+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Off-Topic (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=42)
+--- Forum: Off-Topic Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=14)
+--- Thread: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE (/showthread.php?tid=12084)
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Cato - 06-16-2015
This thread made me realise just how similar Genesis and Thrall are to each other and their respective creators.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Aaron - 06-16-2015
(06-16-2015, 06:05 PM)Griffith! Wrote: Me, I didn't like Genesis because he makes Sephiroth less important as a character. Sephiroth isn't the mastermind - he's a side effect of the real, hidden mastermind's plot. FFVII is just cleaning up the mess left over from Crisis Core, all started by this seemingly random character that was apparently important enough to inform every other central character's actions but not important enough that anyone ever mentioned him outside the game in which he appeared.Oh. Now I can see kinda where the hates coming from. It did kinda degrade Sephiroth as nothing more than a side effect of Genesis grand scheme.Â
The franchise worked better without Genesis because Sephiroth didn't need extra motivation - literally nobody was questioning his motives before CC. All Genesis does, as a character, is steal Sephi's agency as a villain and give Zack another rival to measure himself against.
But I'm not putting the effort in to break down or evaluate the character, if only because that would mean replaying the game. I just don't have that kind of time.
Or, y'know, caring.
But in the end all im really trying to get across is I see Genesis as a legit (and good) character. I loved his cryptic speeches and the say he twisted words. Reminded me of Shakespeare.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Warren Castille - 06-16-2015
To each their own. I preferred Sephiroth as the hero-figure that goes bad as opposed to the manipulated enemy guy.
Griffith said it all far better, though.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Griffith! - 06-16-2015
I might be in the minority here, because I hope they actually do bring in stuff like Genesis and Deepground as a kind of expansion on the original when they do the remake. The only way I'll give a damn about the expanded universe is if there is some evidence of it existing in the original material.
I'm not saying they should shoe-horn everything in, and I hope to god it doesn't derail the plot if it is included, but as an optional sidequest that actually builds on the the crap they introduced in the prequel? Absolutely.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Aaron - 06-16-2015
Fair enough.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Candor - 06-17-2015
Aaron,
I know that you've already acknowledged the arguments of the others, but I think something that you're failing to take into account is that many of these people played FF7 years before any sort of expansion material was even in the pipeline. I was one of these people, playing FF7 when it was first released, and then practically creaming my jeans every time SquareEnix announced new material, starting with DoC. Then, like many others, I was disappointed - with the sole exception of AC. The reason I was disappointed, and the reason that AC was an exception, is because FF7 is a complete entity on its own. It asked all its own questions, and then answers every question that it asked. Nothing was left unaddressed. CC and DoC just add more answers to questions that were already answered.
For example, I could ask you, "What's your favorite color?" And you might reply, "Black, because black is versatile." That's all I need to know, and that's all you need to tell me. Then, a week later, a lifelong friend of yours contacts me and explains that he first liked black, and many years ago he explained to you the merits of black, and so you changed your favorite color from white to black. It's awkward, it's unnecessary, and suddenly your favorite color isn't yours anymore. It's your friend's, and you're just borrowing it.
DoC and CC (especially Genesis) do exactly that to FF7 and Sephiroth. AC does not, because AC happens significantly later, and operates independently of FF7. It asks and answers its own questions. It is by definition a sequel. It adds, instead of reviews and changes.
Now, if that wasn't enough to help you understand where we're coming from, you should take a closer look at the character of Sephiroth as Square Soft (not SquareEnix) executed him. Sephiroth was legendary, powerful, and he was intelligent. More than anything he, was a pretty smart guy. Throughout Sephiroth relevant cut scenes, he's constantly explaining and defining terms for Cloud/Zack. He's familiar with geography, ShinRa personnel, ShinRa corporate history, and the higher sciences of ShinRa's R&D including the specifics of Mako-human experiments and the finer details involved. More so, we're talking about a man who sleeplessly consumes a library on his own, and through myriad puzzle pieces scattered throughout dozens of books, reconstructs a secret past that ShinRa has worked very hard to cover. But most importantly of all, we're talking about a man who masters new abilities the moment he learns that he has them. Remember, Sephiroth was killed, and yet survived, then learned enough about his Jenova union to puppeteer Jenova, Cloud, and other clones from thousands of miles away. He didn't practice that. It's the same as you growing a third arm and immediately knowing how to type 60 wph with it.
The point is that Sephiroth was not a stupid person. He didn't need anyone to hand hold him and connect the dots for him, and implying that he does reduces the enormity of his presence. It's not unlike suddenly learning that Einstein had a best buddy who explained to him the Theory of Relativity, and then Einstein just regurgitated it. That's what Genesis does to Sephiroth.
I hope this helps you understand better what the others have been trying to explain to you.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Aaron - 06-17-2015
I know that you've already acknowledged the arguments of the others, but I think something that you're failing to take into account is that many of these people played FF7 years before any sort of expansion material was even in the pipeline.
^ I was too? I played it the year it came out. I understand everyones point perfectly. My point is youre closing yourself off to stuff just because "it didn't come with the original" which is a pretty unconventional reason not to live something. Sephiroth was and still is one of the best villians of Final Fantasy. To me, how he got there doesn't matter. Hes still badass.
And it's not like Genesis walked him like a puppy to his revelation. He literally had one real talk with him and even then SEPHIROTH didn't really believe him "Whether your words are lies created to deceive me or the truth I've been searching for, it makes no difference. You will rot."
^ one can probably assume Sephiroth found the truth out on his OWN still from that. But it doesn't lessen the fact Genesis put a card on the table.
