(08-05-2015, 01:24 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:

(08-05-2015, 01:12 AM)Kage Wrote:

(08-05-2015, 12:56 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: What Mr. Fox is, ostensibly, referring to is what the average Lalafell feels about the average Miqo'te,

Average lalafell are welcoming and share prosperous relations with the average Miqo'te and other average races. *nod*

Okay Kage.

(08-05-2015, 01:29 AM)Kage Wrote: I'm only conveying exactly what is shared in the racial lore
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/sp/world/races/lalafell/
Since this topic is talking about average relations,  people seem to be under the idea that the average Lalafell is part of the racist faction, which if they are they are not the norm.

(08-05-2015, 12:56 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I think that it's a bit disingenuous to characterize Biggs and Wedge, Hildebrand, or the Lalafells in the pugilist guild to be "average" Eorzeans.  In fact, including Hildebrand in any serious discussion is just plain silly.  That entire questline is meant to be light and silly and completely ridiculous.

What Mr. Fox is, ostensibly, referring to is what the average Lalafell feels about the average Miqo'te, what the average Hyur thinks about the average Elezen.  We're not average, and a lot of the people we interact directly with aren't average.  But there's a lot of stuff going on alongside us - mostly in NPC dialogue that we only see in passing - that suggests there's more going on than what we see directly in quests.

I do have to agree, however, that simply dismissing the story developer's words because you don't see it is a bit silly.  "Show, don't tell" or not, the man is the damn developer for the game.  Are you calling him a liar?  Are you suggesting that he's just deluded?  Or confused?  I mean...really?

(08-05-2015, 01:44 AM)Flickering Ember Wrote:

(08-05-2015, 12:56 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I think that it's a bit disingenuous to characterize Biggs and Wedge, Hildebrand, or the Lalafells in the pugilist guild to be "average" Eorzeans.  In fact, including Hildebrand in any serious discussion is just plain silly.  That entire questline is meant to be light and silly and completely ridiculous.

What Mr. Fox is, ostensibly, referring to is what the average Lalafell feels about the average Miqo'te, what the average Hyur thinks about the average Elezen.  We're not average, and a lot of the people we interact directly with aren't average.  But there's a lot of stuff going on alongside us - mostly in NPC dialogue that we only see in passing - that suggests there's more going on than what we see directly in quests.

I do have to agree, however, that simply dismissing the story developer's words because you don't see it is a bit silly.  "Show, don't tell" or not, the man is the damn developer for the game.  Are you calling him a liar?  Are you suggesting that he's just deluded?  Or confused?  I mean...really?

Well, it was just a few examples. I suppose I could scrounge up some more if you really want me to and if I'm not lazy about it.
Still though...
A lot of the quest NPCs can often be ordinary citizens or the vastly intermixed cities and towns. If the majority of the people I interact with don't offer reasonable indications to me as a reader that they are just "tolerating" each other then how am I going to know? By reading one of many SE posts on their forums, I guess. 

Me mentioning Hildibrand was a double meaning since his inclusion along with other things   really calls into question the grimdark reality I think is trying to be sold in this thread. Which yeah, bad stuff happens in Eorzea. It has to so we adventurers can come in and fix it. But the point of FFXIV's story isn't about how terrible the nature of humanity is; it's about grand adventures and the conquering of evil.

Quote:Anyway.

"Show, don't tell" or not, the man is the damn developer for the game.  Are you calling him a liar?  Are you suggesting that he's just deluded?  Or confused?  I mean...really?


Hm. I wouldn't say 'liar' or 'delusional'. I would just say 'incapable of writing a believable story/world that makes sense'.

(08-05-2015, 12:56 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I think that it's a bit disingenuous to characterize Biggs and Wedge, Hildebrand, or the Lalafells in the pugilist guild to be "average" Eorzeans.  In fact, including Hildebrand in any serious discussion is just plain silly.  That entire questline is meant to be light and silly and completely ridiculous.

What Mr. Fox is, ostensibly, referring to is what the average Lalafell feels about the average Miqo'te, what the average Hyur thinks about the average Elezen.  We're not average, and a lot of the people we interact directly with aren't average.  But there's a lot of stuff going on alongside us - mostly in NPC dialogue that we only see in passing - that suggests there's more going on than what we see directly in quests.

I do have to agree, however, that simply dismissing the story developer's words because you don't see it is a bit silly.  "Show, don't tell" or not, the man is the damn developer for the game.  Are you calling him a liar?  Are you suggesting that he's just deluded?  Or confused?  I mean...really?

(08-05-2015, 01:39 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:

(08-05-2015, 01:29 AM)Kage Wrote: I'm only conveying exactly what is shared in the racial lore
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/sp/world/races/lalafell/
Since this topic is talking about average relations,  people seem to be under the idea that the average Lalafell is part of the racist faction, which if they are they are not the norm.

But sure.  It doesn't exist.  Developer is obviously high on meth.

(08-03-2015, 08:28 AM)Kage Wrote:

(08-03-2015, 02:26 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:

(08-03-2015, 01:13 AM)Kage Wrote: In my view, there are notable racist tensions but it's not a tension where you would have many lynchings (barring the early 30?-50yrs ago Auri movement). Why was Sigurd left? What stopped? Is he the only? Does that mean it's less crucial? After that you have the Keeper/Duskwight issue in Gridania, notable for going against the pact in Twelveswood. You have Ala Mhigo who invaded Twelveswood... Ala Mhigans and those in the Twelveswood face discrimination on a different level because of being seen as a free-loader/bringing the forest's vengeance upon us. Au Ra seem to have the same free-loading thoughts as the Ala Mhigans? With extra dravanian-flavor in Ishgard.

