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trilbyhat · **07-28-2013, 06:19 PM**

A very interesting character concept for me would be a doctor or a field surgeon using physical medicine to accompany their Conjuration magics. But I am finding little information on what would be the appropriate practices and technology that would fit within Eorzea. Is there anyone else who has considered these topics and willing to provide insight?

Within lore, are there examples of ailments that Conjurers have not been able to treat effectively?Â

Would some basic surgical knowledge help the recovery time of patients, such as sutures over a large laceration before a Conjurer could be located and have their magic applied? And would there have been enough cause for the technology to develop, perhaps before Conjurers were as widespread and available?

After reading several related posts on how magic works, such asÂ here, Conjuration magic seems very similar to older medicine traditions. Such examples are theÂ Five ElementsÂ and drawing each elemental power to a being to encourage a patient to heal faster as well as sensing and treating ailments such as diseases or poisons. Perhaps traditional methods involving this view of medicine would have become more in practice, for instance acupuncture and herbs that would help with elemental flows within a patient?Â

Also does the existence of Magitek grafts give the potential for earlier surgical methods being known, for instance removing limbs safely as well as an understanding of anatomy?

Myxie Tryxle · **07-28-2013, 07:08 PM**

We've had debates about the prevalence and availability of alchemical cures and healing magic on other threads before, leading to a wide range of interpretation as to the medical application of spells like Esuna.

My guess would be that many environmental factors like communicable diseases, it's likely they would be alleviated or even cured by Esuna. Diseases like tetanus and botulism are the result of toxins building up in the body and attacking certain cell types. Even if esuna didn't cure the disease, it would alleviate the buildup of toxins and reduce the severity of symptoms or the likelihood of death.

Other diseases, like viruses, attack cells directly, high-jack the inner workings, and destroy the cell in order to reproduce the virus. If Esuna isn't a cure all for communicable diseases, it would likely have little effect in these cases because toxins aren't the issue. Rather it's loss of cells (like white blood cells in the case of HIV).

When it comes to genetic diseases, that's where I think you'll see the most need. If your stance is that magic helps return the body to homeostatis or its normal function, then genetic diseases would be unaffected because they're hardwired into the patient's biology. Again, this could vary based on the disease (Huntington's and Alzheimer's for example lead to a buildup of toxic proteins in the brain that slowly kills off brain cells leading to impair of function and eventually death). I doubt white magic would have any effect on diseases like cancer, diabetes, cystic fibrosis, androgen insensitivity, or chromosomal disorders like Downs Syndrome or Kleinfelter's.

Also, when it comes to genetic diseases, you have a compounding factor known as "founder effect." The idea here is that when you have a small population moving to a new area and colonizing it, it is likely that for the first few generations you're going to see an over-expression of any recessive disease traits that happened to exist within the small population of colonists. For example, there is a group of Amish in Pennsylvania that is well known for the incidence of polydactyly and dwarfism, because among their founders was someone with the gene for polydactyly and someone with the gene for dwarfism. Consequently, they have the world's highest concentration of six fingered dwarves. Considering that four of the five races in Eorzea are transplants, one would expect founder effect to be prevalent, at least in the smaller communities.

Additional types of medicine I don't feel would be covered by white magic as it is presented: psychology/psychiatry, cosmetic surgery, physical therapy, preventative medicine, obstetrics/midwife, and likely more (I don't know that much about medicine aside from watching House).

Personally, I can see a lot of use for a doctor in Eorzea. White magic generally seems to cover mostly emergency medicine and poison control sorts of issues, possibly infectious disease depending on how technical you wish to get.

I'll clarify a little about founder effect, as reading it over I seem to have described it poorly. Founder effect can occur with any trait, dominant or recessive, disease, benign, or beneficial. It just comes up most often when you talk about the prevalence of genetic diseases. Polydactyly and dwarfism aren't diseases, but they are genetic traits.

