goes up depending on how many and what types of things you edit).

So yea! Totally doable. Just have to convince them it's important.

That said, I do think it's a little unfair to pick on WildStar for not having nonstandard female body types (though actually, their "boxy" choice for body type strays quite far from the standard) when... no one else does either. I mean, FFXIV's female models are all decidedly feminine as well. What's more, you can get some actually fairly non-traditional beauty looks in the face department in WildStar, but in XIV you're limited to a few very standard pretty faces.

Flickering Ember · **05-06-2014, 04:26 PM**

(05-06-2014, 03:21 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(05-06-2014, 09:28 AM)Flickering Ember Wrote: all the women stood in poses that looked like they should be on a pin up calendar. That was your first introduction to player female characters. Your female character starts off half dressed while the male is properly covered.

I'mÂ Confused...

While both those were taken before the body types were introduced... Where's the half-dressed pin-up? (Some of the runs are kinda silly though yea. xD Especially mechari and mordesh... I love the aurin run, though - it's very bouncy! - and the human isn't so bad.)

I am talking about the poses the female races have -before- you start to customize them. Your idea of pin up may be different from mine but the most common pose I remember was "hip swayed far to the side with hand resting on it complete with smirking bad girl expression".

The poses can be easily ignored since those aren't their idle animations but it gives you an idea of what you're getting into when it comes to the very WoW-like approach of female characters. The women stand in positions that basically looks like they are trying to thrust their boobs and ass out at you.

TL; DR though the models aren't for me. I like being able to connect with my avatar on an emotional level. Can't do it in WS and that is a deal breaker.

Ignacius · **05-06-2014, 04:49 PM**

While we might like more character customization, we roleplayers who care a lot about such things are a very, very small minority in games. Â Essentially, we're worth some tokens every now and then, but the stuff we want, like interactive hangout spots, character customization, emotes, and empty buildings, are the first things to go in game design if there's a time crunch.
I guess maybe I'm more forgiving since I learned to RP on forums and in book games. Â I barely look at my actual character models because no customizer on Earth is ever going to come close to creating what I actually describe and, really, it isn't necessary for me. Â So I'll see how Wildstar comes along. Â If it's gameplay and atmosphere is more fun than XIV, then I might switch. Â I can't see paying a sub for it and XIV at the same time.

Character customization is nice, but if I wanted it at the top of my list, I'd be RPing in forums and books, not in a video game where everything is limited. Â As it stands, I'm RPing as a sideline to fun games, so having a boob slider is WAY down my list of priorities, far below mechanical competence, combat systems, and whether the actual game is at all entertaining. Â After all that is settled, I'll probably worry more about my character's face, which, of course, I never see when I'm staring at his back while running.

synaesthetic · **05-06-2014, 04:54 PM**

I'd argue that XIV body types are less exaggerated, tbh. Even when stripped down the miqo'te female body is quite uncurvy (with a very stereotypically Asian build, including the slim hips and flat butt) and the Midlander hyur isn't much different. Both the Highlander hyur and roe female bodies are very stocky builds; my worse half was playing with the character creator on my computer a while back and made an extremely androgynous Highlander. It's also fairly easy to make a both bishonen and rugged/masculine males in just about every race except roe. Even Highlander hyur males can be sparkly-bishies if properly built.

This isn't really something you can do in Wildstar. Female chara models have Hartmann hips and Barbie doll waists with the exception of granok, and the breast sizes are fixed.

This is more of a style issue than anything since XIV takes a stylized realism approach with slight manga influences, but it's way, way, way more possible to make an androgynous miqo female than an androgynous aurin female.

Naunet · **05-06-2014, 05:04 PM**

(05-06-2014, 04:49 PM)Ignacius Wrote: While we might like more character customization, we roleplayers who care a lot about such things are a very, very small minority in games.

Actually, posts asking for more character creation are one of if not THE most common thing you see on the WildStar beta forums. Far more people than you think value robust character creation.