And yet, the Mongrel is listened to by Elezen and Hyur in Ishgard. The mongrel still had clout. She still had voice. I have never really seen major "well you have some type of business /  trade / gil to offer me. I don't want no Lalafell in my establishment! You Lalafell go to ____ for service!"

This is a game that literally has refugee camps for certain types of people. There are story NPCs (aka Raubahn) who are famous for overcoming the racial issues in their cities. I think Sounsy posted a tidbit from 1.0 on how it was a big deal that the Gladiator's guild decided to allow highlanders to compete.

Miqo'te in Gridania are often seen as a bunch of forest cat poachers, hyur in Ishgard are treated as lowborn, and all over you see racism against the beast tribes.

Racial tensions are EXPLICITY built into the lore, and much of it is quite nasty. I'm not saying anyone has to play an unrepentant racist, but to act like they don't exist is rather silly. If you want to play an open minded character that doesn't worry about race, then that's fine, more power to you. Just be aware your character is an exception (likely a positive one) and not the norm.

Pray tell me where I denied that there is racism [in the game]. Also tell me what differences there are between what I have said and what you have said, and explore what these differences actually imply.

(08-05-2015, 09:14 AM)Graeham Wrote: I stand firmly behind the idea that if a developer states that something is a particular way then their word is as the law. 

Again, the 'grittiness' of the setting is what has drawn a lot of us to FFXIV. If people want to avoid some of the more controversial themes? Go ahead! Just please don't ignore what the developers state or make it seem like those of us who adhere strictly to the lore are somehow in the wrong for doing so.

Surely that isn't unreasonable and it's the best compromise?

(08-05-2015, 11:52 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Personally, I think one of the issues is that XIV, like several other Final Fantasy games, juxtaposes great beauty and magic with some very dark themes. Yes, there's the beautiful vistas of the Churning Mists and Mor Dhona, but there's also scheming villains and egregious abuses of people. As is often the case in FF, the world would be an amazing, beautiful place if not for the wickedness of Man. There's a lot of evil, but there's also a lot of good.

The tension between the brightest light and the deepest darkness in XIV is one of the characteristics I find most interesting about the setting, but the downside is that it's not always easy to reconcile all the sources of information we have. On one hand, we have races living together and Fernehalwes saying that Eorzeans are a fairly accepting bunch (a comment in the "CG Midlander" thread from long ago), and on the other hand we have examples of racism and nationalism in game and Fernehalwes also saying that there's a lot of racial tension. It's up to us, as RPers, to figure out how to put both of those together into an internally consistent world view. There's not one right or wrong way to do this, IMO.

(08-05-2015, 11:32 AM)Graeham Wrote: I think this is a matter of a misunderstanding because nobody is trying to force anybody to adhere to the developer's view of the setting or the way in which the setting has been established. If people wish to go off and do their own thing then that's fine - but it's their burden and they should at least admit that they're the ones taking liberties with the lore instead of implying that those of us who adhere to the setting as it's intended to be seen are somehow in the wrong for doing so.

On a side note, I may be mistaken but you've yet to complete the MSQ's for Heavensward, correct? I won't spoil anything specific but the tone and general atmosphere of the expansion is even darker than the 2.0 stuff. That, to me, suggests that it's what the developers intend - and their statements and various in-game sources support it.

I, for one, welcome the 'gritty' nature of the setting. It's what drew me into FFXIV in the first place - since I prefer my MMO's to be 'gritty' and involve intrigue, heroic struggles, discrimination and all the other trimmings. I've crafted my characters story around that sort of thing (which makes his role as a diplomat that much more interesting) and I'm seemingly the direct target audience given how much I've enjoyed Heavensward and the themes explored throughout the expansion.

That doesn't mean that I'm opposed to lighthearted stuff - and yes, there's plenty of that to be found in-game. It doesn't suddenly mean that there isn't horrific stuff going on all throughout Eorzea, though - especially when one examines the flavour text for quests, levequests, FATE's and so on; thus finding out just how bleak a place it can be.

So in short? No - nobody can 'enforce' other people to adhere to the developer's vision. Yet as a rough example: if George R.R Martin offers elaboration as to a particular character's motivation in Game of Thrones (and he's the guy who wrote it) then what he says trumps any fan interpretation to the contrary.

It's the same for FFXIV. If people want to interpret the setting differently to the creators then they're free to do so - but ultimately what the developers say is what's most important and it most definitely is supported by various in-game events and dialogue as shown through the many examples given throughout this very thread.

Though it does make for an interesting debate!

(08-05-2015, 09:14 AM)Graeham Wrote: I think people are getting confused because they're taking too much of the MSQ's at face value - when it's obvious that they're custom tailored to the perspective of the Warrior of Light who is the exception in almost every way rather than an example of the norm.

Yet most people aren't role-playing the Warrior of the Light, most are portraying the average Eorzean and that comes with the responsibility of acknowledging that if they play their character as being very open minded then their character is by no means an example of the norm.

Quote:For those of us playing adventurers (which isn't all, but seems to be the trend), it makes sense to have fairly "liberal" perspectives. Those of us playing characters (adventurers or otherwise) whose backgrounds include reasons to be less open-minded on certain subjects should certainly be capable of indulging in-character prejudices (with open OOC communication). I don't think anyone should expect or avoid certain attitudes with any adventurer they play. Go with what makes sense for your character's past and present.

We're a diverse group of people, in character and out, and we're far from average.