Aysun · **07-28-2013, 08:29 PM**

Considering things like potions, ethers, antidotes, etc, exist, I think there is most definitely medicine in Eorzea other than white magic. The Phrontistery (Alchemists' Guild) has many rooms with beds where people are treated with alchemical medicines, rather than magical means. It's likely a 'if one doesn't work try the other' situation or it could be determined by whether the person has access to a magical healer, money for treatment, etc.

There are definitely things that magic and medicine cannot heal in Eorzea as well, as evident by a small group of NPCs outside the conjurers' guild discussing the passing of a child that couldn't be saved by them. There's mentions of a plague that decimated the Hyur population as well (a cure has been found). Even with magic and medicine, Eorzeans are still quite mortal!

I'm sorry I can't provide you with more specifics without the game being up! x_x

Naunet · **07-28-2013, 10:14 PM**

I really, really, really don't like it when magic is used as a cure-all for wounds and illness. It always strikes me as cheap and cutting out a lot of great potential RP. Oh your character is sick - well it's not really that bad; we just need to find a conjurer/priest/mystic/purifier/insert-healer-of-choice-from-any-other-canon-here and you'll be all better!

Yea, no. That's not fun, and it's not really meaningful. It takes the threat of injury and illness away completely, which just makes things feel shallow.

Anyway, mini-rant done! I just had to get that out. XD

So I tend to incorporate a lot of real world medicine whenever characters are injured or fall ill. Magic has its place as a form of triage on the battle - closing gaping wounds superficially, lending vigor to a failing body, curing ailments that are magical in nature (but rather useless against non-magical ailments, such as parasites or viruses or bacteria). It's also used as supplemental to the physical medicine being administered - applications of a healing spell to a wound to help maintain healthy blood and mana (aether) circulation in the body and around the wound location, easing of symptoms (such as nausea or fever) from an illness, calming hysteria, and such.

Anyway, from what I've seen, though ARR is a fairly fantasy-themed universe, it's also rather technologically advanced, and I'd be willing to bet physicians are more than just holistic healers grasping in the dark and fighting to balance a patient's humours. They likely have a solid understanding of physiology, and I'd hazard a guess that they've developed some fairly sophisticated medical techniques. Not as advanced as real life, likely, with our MRIs and our fancy microscopes that can zero in on things that are just unfathomably small, but just look at all the other technology the people of Hydaelyn have come up with. A society as advanced as that is not going to be stuck in the dark ages when it comes to medicine.

Eva · **07-28-2013, 10:46 PM**

There was a discussion some time back about a very similar topic and reviewing the handful of posts there might be worthwhile. Â I'm not going to go into any lengthy detail or repeating anything I said there, but I thought it would be worth dropping the link for anyone who might want to read a bit more about healing magic (as compared and contrasted with more mundane forms of medical treatment).

One thing I did just want to remark quickly on though:

(07-28-2013, 10:14 PM)Naunet Wrote: I really, really, really don't like it when magic is used as a cure-all for wounds and illness. It always strikes me as cheap and cutting out a lot of great potential RP. Oh your character is sick - well it's not really that bad; we just need to find a conjurer/priest/mystic/purifier/insert-healer-of-choice-from-any-other-canon-here and you'll be all better!

Yea, no. That's not fun, and it's not really meaningful. It takes the threat of injury and illness away completely, which just makes things feel shallow.

I can appreciate this and in past RP as an aetherial [and mundane] healer I have usually tried to find a middle ground where both healer and patient can be happy with the outcome as it is intended. Â As a healer though, it's also not fun when that magic which does exist in the lore is simply hand-waved because an injured individual doesn't want to acknowledge that. Â Whether the effects are large or small - and for whatever reason - one should not trivialize the efforts of a healer, whether magical or mundane, because they're also just RPing their character as well.

The most important thing is finding a balance so that there's some nod to the healer's efforts but the patient is suitably incapacitated for whatever end he or she is striving for. Â I hope this makes sense.

