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+--- Thread: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism (/showthread.php?tid=12791)
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Lilia Lia - 08-05-2015
(08-05-2015, 03:56 PM)Nadine Marteau Wrote: Unless you're in the business of telling people what they should and should not be playing, I'm not sure why character's tending towards the open-minded is a bad thing.
One issue I've encountered is that I try to play a character with a pre-modern worldview as a way of blending her into the setting, but more often than not it causes her to stand out and even be perceived negatively by other RP characters.Â
It only really becomes a problem when characters start acting like I'm the one who's unusual for not having a 21st century liberal worldview. Characters will get very angry when I imply non-physiological differences between races, for example, and will sometimes accuse me of "racism." But I think "racism" as a sociological concept probably doesn't exist in Eorzea, especially owing to the fact that the "races" in the game are just different humanoid species rather than being different skin colours of the same species.Â
It also doesn't seem lore appropriate to me that characters would have such a worldview simply because they are "adventurers who travel a lot." Christopher Columbus didn't stop being racist when he discovered the Americas. Historically speaking, people who contributed to the more enlightened modern attitude towards physical race were intellectuals and scholars, both inside and outside the oppressed groups, rather than being "worldly people" per se. Most of this change in attitude took place in universities and places of higher education.Â
And the other items you listed - tradespeople/merchants, criminals/outcasts, specialized mercenaries - well, I just don't see the connection between their line of work and their general worldview. If anything, I would imagine such people probably have less formal education and are therefore less likely to have distinctive or sophisticated belief systems.
If you've never played the 3.0 LTW quests, the whole premise of it is a single merchant in Ishgard trying to take a stand against the haughty attitude of the tradespeople there towards the poor. Accordingly, tradespeople and merchants, at least in Ishgard, are used as a symbol of the status quo which is being challenged by one merchant who disagrees with it. This isn't the topic of race, of course, but it's along the same lines and it gives you an idea of how merchants who have liberal views are perhaps exceptional individuals rather than being commonplace.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Kage - 08-05-2015
http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=8695&pid=117271#pid117271
I'm not sure if the additional stream is up still but,
(10-18-2014, 08:12 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Added from additional stream!
[unspoilered]
Cross-racial?
-adventurers come from different land. From places slightly more “progressive.†Live together but separate. Hyur and elezen had wars. A lot of bad blood between races. Recently races to come together in single nations. Cross Racial is possible, but it doesn’t happen a lot. It’s a cultural thing. 3.0 there will be a cross-racial union.
No adventurers do not have to be more "progressive" but they're not all concerned with cross-racial ties or differences it seems. Just as others -are- very divided by their tensions, others are not.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/world/#!/races/content?lalafell
Quote:The Lalafell are a folk both rotund and diminutive. Small by any race's standards and possessed of a childlike countenance, it proves difficult for non-Lalafell to gauge an individual's age with any degree of accuracy. Originally an agricultural people inhabiting the fertile islands of the south seas, they found their way to Eorzea via the burgeoning trade routes. Lalafell are welcoming of outsiders, and share prosperous relations with all of the other races of Eorzea.
Some peoples, based on the information provided by Koji and the racial lore, have a general more open-minded and less racial-tension relations with the others. Adventurers and lalafells.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Kellach Woods - 08-05-2015
(08-05-2015, 04:35 PM)Kage Wrote: http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=8695&pid=117271#pid117271
I'm not sure if the additional stream is up still but,
(10-18-2014, 08:12 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Added from additional stream!
[unspoilered]
Cross-racial?
-adventurers come from different land. From places slightly more “progressive.†Live together but separate. Hyur and elezen had wars. A lot of bad blood between races. Recently races to come together in single nations. Cross Racial is possible, but it doesn’t happen a lot. It’s a cultural thing. 3.0 there will be a cross-racial union.
No adventurers do not have to be more "progressive" but they're not all concerned with cross-racial ties or differences it seems. Just as others -are- very divided by their tensions, others are not.
http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/pr/world/#!/races/content?lalafell
Quote:The Lalafell are a folk both rotund and diminutive. Small by any race's standards and possessed of a childlike countenance, it proves difficult for non-Lalafell to gauge an individual's age with any degree of accuracy. Originally an agricultural people inhabiting the fertile islands of the south seas, they found their way to Eorzea via the burgeoning trade routes. Lalafell are welcoming of outsiders, and share prosperous relations with all of the other races of Eorzea.