Ildur · **05-06-2014, 05:08 PM**

You don't need the most expensive character creator to make a character you like: you just need to make something with the tools given and making concessions to the game. Like not being unable to create a redhead because the game lacks red hair color. So instead you go for brown. You work withing the given framework, just like in any roleplay.

Not only roleplayers worry about characters. A lot of people do: it's one of the big lures MMOs have because there are not that many other games that offer multiplayer coupled with character customization. Those people want a certain feel of ownership over the characters they play, and they can't achieve that if everyone looks like a clone and if every class is locked into particular looks at the different level ranges (which is why ARR's glamour system stinks, but let's not dwell on that).
You also end up seeing your character's face anyway in a lot of situations: like the character selection screen, the character window, previews of gear, cutscenes (if the game has them), screenshots.

And then there's the little factoid that other people will be seeing your character's face. Constantly. Unless you wear a helmet. Besides the floating name over your head, your character's face is what people will remember if you don't have a particularly striking look (like a cool armor, but that's something that is constantly changing unless the game has a vanity system).

Zyrusticae · **05-06-2014, 06:01 PM**

(05-06-2014, 03:53 PM)Ildur Wrote: They are as bad as Blade & Soul and Lineage 2 walking animations, though: more fit for supermodels than for soldiers.

To be fair to Blade & Soul, the Wuxia movies it takes influence from most certainly do NOT treat their female characters as "soldiers". I can be more forgiving of such things when they're very obviously not trying to be realistic in any form or fashion.

That doesn't excuse them for not, say, giving more options for walking and running animations and the like. I'd really like to see more games provide something like that. After all, how someone moves can say a LOT about their personality or what they're after.

(05-06-2014, 04:15 PM)Naunet Wrote:

Show Content

Spoiler
Never said I'd be against more varied body types. I'm unsure if sliders are in the cards, considering the rework it would take to fit it all to the gear, though I would hope that if we did get any sliders, a bust slider would be the first to come (it's what I really, really, really want). I could see them implementing more preset body types in the future, though - would be pretty straightforward. The only problem would be how to give players access to changing their body type, and the solution I'd pick for that would be to give full recustomization available in-game, like how Rift does (a barbershop that essentially takes you back to the char creation screen, and the gold cost goes up depending on how many and what types of things you edit).

So yea! Totally doable. Just have to convince them it's important.

That said, I do think it's a little unfair to pick on WildStar for not having nonstandard female body types (though actually, their "boxy" choice for body type strays quite far from the standard) when... no one else does either. I mean, FFXIV's female models are all decidedly feminine as well. What's more, you can get some actually fairly non-traditional beauty looks in the face department in WildStar, but in XIV you're limited to a few very standard pretty faces.

I don't know what you mean by "no one else does either". Aion & Blade & Soul both support some pretty crazy body proportions. Likewise with PSO2 (for example...). Or what about EVE Online? Even Saints Row III & IV are good for this, though they really need to separate muscle tone from muscle mass.

And then there's Dragon's Dogma. Oh, lordy, Dragon's Dogma... you can literally create a female character that is completely indistinguishable from a man as well as a stereotypically buxom fem fatale and anything in-between (I personally went for an androgynous, muscley teenager). And that's a Japanese game! Bloody amazing work, I say. (Just wish they made a PC version, but I digress.)

So, yeah. With all these other options on the market with decent-to-great character creation I feel entirely justified in ragging on them for limiting the range of possibilities in their own character creation.

(05-06-2014, 04:49 PM)Ignacius Wrote: While we might like more character customization, we roleplayers who care a lot about such things are a very, very small minority in games.

Sorry to cut this out of a much larger post, but this is a completely unfounded assertion.

Just look at PSO2 for one very, very prominent example - the game is built almost entirely around its deep character customization and an ever-increasing trove of cosmetic options. Its economic success can be attributed pretty much specifically to just that and that alone. The actual gameplay is barely even monetized - if you pay the premium subscription fee, buy inventory slots, and buy skill trees, that's basically it as far as things you can pay for that affect your actual gameplay. Everything else is cosmetics, cosmetics, cosmetics, cosmetics. The number of people who care deeply about their characters' appearance is clearly not a small or insignificant minority. They may not be roleplayers but they definitely like to play dress-up.