Naunet · **07-28-2013, 10:54 PM**

(07-28-2013, 10:46 PM)Eva Wrote: The most important thing is finding a balance so that there's some nod to the healer's efforts but the patient is suitably incapacitated for whatever end he or she is striving for. Â I hope this makes sense.

Of course a balance can be struck - which is why in the paragraph following the one you quoted, I talked about how I generally utilize healing magics in roleplay. xP

Eva · **07-28-2013, 11:04 PM**

Oh I know!! I just had to kind of mini-rant the other way. Balance the equation a bit, or what-have-you. Thumbsup

Naunet · **07-28-2013, 11:08 PM**

(07-28-2013, 11:04 PM)Eva Wrote: Oh I know!! Â I just had to kind of mini-rant the other way. Â Balance the equation a bit, or what-have-you. Â

Haha, gotta love the mini-rants. Sometimes they just come exploding out. Like demons that must be exorcised!

Or exercised. It's important to keep healthy demons in your body. That's official medical stuff there. Make note!

Ildur · **07-29-2013, 12:20 AM**

I'm undecided about the matter. We'll have to wait until we can see how ARR's storylines treats diseases to decide if Esuna is a panacea or just a combat remedy. From what I have played in the Beta, I can't say which is the case.

trilbyhat · **07-29-2013, 01:00 AM**

Thank you very much for the replies and the link to theÂ healing thread! *tips hat* This has helped me already a great deal!

The role that the study of medicine in this setting plays has definitely interested me, and alchemists definitely would have their part in it. It seems closer to the age of the renaissance where poultices have become an officially acknowledged form of study as well as anatomy. I am mainly curious if the technology such as blood transfusions or organ transplants would be among the known methodologies or if perhaps the inclusion of magic would have better analog alternatives? Would the knowledge of microorganisms be present with the biologists of the world, for instance?

Focuses such as physical therapy, preventative medicine, inoculations, and nutrition seem to still have a very valid use within the world then as they are not covered easily by magic. The existence of a widespread plague among the Hyur is very interesting, is there any mention of the means by which the cure was found?

Indeed the outcome should always be in the hands of the injured character's player after reaching a consensus of the results of any healing, magical or non. Roleplaying a healer is far more meaningful if they are not simply a vending machine for cure spells, hence my great interest in combining medicine into healing within what is reasonable for Eorzea but first consulting if such a combination would be reasonable and useful. The constant quest to further one's medical arts to help people is likely what drives most called to the healer's path but my concern is with such powerful magic available if the study of magical healing would overpower the physical physician.

Naunet · **07-29-2013, 01:48 AM**

(07-29-2013, 01:00 AM)trilbyhat Wrote: but my concern is with such powerful magic available if the study of magical healing would overpower the physical physician.

I don't think this would be the case, as I see them covering very different areas of medicine.

Kyatai · **07-29-2013, 08:52 AM**

I've typically RPed my healer characters (or characters with healing abilities) with a mixture of science (logical to the lore/world) and magic (if available).

For example: my necromancer in GW2 was a scientist and healer. Yes, she performed autopsies, took copious notes and experimented with both magical substances and physical in the pursuit of her craft. She was an IC alchemist and physician- in the very core of the craft. She cut, she sutured,... but she augmented her physical interventions with her restorative magic. Positing that only one familiar with the death of tissue and the removal of life can truly understand how to sustain it and return it.
Likewise, it made her a quite able interrogator too... but I digress.
She used both- magic was used as an augment to speed healing and recovery, and to do 'emergency patch up and triage' in the field until a more permanent and effective cure could be used.
She used her blood minion as her emergency direct healing tool (aka the victims blood formed the minion, she controlled it to enable healing, etc, then killed it, returning the essence back to the victim when she was done), potions and surgery as more focused, and the minion again to speed recovery/healing of incisions.

Tl;Dr...
I used a mix of both, with physical manipulation/'true' medicine as the root and magic as the supplement 'tool'.