Some peoples, based on the information provided by Koji and the racial lore, have a general more open-minded and less racial-tension relations with the others. Adventurers and lalafells.
Again, make a claim, source your shit like Kage did.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Nadine Marteau - 08-05-2015
Lilia Lia
(08-05-2015, 04:13 PM)undefined Wrote:(08-05-2015, 03:56 PM)Nadine Marteau Wrote: Unless you're in the business of telling people what they should and should not be playing, I'm not sure why character's tending towards the open-minded is a bad thing.
It also doesn't seem lore appropriate to me that characters would have such a worldview simply because they are "adventurers who travel a lot." Christopher Columbus didn't stop being racist when he discovered the Americas. Historically speaking, people who contributed to the more enlightened modern attitude towards physical race were intellectuals and scholars, both inside and outside the oppressed groups, rather than being "worldly people" per se. Most of this change in attitude took place in universities and places of higher education.Â
And the other items you listed - tradespeople/merchants, criminals/outcasts, specialized mercenaries - well, I just don't see the connection between their line of work and their general worldview. If anything, I would imagine such people probably have less formal education and are therefore less likely to have distinctive or sophisticated belief systems.
You raise fair points, but again I feel that a person's right to play a character however they want (provided they respect the setting) is entirely uncompromisable. That said, I do agree that the existence of common views should be acknowledged as such. Though I cannot say without evidence, it sounds to me as if your experiences are with people who struggle with such.
Â
It is unfortunate that Lilia is perceived negatively for her beliefs. I've not seen such happen myself, but I can imagine that it does. Honestly, that may drive some people away from playing more conventional characters. It is a bit unreasonable to do that unless the characters in question are the sort to question the belief of every average person they come across. That said, some people play characters who just might. Some characters are pretty loud about their disdain for bigotry, as rebellious as that is. They may even go to far and become an actual problem in and of itself doing so. Our own world sees this often enough, in varying severity. From "activists" who stab and shadows and actively demonize disagreement to cultural revolutionaries who cross the line and become violent terrorists. That isn't to say that's necessarily what your character may have experienced, but it is food for thought.
 I agree that racism as a concept probably isn't something people are widely aware of. People still may question Lilia's beliefs with 'why'. It's not out of the realm of possibility. Some may do so loudly, maybe even angrily for their own reasons. It is going to become a point of contention, I believe, one way or the other. Just as a rebel should find pressure from the norms of the world at large, a traditonalist will find themselves challenged as well by a force of change. Dark themes cause conflict, which I would always welcome to any story. You'd be hard-pressed to have a very exciting or moving one without it. It would be pretty boring if EVERYONE obeyed the social rules of society, don't you think?
I sincerely hope you've not experienced any OOC stigma from your character's beliefs. I know that much may be a possibility, but if people are judging someone for their character's actions or words, they're probably not especially good roleplayers and wouldn't be someone I would mourn avoiding interaction with.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Lilia Lia - 08-05-2015
(08-05-2015, 04:52 PM)Nadine Marteau Wrote: It is unfortunate that Lilia is perceived negatively for her beliefs. I've not seen such happen myself, but I can imagine that it does. Honestly, that may drive some people away from playing more conventional characters. It is a bit unreasonable to do that unless the characters in question are the sort to question the belief of every average person they come across. That said, some people play characters who just might. Some characters are pretty loud about their disdain for bigotry, as rebellious as that is. They may even go to far and become an actual problem in and of itself doing so. Our own world sees this often enough, in varying severity. From "activists" who stab and shadows and actively demonize disagreement to cultural revolutionaries who cross the line and become violent terrorists. That isn't to say that's necessarily what your character may have experienced, but it is food for thought.
Just to clarify, it's a much different kind of "racism" with Lilia. As Kage pointed out, Lalafells have good relations with the other races, but that doesn't mean they're above having preconceptions or stereotypes that they believe. Lilia hasn't met many miqo'te, for instance, but the ones she has met have led her to believe there's a certain intellectual dullness and inherent carnality to them. Kind of a "noble savage" attitude. She's not unfriendly to them but she also tends to be pretty outspoken about "the way they are" and such things.