By this, everyone shouldn't want a remake because it's not with the original Playstation they bought it on and it wont have that blocky nostalgia feel. Or a new car because it wasn't like the first one they ever got.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - cherrybomb - 06-17-2015
The problem isn't just an aversion to anything that didn't happen in the original, though - you're kind of glossing over the more relevant point. Candor's post is absolutely spot-on; introducing a retcon for absolutely no narrative benefit besides over-complication for the sake of it is a major storytelling pitfall. (& as a metal gear fan i'm intimately familiar with it :II) Even putting aside all the stuff that makes Genesis such an obnoxious and trite character, his inclusion is just plain redundant and unnecessary, which is a thing that's endemic to the extended universe style of writing in general.
It's kind of telling that even a lot of the people who really like Crisis Core's story tend to say stuff like, "yea it was surprisingly good whenever Genesis wasn't on screen"
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Spethah - 06-17-2015
Squeenix has been trolling us on a remake for a decade and they're finally announcing it. While I absolutely hate the concept* of the game, I'm very happy and excited to see that Squeenix is finally listening to the fans and are working on something that was revolutionary for it's time. Who knows, it might create another revolution given the current standing of the franchise (XII-XV holds more negative credits than the rest of the series).
I'll have to see whether it would be worthwhile to pay full retail price for a remake or not.
*Please note that the meaning of concept is a generalization of my opinion of the story, characters, dialogue and overall presentation based on the time I've played (233 hours) during the time I played (Release to 2003). While my opinion can be perceived as out of date, it does not mean that I am hating on your wonderful opinion on what you might see as an amazing game. Please do not misunderstand.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Aaron - 06-17-2015
(06-17-2015, 05:57 AM)cherrybomb Wrote: The problem isn't just an aversion to anything that didn't happen in the original, though - you're kind of glossing over the more relevant point. Candor's post is absolutely spot-on; introducing a retcon for absolutely no narrative benefit besides over-complication for the sake of it is a major storytelling pitfall. (& as a metal gear fan i'm intimately familiar with it :II) Even putting aside all the stuff that makes Genesis such an obnoxious and trite character, his inclusion is just plain redundant and unnecessary, which is a thing that's endemic to the extended universe style of writing in general.Except it wasn't really a retcon? SE didn't go "I like this guy so im gonna forget ff VII because I want him in it"
It's kind of telling that even a lot of the people who really like Crisis Core's story tend to say stuff like, "yea it was surprisingly good whenever Genesis wasn't on screen"
They literally took time to work him into the story. I've played all the games like everyone else and I can clearly see there's nothing astoundingly hurtful to anything in vii because of Genesis input.
Not like he picked Seph up and dropped him in Shinra manor. And everyone in CC that knew Genesis was either dead or corrupted in vii so of course he wasn't mentioned in vii.
He wasn't hurting the series contrary to everyones belief. Whether he helped it or was just there however is up to opinion. There's plenty people who liked Genesis as well (im one of em) but on this forum it seems im alone in that regard.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Cato - 06-17-2015
It's...the very definition of a retcon. Sephiroth's story was satisfying enough on his own and his fall from grace already made perfect sense. He made his own conclusions and that was shown in the original game when Genesis didn't exist at all.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Meena - 06-17-2015
Reno in more glorious HD.
*swoon*
fangirling done.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Aaron - 06-17-2015
(06-17-2015, 06:37 AM)Graeham Wrote: It's...the very definition of a retcon. Sephiroth's story was satisfying enough on his own and his fall from grace already made perfect sense. He made his own conclusions and that was shown in the original game when Genesis didn't exist at all.An additive to a already established story (vaguely established at that) is not a retcon in the way people here imply negative affects the events of vii.
A negative retcon is what they did in last order with Sephiroth willingly jumping into the reactor vs Cloud literally tossing him in there originally. That literally contradicts what happens outright.
Everyone who knew Genesis on vii was dead or corrupted. They made it so it wouldn't conflict with anything in case people ask why wasn't he mentioned originally.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - Kellach Woods - 06-17-2015
Also, can we make literally anyone who isn't Cloud not be a complete chump storyline-wise if we're including expanded universe?
I'm looking at you, Barret "Welp seems like my gun arm stopped working again" Wallace and Cid "All I'm good for in this movie is springboarding Cloud" Highwind.
This was one of my problems with FFVII - I had the gall to love characters that weren't Cloud and outright hated Aeris. I make that mistake all the time when it comes to the PSX FFs, I know.
So I DO hope the side characters get more fleshed out, and I don't mean Vincent. Let him be his broody ass '90s kid in Dirge.
RE: FINAL FANTASY 7 REMAKE - cherrybomb - 06-17-2015
(06-17-2015, 07:19 AM)Aaron Wrote: An additive to a already established story (vaguely established at that) is not a retcon in the way people here imply negative affects the events of vii.
A negative retcon is what they did in last order with Sephiroth willingly jumping into the reactor vs Cloud literally tossing him in there originally. That literally contradicts what happens outright.
Everyone who knew Genesis on vii was dead or corrupted. They made it so it wouldn't conflict with anything in case people ask why wasn't he mentioned originally.
It might not be a negative retcon to you, but it is to a lot of people, because again, it's completely unnecessary and only serves to dilute the character's motivations and over-complicate things for no narrative benefit. Practicing Occam's Razor in storytelling is cool & good; that's why an unnecessary addition to a story can be just as bad as an outright negative one. Especially in a mythos as convoluted as your average Final Fantasy game.
now brb, gotta go cringe forever because of how many times i've typed "retcon" today