Furthermore, look at how many games on the market already have extremely robust character creation options (like the games I listed above). They wouldn't invest so much time and effort into such options if they didn't contribute significantly to a game's appeal.

Even if I personally don't roleplay in a game (I don't really do much of that in Dragon's Dogma or PSO2, for example) I still have a difficult time getting into an RPG if I don't feel attached to my character, if I don't feel some level of connection to them. There are exceptions, naturally, but generally speaking if a game gives me character creation it should be good character creation or I'm just not going to give it a second glance. It's just that high on my list of priorities. If it's not there you're just not even going to get my foot in the door. I know for a fact that I am not alone in this.

Of course the game itself needs to be good to hold a player's attention over the long haul, but that is an almost entirely separate concern from the character creation, as I've noted before. The team building the art assets and the systems for character creation are generally not the same people working on systems design. You can have both. The problem is getting there.

Naunet · **05-06-2014, 06:11 PM**

Only three of those are MMOs, but really... Four or five games with extensive body customization is not anywhere close to a significant number. The vast majority of MMOs don't offer body shapes that diverge from standard female and male beauty. That's not to say they shouldn't, just that they don't.

Also, body sliders means a lot of work for the modeling/art team fitting all the armors to every possible slider point so that there isn't terrible clipping. Preset body types are muchÂ easier to work with from a time invested vs. payout perspective, and I'm okay with that. Just gimme a bust and height slider (as well as one for muscle definition, which wouldn't alter the body as it conforms to gear at all and is thus veryÂ simple), combined with some different body types and I'm good!

Flickering Ember · **05-06-2014, 06:29 PM**

I don't need a massive character creation tool to be happy. I was happy with WoW's, actually. The difference between Wildstar and WoW is that there is no real variety between races, IMO, while the races from WoW are clearly very different from each other. A game does not need thorough character creation but what is there should be generally likeable and not feel alienating to its audiences.Â
If there aren't a lot of character options then the options the creator does have should count and allow for variety. A small creator that offers only more of the same doesn't feel like a character creator.

Ildur · **05-06-2014, 06:33 PM**

(05-06-2014, 06:01 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: To be fair to Blade & Soul, the Wuxia movies it takes influence from most certainly do NOT treat their female characters as "soldiers". I can be more forgiving of such things when they're very obviously not trying to be realistic in any form or fashion.

That doesn't excuse them for not, say, giving more options for walking and running animations and the like. I'd really like to see more games provide something like that. After all, how someone moves can say a LOT about their personality or what they're after.

The cartoons that inspire Wildstar art style do not always treat their characters as soldiers, either, so I don't know where you are trying to go with that. Wildstar isn't trying to be realistic either. There's telekinetic mages, spells carved into ammunition, a rock based lifeform (or lifeforms, actually), and 'primal' energies which is just a fancy sci-fi-esque name for "elemental magic". And just like B&S, it's a game going for a non standard art-style, minus the 'photo-realism'.

With that said, it would be nice if Wildstar customization wasn't so avereage, and adding different types of walking/running animations would be excellent. Wish all games had that just as they have hairstyles. But I think the only game that did that was Aion, as far as I can remember, and only after a long while. Animations take a lot more time than simple modelling and texturing.

Zyrusticae · **05-06-2014, 07:32 PM**

(05-06-2014, 06:33 PM)Ildur Wrote: The cartoons that inspire Wildstar art style do not always treat their characters as soldiers, either, so I don't know where you are trying to go with that. Wildstar isn't trying to be realistic either.

Well, I was saying (poorly) that it's less about characters being realistic or playing to an archetype like "soldiers" and more about simply having a diversity of options and styles.