Like real racism often is, hers is more a matter of prejudice and stereotype than actual hostility or outright dislike. She might find it impressive that a miqo'te knows how to read, and compliment them on their exceptional intelligence, or something like that. It's still "good relations" but with a certain racial insensitivity that I think wouldn't be nearly as striking to people in Eorzea as it would be to people in the 21st century developed world of Planet Earth.
But I don't want to get sidetracked with talking about my character, I'm just trying to show you how mild the "racism" is that I play to give you an idea how disproportionate the backlash she receives is.
[Edit] I also want to clarify that the backlash I've received has been entirely IC. I didn't mean to imply otherwise.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Cato - 08-05-2015
Even if a character adheres to more 'modern' values then it's worth noting that they're not suddenly going to be immune to discrimination themselves or that it won't exist elsewhere in Eorzea. I think it'd be pretty cool if more people included it as a plot device since it'd allow more role-players to get involved in the grittier aspects of the story.
I also don't think we need to go through the whole song and dance of tiptoeing around whether or not people should or should not be doing something. Nobody is demanding that people do anything - it's a debate where people are putting forward ideas and food for thought.
As for Lilia's plight? I can relate to it quite a bit though from the opposite end of the spectrum - everybody seems perfectly find with the fact that Graeham has Garlean blood in his veins. It's a shame since I was hoping more people would discriminate and distrust him for it - but so far very few people have even treated it as a negative despite the fact that realistically many Eorzeans would at the very least be wary.
I can't help but feel as though many people shy away from any and all discrimination because of the backlash Lilia has brought up. I've encountered it myself in other MMO's - even when it made sense for races at war to loathe each other.
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Qhora Bajihri - 08-05-2015
(08-05-2015, 05:08 PM)Lilia Lia Wrote: But I don't want to get sidetracked with talking about my character, I'm just trying to show you how mild the "racism" is that I play to give you an idea how disproportionate the backlash she receives is.
That kind of blows my mind. Having a racial bias or prejudice based on a character's experiences and encounters with other characters (PCs or NPCs) seems completely justified, and especially if it's mild, why is there any backlash? Especially if it's out of character? It's difficult to predict how any given character will react within their world, and IC taking some offense at being greeted with a reaction the character doesn't agree with does seem legitimate, but we can and should have common OOC courtesies.
My character has significant prejudices regarding miqo'te, which she is, and has led her to some arguments, but she has very few extreme opinions regarding other races. Foreigners to her are just foreign, not inherently good or bad. That's because of the way she grew up, with internal family conflicts shaping her ideas about the way she wants to live. And as a travelling merchant's child, being constantly exposed to foreign strangers not as something to fear but as a useful and everpresent part of the environment.
If your character has met such-and-such and thus developed an impression that they expand to cover the "race" whenever a new member of said race is encountered, isn't that perfectly logical and even fun to play with? If your character has never even seen such a being, and is then either terrified or intensely curious, isn't that perfectly logical and even fun to play with?
Any time my previous character met a Garlean who admitted their Garlean-ness, as an escaped Ala Mhigan, he would have to start the discussion of when was the soonest they should appropriately be killed. My current character? Is definitely wary, because the totality of her experiences with Garlemald have been less than pleasant, but she knows Garleans buy things, and she isn't going to care about planning a murder.
I do feel like adventurers don't need to be held to any "average day-to-day life in Eorzea is just like this" statement or ideal. But I don't feel like there should be shunning or disapproval in either direction. Conflict is good. Curiosity is good. Why can't we all just get along? *dramatic*
RE: Avoiding contemporary liberalism in RP and embracing traditional conservatism - Lilia Lia - 08-05-2015
(08-05-2015, 05:41 PM)Qhora Bajihri Wrote: If your character has met such-and-such and thus developed an impression that they expand to cover the "race" whenever a new member of said race is encountered, isn't that perfectly logical and even fun to play with? If your character has never even seen such a being, and is then either terrified or intensely curious, isn't that perfectly logical and even fun to play with?
I would think so. A lot of people seem to think their characters would find this kind of thing "racist."
Again, we're not dealing with the difference between Asians and Europeans here. This is completely different species who are humanoid so an enlightened "hey, deep down they're just like us" attitude makes much less sense to me, especially when you're given reason to believe that it might not be the case.