As far as level of sophistication?
I'd say Garlean medicine would trump all other medicine simply due to their level of tech and so on. They very well MIGHT be able to use the aether to power microscopes and Cat scans/MRI's etc...
But the rest of us would likely not be that advanced. Not so far backward as the Four Humours of Man and bloodletting and so on (tho leeches and maggots ARE excellent tools for medicine...), somewhat more advanced. IMHO.
Poultices, herbal remedies, anatomy, minor surgeries... sure.
Open heart, organ replacement, etc... maybe Garlemald, but not any others.

That said, my Miqo will have a certain level of healing talent, and will utilize a more 'tribal' version of medicine, as is logical per her history.

Ruby · **07-29-2013, 09:35 AM**

This topic drew my interest as a future character that will specialize herself in medicine. I honestly always looked at healing magic as a form of advanced first aid. Just like how we have first aid irl. I prefer thinking that spells like cure do tend the wounds. Even the much more deeper and lethal wounds. However it doesnâ€™t magically restore the blood loss that might have occurred during that time interval between the open injury and the actual cure. I also consider the gameâ€™s version of â€œBeing defeated/downedâ€ as a form of â€œHeâ€™s still alive but injured past the point that a simple cure canâ€™t help.â€. And raise as a form of combination between cure and heart defibrillation. As far as I know, thereâ€™s no phoenix down to replace raise.
Â
Same goes for things like poison and esuna. I consider esuna as a first aid treatment like sucking poison out of a wound. While leaving the treatment through medicine for cases of long unattended poison. Or for the sake of roleplay other unknown diseases. After all, esuna and cure doesnâ€™t heal headaches, nausea, other unknown diseases.
Â
In short, my view boils down to Cure/Raise/Esuna = First Aid. Alchemy/medicine = proper treatment for the bad cases. Besides, thereâ€™s also things like inflammation and bacteria Â that can still affect the body,the moment it is injured. So please be sure to visit your local doctor in the city after being injured. (Shameless self-promotion of my future services ;p )

Isilme · **07-29-2013, 10:14 AM**

I've always played healing magic as a kind of accelerant for the body's natural healing, rather than some kind of super medicine. Healing magic, including conjuration and potions, provides an extra aetheric 'boost' to what would happen naturally, vastly accelerating it.

This means that while curative magic and potions can heal wounds tremendously fast, it can't do things the body couldn't on its own given time. If a bone is broken, and not set before the cure spell is cast, the bone will heal wrong. Cure spells cannot prevent scarring (Though they can minimize it somewhat). While spells like Esuna can wipe out unnatural poisons and speed the purging of natural ones, it would only affect toxins the body could theoretically purge on its own (Though quite likely the person would be horribly weakened or die before this as accomplished).

There are still diseases, ailments and injuries magic cannot fix. Magic cannot regrow lost limbs. Magic cannot bring back the dead. There are likely plagues out there that magic can merely ease the symptoms of. The Alchemist's Guild in Ul'Dah seems to focus more on remedies focused on specific ailments, rather than cure-alls like potions or cure spells, probably because it's necessary to be 100% effective against some of the diseases they fight. You can imagine a trade hub city like Ul'Dah, with a bustling refugee population to boot, keeps them QUITE busy.

Eozean medicine is undoubtably more effective than medieval medicine. I may, in fact, be more effective than our current medicine. It certainly is in the field. And I would rate their understanding of medicine as quite high, though their perspective is through the lens of magic, rather than science. Even if the magic is applied using scientific methods, is is still a completely different ruleset.

Meaning... as we have antibiotic resistant bacteria out there, THEY have their cure magic resistant diseases as well.

Xha'li Moui · **07-29-2013, 05:33 PM**

I've given Xha'li a basic knowledge of conjury, and he knows a bit of "traditional" first aid.Â Basically how I intend to play him is somewhere between a trained first responder and a fully qualified EMT.Â Does he know how what to do if you break your back? Yes.Â Will he send you to see a more qualified healer as soon as possible?Â Yes.

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Medicine in Eorzea

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