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Warren Castille · **06-11-2014, 12:56 PM**

(06-11-2014, 12:49 PM)Tiergan Wrote:
(06-11-2014, 12:44 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: My kingdom for a competent enemy mastermind that isn't

1) Garlean
2) Secretly a Demon
3) "Secretly a demon"
4) A Garlean who is also a demon

... Are there really that many bad guys out there who are secretly demons? o_o

In my experiences? If they aren't overtly a Garlean, they're secretly a spy. By my estimation approximately 57% of Eorzea is actually spies for the Empire. Those that aren't are actually Voidsent, or secretly Voidsent and don't know it yet.

Aya · **06-11-2014, 12:59 PM**

(06-11-2014, 12:56 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: In my experiences? If they aren't overtly a Garlean, they're secretly a spy. By my estimation approximately 57% of Eorzea is actually spies for the Empire. Those that aren't are actually Voidsent, or secretly Voidsent and don't know it yet.

Considering what the Garleans are up to, that's not too surprising Smile

I still prefer the more petty villain type, maybe that's just because they're more likely to try to impress Aya with gifts!

cuideag · **06-11-2014, 01:07 PM**

(06-11-2014, 12:18 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Villain types are generally outlaws, and as such wouldn't really be welcome in the more normal parts of the game's population. I'm sure there's room for a magnificent bastard Lex Luthor-type who's just too rich and socially/politically powerful to be touched by normal law enforcement but most bad guys I've seen are all Empire/Mwahaha-moustache-twirling-for-the-evulz type one-dimensionals that only exist to serve as a boss at the end of an arc.

I feel villains benefit from operating in the shadows. Blog posts and IC forum posts help give them a presence, but it's difficult to do in game just on account of them being The Bad Guy. They have a hard time hanging out in game unless they're being bad guys, and even then it's rough because I find it hard to believe anybody's going to let their villain get picked off in a random open-RP that the Heroes happen to stumble upon.

Feel free to disregard since I'm a boring do-gooder anyway, but I think the best way to have a villain in-game is to not have them be in-game until the plot demands it.

Alternatively someone could shape a mountain into a skull and have the bad guys hang out in there. I think us light-aligned folks would be willing to give concede that.

^ ^ This more or less. It's not as tricky RPing out in the open where do-gooders might kick your face in if your character is careful and is not doing blatantly not-good things. RP threads and other more private and/or controlled means can do wonders for when you're actually getting down to bad business.

Being able to plot things out with the people involved helps a lot, too, IMO, so the goodies and baddies alike can have some reasonable pacing for story developments. And twist!!

Berrod Armstrong · **06-11-2014, 01:12 PM**

(06-11-2014, 12:44 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(06-11-2014, 12:33 PM)Aya Wrote: There seems to be incredible room for villains in Limsa and Ul'dah, provided they're not of the "out to destroy the world" types. Both cities are filled with criminals and pseudo-criminals, who managed to live "within" the law through influence and bribery.
My kingdom for a competent enemy mastermind that isn't

1) Garlean
2) Secretly a Demon
3) "Secretly a demon"
4) A Garlean who is also a demon

Not all villains are criminals, outlaws or cookie cutter evil! Simply playing an antagonizing individual can be extremely rewarding and fun. It's amazing how great it is to just play a person who's just -mean-. SOCIAL VILLAINRY. Myessss.

Warren Castille · **06-11-2014, 01:25 PM**

(06-11-2014, 01:12 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote:
(06-11-2014, 12:44 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(06-11-2014, 12:33 PM)Aya Wrote: There seems to be incredible room for villains in Limsa and Ul'dah, provided they're not of the "out to destroy the world" types. Both cities are filled with criminals and pseudo-criminals, who managed to live "within" the law through influence and bribery.
My kingdom for a competent enemy mastermind that isn't

1) Garlean
2) Secretly a Demon
3) "Secretly a demon"
4) A Garlean who is also a demon
Not all villains are criminals, outlaws or cookie cutter evil! Simply playing an antagonizing individual can be extremely rewarding and fun. It's amazing how great it is to just play a person who's just -mean-. SOCIAL VILLAINRY. Myessss.

For my money, the best villain is the one that opposes your character specifically. Doesn't have to be world changing, but should make a personal impact. That's much, much harder to do though so I see why people don't go for that.

Roen · **06-11-2014, 01:29 PM**

How to integrate Villains into RP...

For me, my antagonists do not walk around looking for heroes to foil. (although playing a common thug can be refreshing sometimes too) Those I play are usually already integrated into storylines through OOC communication with the players.Â They have personal goals and personal targets. It is also much easier to do since ... well, you can't affect the world setting anyways.

I have also integrated my antagonists into other storylines, where they are NOT playing the villain so that I can explore the character's past and different aspects of their personality. None of my non-good characters think of themselves as villains. They have a purpose, a mission, or a path in life they need to follow for whatever reason, and sometimes it results in harm to others. Some have an internal code that they follow, others... have no moral compass to restrict them what-so-ever. But they all do think they are doing something that needs to be done, or is worth doing.

Although Rae will never think of herself as a hero either. She is not delusional.Â Laugh

AND while Rae is not technically Garlean ... it would be a shame to lump and dismiss all Garlean affiliated characters as stereotypical non-imaginative "Garlean villains." One of my favorite antagonistic characters to play against in this game is a Garlean loyalist and she is a hoot and a half to RP with and complex as hell (you know who you are).

Else you are going to miss out on a lot of great potential RP. I love the Garlean Empire as a whole in that their mission statement is not necessarily wrong. Â And people from the Empire are not all evil boogy man that Eorzeans tell their children about.

Saiden · **06-11-2014, 01:34 PM**

(06-11-2014, 01:25 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: For my money, the best villain is the one that opposes your character specifically. Doesn't have to be world changing, but should make a personal impact. That's much, much harder to do though so I see why people don't go for that.

In my past roleplaying experiences, I have always found this approach to be much more successful. Stereotypical boss-style villains tend to get boring fairly quickly because the arcs can never be resolved if it is someone's main character - nobody is going to allow their character to be killed permanently, so it just turns into trading vigorous monologues. "You are evil!" "Yes, yes I am." "We shall stop you!" "Nay, I shall behead your stepmother!"

Having personal villains or antagonists always seem to allow for much more interesting storylines. Maybe a slew of other PC's do not view the person as a villain, but instead consider your character the antagonist. Manipulation, drawing lines in the sand, personal feuds - all of those things seem to have much more long lasting capabilities than traditional mustache twirling villains. The latter tend to work fine for a specific, partially pre-constructed storyline where they are not someone's main character - but tend to fizzle out after that.

Kage · **06-11-2014, 01:37 PM**

(06-11-2014, 12:59 PM)Aya Wrote: I still prefer the more petty villain type, maybe that's just because they're more likely to try to impress Aya with gifts!

That explains why Aya likes C'kayah more than Kage Tongue

As someone who's gotten an antagonistic rival of sorts... it's pretty interesting. You both become each others' supporting characters of sorts while playing your character's 'own main story' at the same time.

And then sometimes you see villains who don't really see themselves as either a hero or a villain. Sometimes they're also the most terrifying and competent of villains that you want to cower away from. Others you just want to wring their necks or kick them a head bop.

Zaiaku · **06-11-2014, 01:52 PM**

(06-11-2014, 12:59 PM)Aya Wrote: I still prefer the more petty villain type, maybe that's just because they're more likely to try to impress Aya with gifts!

Haha zaiaku showers Aya with gil just for bringing him water.

Warren Castille · **06-11-2014, 02:01 PM**

It's always refreshing to see the different RP philosophies people bring with them into the community.

Aya · **06-11-2014, 02:10 PM**

(06-11-2014, 01:52 PM)Zaiaku Wrote: Haha zaiaku showers Aya with gil just for bringing him water.

*Dances under all of that falling gil* woooo!

C'kayah Polaali · **06-11-2014, 02:34 PM**

Some games lend themselves to playing villains a little more than others. Everquest II, for instance, has a whole set of evil races with their own evil quests that make it pretty easy to make a character who's simply "one of those". Final Fantasy 14, on the other hand, doesn't really.

But!

One thing Final Fantasy 14 does have in spades is grey area. Are the Ul'dahn's good or evil? The opening cutscene has Brass Blades planting somnus on a wagon so they can extort money from the driver, after all. Grey area is a petty villains best friend.

Background aside, as someone who solely plays villains in FF, and does so actively, I think I can speak to this. I wrote in the shy RP guide that it's good to approach RP as if you were a supporting character in someone else's roleplay, and there's nowhere that this applies more than to villain characters. Heroes abound in Eorzea! But without villains to struggle against, what do they actually have? That's right, nothing. Be that something for them!

In C'kayah's case, he's a grey area villain: he doesn't twirl his moustache in a dastardly manner while plotting the death of everyone around him. Instead he's a morally flexible man trying to make his way in a morally flexible world, and choosing to do so on the wrong side of the law. It's easy to get a lot of play with him: He's out there in the world. He acts openly. He'll discuss black market dealings in a public tavern, for instance. This provides hooks for other people to act on.