(05-06-2014, 06:11 PM)Naunet Wrote: Only three of those are MMOs, but really... Four or five games with extensive body customization is not anywhere close to a significant number. The vast majority of MMOs don't offer body shapes that diverge from standard female and male beauty. That's not to say they shouldn't, just that they don't.

You know, I didn't even mention Soul Calibur IV & V (yes, even fighting games can have strong character creation), APB, Champions Online, the (now defunct) City of Heroes/Villains, or any number of other games that I've likely never played or heard of that follow the same line of thought. Some get closer than others but they're still noteworthy in terms of how much attention they got purely for their character creation.

Champions and the Soul Calibur games in particular continue to impress me with the sheer variety of what you can build with them, even if they have some technical problems and odd limitations. I still wonder sometimes why not more games let you build your entire outfit out of parts that you collect. Clipping aside, which is always going to be a problem regardless, there's a lot of potential in simply giving the players more tools to control their looks.

(05-06-2014, 06:11 PM)Naunet Wrote: Also, body sliders means a lot of work for the modeling/art team fitting all the armors to every possible slider point so that there isn't terrible clipping. Preset body types are muchÂ easier to work with from a time invested vs. payout perspective, and I'm okay with that. Just gimme a bust and height slider (as well as one for muscle definition, which wouldn't alter the body as it conforms to gear at all and is thus veryÂ simple), combined with some different body types and I'm good!

This is a fair point, but also an overstated one. Both PSO2 and Blade & Soul have an absolutely absurd variety of outfits despite a ridiculous bevy of available sliders, though granted both games also had insanely long development times and large budgets (not to mention all their outfits are one-piece) so I don't know if it's realistic for other developers to follow their example.

Regardless, I would be okay with what you said. I'm not THAT particular. I just prefer to have the options there rather than not.

(05-06-2014, 06:29 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: I don't need a massive character creation tool to be happy. I was happy with WoW's, actually. The difference between Wildstar and WoW is that there is no real variety between races, IMO, while the races from WoW are clearly very different from each other. A game does not need thorough character creation but what is there should be generally likeable and not feel alienating to its audiences.Â
If there aren't a lot of character options then the options the creator does have should count and allow for variety. A small creator that offers only more of the same doesn't feel like a character creator.

Problem with WoW, at least in my case, is that none of the races actually appeal to me. This could simply be an art style issue (as noted previously), but I would posit that a stronger character creation tool would allow me to get into the game more easily. As it is, none of the races appeal to me so there's literally nothing I can do about that with the given tools.

Ashren Dotharl · **05-06-2014, 09:26 PM**

There is an important factor to keep in mind when considering things like character creation however, and more importantly character models, and that is demographic. When developers set out to make a game they often do so with a demographic in mind well before they ever start programming the first line of code. When a game is in its concept stage lead developers will decide who they want to target with their game, who will bring the most money to them, and how can they attract that market the most. There's an age old saying that applies best here; "you can't please everyone."

Wildstar targets the same market typical to World of Warcraft, the typical "Armchair Warrior" which basically means that the vast majority of their targeted demographic are males between the ages of puberty and dead. If you try to make a product that appeals to every single person then you ultimately end up with a piece of crap because you can't appeal to everyone without also offending everyone.

Group A is offended by the lack of "androgynous female character models" so the developers add them into the game to try to appeal to a wider demographic, however they've now aliented Group B because the idea of a non-standard female body is disgusting, or at least foreign, to their sensibilities so they find the addition offensive and are now in the same situation Group A was in before the addition.

Ultimately both groups are minorities, the people who want it, and the people who are offended by it, because the majority group, the people pretty much in the majority of the targeted demographic, just don't give a fuck so they get exactly what they want in either scenario. As I mentioned above, Wildstar's obvious intended demographic are pretty much guys. What is the best way to appeal to that demographic? Macho men and women with overly sexualized physiques, because lets be honest with ourselves; 90% of the female models you see in a game are played by guys.

« Next Oldest \| Next Newest »
Pages (24): « Previous 1 … 13 14 15 16 17 … 24 Next » Jump to page:

Future MMO Prospects

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes