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Val · **07-06-2014, 05:18 PM**

(07-06-2014, 04:39 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: in theory you can be somebody who knows Conjury and Thaumaturgy (White and Black magic is a different monster, since with white magic you need to be able to access the Succor and the Elementals are currently being bitchy about that and Black magic is the void? I'm not 100% on BLM lore here) but in FFXIV you wouldn't be a SCHOLAR. I'm talking about the jobs themselves, not just "some guy who wields a sword" (Which ironically is the name of things in Japanese. "Gladiator" is actually just "Sword User" in Japanese so I believe that was their intent to be vague). She wants to be a BLUE MAGE not some vague mage in the corner, meaning you need specific context for BLUE MAGE.

There's a difference between saying your a Sword User and saying your a Paladin. We're talking about very specific, Final Fantasy jobs within the FFXIV lore. Which have their own abilities, their own training regimens, and their own lore that deserve to be respected.

Well yes, in that context then there would be a definite limitation. However, those jobs themselves are only limited to the crystals given if I'm not mistaken. None of my characters are the main character/group, so they'd never be able to receive one of those.

But I believe Yangh is simply trying to ascertain whether or not the idea of RPing Blue Mage-like skills is feasible and accepted. Same goes for those that RP Dark Knight and Ninjas and other things. The job is just a name/class title that is given to game restrictions.

LiadansWhisper · **07-06-2014, 05:20 PM**

(07-06-2014, 03:36 PM)Val Wrote: But you're still letting the game and its mechanics dictate what you can and can't do, if I'm reading correctly. Why can't a "scholar" use white and black magic? Just because the class itself in the game is unable to do so doesn't mean that they can't. One could argue that some scholar spells are even black magic oriented, such as their drain ability and a couple of others.

Lorewise, the reason a "Scholar" can't use both white and black magic is that White Magic is being sat on by a pack of Elementals that say, "Nope." Â Additionally, in this game, White and Black Magic are portrayed as anathema to each other. Â Trying to use both, even without the monitoring that the Elementals are doing of Succor (that's White Magic), would probably make you explode. Â They come from completely different places (in terms of how they work), require completely different motivations to invoke, and seem to behave like oil and water.

Val · **07-06-2014, 05:45 PM**

(07-06-2014, 05:20 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Lorewise, the reason a "Scholar" can't use both white and black magic is that White Magic is being sat on by a pack of Elementals that say, "Nope." Â Additionally, in this game, White and Black Magic are portrayed as anathema to each other. Â Trying to use both, even without the monitoring that the Elementals are doing of Succor (that's White Magic), would probably make you explode. Â They come from completely different places (in terms of how they work), require completely different motivations to invoke, and seem to behave like oil and water.

I totally get that! Perhaps I should have used restorative magic rather than the phrase "white magic." I understand that White comes from the elementals and that there are certain things in place keeping people from using it. But the point is still rather constantly being missed that in game mechanics =/= RP, which is what I've been trying to get at :p

ArmachiA · **07-06-2014, 05:48 PM**

I'm not talking about game mechanics at all though? Not once have I mentioned the mechanics of a class/job. I've only mentioned the LORE of a job. Those are two very different things. Lore != MEchanics. Lore is the construct on which the universe is built. It's why even though mechanically you can spam Holy in Mor Dhona, LORE WISE you can't even have access to the spell. At all.

The OP was saying she wanted to make lore about Blue Mage based on the already available information we have on Blue Mage in other FF games. I was telling her to be wary because that lore could be way off when the actually job comes out (Like Scholar in FFXI and Scholar in FFXIV are two very different jobs spell wise and Lore wise [Mechanically SCH could also be a healer in FFXI so mechanically not too different]). What if Blue Mage comes out and you don't absorb spells from monsters? They just already learned from animals and mimicked the spells? Stuff like that. Sure she could say she still absorbs spells but in FFXIV she wouldn't be a Blue Mage, lore wise.

Summoner really is the best example of this, because if it would have came out later we would have had many RPers with full sized Primals as their minions, only to learn later that (Lore wise) you only get access to a piece of the primals power in the form of Egi's.

LiadansWhisper · **07-06-2014, 06:04 PM**

(07-06-2014, 05:45 PM)Val Wrote: I totally get that! Perhaps I should have used restorative magic rather than the phrase "white magic." I understand that White comes from the elementals and that there are certain things in place keeping people from using it. But the point is still rather constantly being missed that in game mechanics =/= RP, which is what I've been trying to get at :p

I get that. Â But, there are also Lore reasons (that are reflected in game mechanics, in some places) that back up what I'm saying.

Truth is, you can call your character whatever you want. Â I can call myself an Awakened Mage. Â You can claim to be Ironman. Â And that is, ultimately, totally up to you and me. Â The player is the ultimate arbiter of what they are playing.

That doesn't mean Lore would back it up. Â But you can play whatever you want, and I'll be the first person to go, "More power to ya, bro." Â I just might avoid the character in question. :-P

To me, a bigger concern is that when we're dealing with classes for which we have very little or almost no lore on, we may very well be setting ourselves up for a serious issue later on down the line. Â A lot of people assumed that Scholar in FFXIV would be like Scholar in FFXI, and they're basically not the same at all. Â What happens if, a year down the road in the expansion, they introduce one of those non-available classes and the Lore is completely and utterly opposed to everything you've been playing? Â I mean, how do you even reconcile that?

That would be my big question. Â I'm of the mind that if you're gonna do something that's not currently in game (or not entirely spelled out in Lore), you should keep it on the down low. Â Try to mimic what is in game as much as possible, and I personally wouldn't have that character ever tell another person what they are (unless there were some really extenuating circumstances). Â That's just me, but I am not entirely sure of the point to coming up with rules here when they could just as easily get tossed into Pluto in the next few months.

Yangh · **07-06-2014, 06:10 PM**

I'd like to reel this back slightly. I should point out i'm not looking to create any lore to make this idea work. I'm simply combining a scimitar, gems that are basically unaspected crystals and using those crystals to cast a spell.

We've seen in FF14 many things can be done using crystals such as summoning primals, cooking, crafting. All manner of things. While it is blue mage theme it is NOT blue mage, it is VERY far from it.

So I decided that the power lies witht he sword NOT the wielder. That way once Blue mage drops? I can throw that sword away and pursuit the job itself.

No retcon required!

Thoughts?

LiadansWhisper · **07-06-2014, 06:14 PM**

(07-06-2014, 06:10 PM)Yangh Wrote: I'd like to reel this back slightly. I should point out i'm not looking to create any lore to make this idea work. I'm simply combining a scimitar, gems that are basically unaspected crystals and using those crystals to cast a spell.

We've seen in FF14 many things can be done using crystals such as summoning primals, cooking, crafting. All manner of things. While it is blue mage theme it is NOT blue mage, it is VERY far from it.

So I decided that the power lies witht he sword NOT the wielder. That way once Blue mage drops? I can throw that sword away and pursuit the job itself.

No retcon required!

Thoughts?

You can seriously do whatever you want with your character. Â You do not need my - or anyone else's - approval to play your character.

Val · **07-06-2014, 06:17 PM**

(07-06-2014, 06:10 PM)Yangh Wrote: I'd like to reel this back slightly. I should point out i'm not looking to create any lore to make this idea work. I'm simply combining a scimitar, gems that are basically unaspected crystals and using those crystals to cast a spell.

We've seen in FF14 many things can be done using crystals such as summoning primals, cooking, crafting. All manner of things. While it is blue mage theme it is NOT blue mage, it is VERY far from it.

So I decided that the power lies witht he sword NOT the wielder. That way once Blue mage drops? I can throw that sword away and pursuit the job itself.

No retcon required!

Thoughts?

From what I've seen, this is pretty much the best way to do it. Have it be through the sword and should the class ever actually release down the road, you'll be able to adjust accordingly. Artifacts of power/whatever are pretty much always out there, and I don't see there's any reason to say this one in particular couldn't =)

ArmachiA · **07-06-2014, 06:17 PM**

I've said it before, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with the idea, but lore does come with the territory. Where did that sword come from? Scimitars aren't thing in FFXIV currently, so you'd have to explain it. The use of crystals in order to make it work, where did you learn that? You said your clan, well how did your clan learn of this technique? You're building lore automatically. Arabic isn't an Eorzean language, where did that come from? Before you know it you have an entire lore base around a class that you aren't sure will be what you envisioned.

I like the fact you're willing to drop it in order to learn Blue Mage once it comes out. Depending on lore, you can always say your clan learned a bastardized version of Blue Mage and when it actually is released into the game you decide to learn the "correct" one. But that would really only work depending on lore.

I do agree with Liadan, I wouldn't go running your mouth about it ICly, only telling a select few, because it can easily spiral into your character suddenly being a trainer for all these Blue Mages or becoming the inventor of Blue Mage or something. There should probably be a reason to keep it quiet anyway - be it Garleans or whatever.

Kage · **07-06-2014, 06:24 PM**

(07-06-2014, 04:54 AM)å²¡æœ¬ ç§€æ¨¹ Wrote:
(07-06-2014, 04:07 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: SE has come in and said Thief wouldn't work lore wise so they changed it to rogue
They specifically avoid using the term thief. I believe Thief WILL be added into the game later on as a job and that a Rogue and thief are too very different things. So someone roleplaying as a thief is perfectly entitled to do so. Regardless thief is not just a class, anyone who wants to steal stuff could be a thief. So just calling yourself a thief is not really something foreign to the FFXIV world as it is in all worlds.

I've quoted some things that are mainly off-topic... But as ArmachiA said, Square specifically said that Rogue IS Thief but they cannot use the term is because of lore.

But I think there is something different from saying one is a thief and then saying that some one is a Thief (if it had been termed that way). Just as saying, aether crystals or what not allow someone to cast generic mob spells is different from someone being a Blue Mage.

However, I think ArmachiA does have good points about the fact that you are generally building some lore about how your character is able to use the scimitar and its crystals. Although, I'm not sure what is meant about Scimitars not being a thing because... I thought they were? Brass Blades use them and the Aeolian Scimitar exists in the Relic Reborn quest?

Yangh · **07-06-2014, 06:24 PM**

(07-06-2014, 06:17 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: I've said it before, I don't necessarily see anything wrong with the idea, but lore does come with the territory. Where did that sword come from? Scimitars aren't thing in FFXIV currently, so you'd have to explain it. The use of crystals in order to make it work, where did you learn that? You said your clan, well how did your clan learn of this technique? You're building lore automatically. Arabic isn't an Eorzean language, where did that come from? Before you know it you have an entire lore base around a class that you aren't sure will be what you envisioned.

I like the fact you're willing to drop it in order to learn Blue Mage once it comes out. Depending on lore, you can always say your clan learned a bastardized version of Blue Mage and when it actually is released into the game you decide to learn the "correct" one. But that would really only work depending on lore.

I do agree with Liadan, I wouldn't go running your mouth about it ICly, only telling a select few, because it can easily spiral into your character suddenly being a trainer for all these Blue Mages or becoming the inventor of Blue Mage or something. There should probably be a reason to keep it quiet anyway - be it Garleans or whatever.

Couldn't agree more with this post. I tread a very fine line that's for certain. Lore specific to my charatcer is exactly that, it only effects my character and it adds a much need sprinkle of different to those around me (How many people do you see speaking in different languages anymore?).

The sword itself is infact a very old one and it is infact from her Clan from a very long time ago when they were less secretive. Its another tool used for killing just like her martial assassination arts.

I'm not going to be an inventor of anything, the sword is EVERYTHING. If someone takes that sword? THEY can use its power providing they attune those crystals will skills from scratch (Different for every user).

Does this make any sort of sense or am I babbling >.<

[EDIT] - Scimitar's do exsist in FF14... they're just not called Scimitar's. For example, Aldis' sword, The sword of Nald IS a Scimitar.

ArmachiA · **07-06-2014, 06:30 PM**

(07-06-2014, 06:24 PM)ExKage Wrote: Although, I'm not sure what is meant about Scimitars not being a thing because... I thought they were? Brass Blades use them and the Aeolian Scimitar exists in the Relic Reborn quest?

Let me clarify that one because that IS a mechanics issue. Currently, we're assuming the weapon for Blue Mage is going to be "Scimitar" which doesn't exist beyond being called "Swords" for Paladins to use. It's possible later on they'll retcon all the Scimitars models out (They are doing that with Daggers in 2.3 in prep for NIN) but honestly we don't really know what the weapon will be. It's a good chance it's Scimitar though, they haven't changed the weapon of any class as far as I know (SMN doesn't count it doesn't have an iconic weapon)

Yangh · **07-06-2014, 06:33 PM**

That's a fair trade off I feel. I don't mind calling a Scimitar shaped sword a sword but I will describe as a scimitar-like sword with a curved blade adorned with 8 distinct jewels of varying colour and a strange foreign script engraved at the flat of the blade.

Is that fair?

ArmachiA · **07-06-2014, 06:35 PM**

I think it's safe to call it a Scimitar, since it's most LIKELY going to be the weapon for Blue Mages. On the very very very off chance that it's not, it's not a huge ass retcon.

As a side note, just sometimes... I hate the "What your weapon is, is what you are" deal. What are they gonna do if RDM is a thing? Rapiers? THESE ARE ALL SWORDS SE YOU AIN'T FOOLIN ANYONE.

Kage · **07-06-2014, 06:40 PM**

Ohhh so what it is, is that Scimitar is something iconic for Blue Mages in FF history but in-game currently it's just another type of sword that sword users wield.

Which is similar to how there are regular thieves and well... THIEFs?

Most of what I would consider Blue Mage stuff is from Strago and FF6 so the "iconics of Jobs/Classes" sorta go over my head. ... never actually was good at FF3 or 5 >.>;

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