The other thing I do with C'kayah is to offer his "services" as a villain for other people's arcs. I did this when I first started playing, and it turned into the NHSC, which at its height had 9 player character grey area villains working in other people's arcs. More recently, a similar thing is happening with my new organization, Tylwyth Narah. This is really just an application of the idea that I'm playing a supporting character in someone else's story. It doesn't mean that this is all I do: C'kayah has his own story in which he's the hero, after all. But playing the supporting villain does get me a lot of RP.

Setoh, on the other hand, is evil. He's a rigidly ethical man with no morals to speak of. A contract "cleaner", he's much like a genie: If you hire him, he will do whatever you ask him to do. It might not be what you want him to do, but it will be what you asked him to do. But because of this, it's a lot harder to play him openly. I partially get around this by not playing him a ton, but I also tend to play his actual crimes out in party chat instead of public say. This allows him to develop a reputation without being out there all the time. OOCly, Setoh is purely a supporting character. He plays in other people's arcs on request, and that's it.

One thing to note with both C'kayah and Setoh is that neither of them are stereotypical villains. Even Setoh, who is pretty damned evil, isn't your standard "I expect you to die, Mr. Bond" villain. Neither are supernatural. Neither are Garleans (no offense to those who play Garleans!). They're both ordinary men living in an extraordinary world.

I'll end with one big sticking point that I always make sure people understand when I'm talking to them about playing villains: Expect to lose! While the villains can (and do) win sometimes, most of the stories we tell each other in the game - and that is ultimately what roleplaying is: storytelling - end with the heroes victorious. As a villain you have to be comfortable rolling with this. It doesn't mean your character dies, necessarily. Just that you should expect your character to fail. To lose.

That said, roleplaying a villain can be a very rewarding experience, and one I can't recommend enough.

Sophia_Grave · **06-11-2014, 02:37 PM**

I do 80% of my RP as my main who is a 'villain'. Its funny, because I definitely don't see her as a villain with the way I play her. She has a code, a set of goals, and is generally a nice person. It is certainly tough, but not impossible. You just have to plan and establish a set of rules. People also have to be honest with their characters. Metagaming is a common plot fizzler for me. Its never outright and brazen like one would think; I find that it is more that players absolutely can not stand when the wool is pulled over their characters eyes, which makes their characters absurdly ready for any situation under the sun.

Take one instance, where Sophia was going to steal some documents from a player's office. Sophia was not allowed by the other player to pickpocket the owner's key because he was too vigil, she could not flip any his friends and employees because they were too loyal, and his office was 'impervious' to break in. Now, this didn't happen at once of course; these were shot down one by one over about a week because the player felt they made his character uncharacteristically vulnerable. While understand paranoia even to a trope-y extent, even Batman gets punched, fooled, and beaten.

Essentially, no matter what kind of villain you are, from mastermind to petty thug, you exploit weaknesses to fulfill your goal. They sort of have to be there ><

On the other hand, even Villains need help. The "100% evil asshole" doesn't work in RP because no one is forced to associate with you like video game / TV underlings are. Even Kefka had to play nice to his boss until he got his chance to be at the top. Even then, influencing others through fear or sheer power does not work in RP because 90% of characters are heroic and will stand up to you.

Saiden · **06-11-2014, 02:49 PM**

Sorry for the second post, but someone else mentioning grey area made me wish I had included it in my previous one. I think that is why so many people can feel iffy about the term "villain." It may bring to mind dastardly scoundrels whose only aim in the world is to eliminate life itself or cause absolute chaos at every turn - those kinds of characters rarely work in MMOs.Â

But if one is willing to redefine the term villainÂ or drop it altogether, then the shades of grey are able to enter in. You are able to have cads, ignoble thieves, noble thieves, arrogant zealots, too far gone anti-heroes, and all sorts of other possibilities. When people hear "villain," they think of the Wicked Witch of the West cackling incessantly and threatening your pets. Grey areas let people step away from the exaggerated stereotypes.

All it takes to become a villain in someone else's eyes is for them to hate you.

Leomoon · **06-11-2014, 05:27 PM**

Be more like a Anit-hero or self indulgent. To be a good villain you don't think "I will do evil!" you have to have reasons an motivation for doing the action you will take. One good way is to take a regular hero like losing a village or a loved one to some bad dudes and then instead of making them do good you make them out right kill people.

One way is to have him round up some bandits and pretty much slaughter them in RP it is a little harder because we can't round up NPC's but you can have a story of it or have your character be stealing money or strong arming people for information.

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Playing as a Villain

RPC has moved! These pages have been kept for historical purposes