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+--- Thread: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? (/showthread.php?tid=9094)
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kellach Woods - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 04:39 PM)Val Wrote: EDIT: Not to mention that, in Final Fantasy Tactics, Dragoons missed ALL THE TIME against quick targets. The slower the enemy, the higher your chance of success was. As someone stated earlier, they needed someone to distract them. Dragoons had the ability to do a quick hop which did little to no damage and was largely useless, or power up their strike but also take a loooooong time (you know, balance).Dude, in FFT the strongest creature in all the land is someone with a Ph.D in Math.
Speaking of that, when's Calculator job lol?
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Melkire - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 05:02 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:(12-04-2014, 04:39 PM)Val Wrote: EDIT: Not to mention that, in Final Fantasy Tactics, Dragoons missed ALL THE TIME against quick targets. The slower the enemy, the higher your chance of success was. As someone stated earlier, they needed someone to distract them. Dragoons had the ability to do a quick hop which did little to no damage and was largely useless, or power up their strike but also take a loooooong time (you know, balance).Dude, in FFT the strongest creature in all the land is someone with a Ph.D in Math.
Speaking of that, when's Calculator job lol?
Too strong. You'd pop all your off-GCDs only to kill the PCs farming that fate all the way over at the other end of the zone.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Zyrusticae - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 04:26 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: As I was typing my response I reasoned that was your hopeful response, and it would have been mean of me to deviate specifically to deny you the point you definitely earned there.Indeed.
Like all things in roleplay, it comes down to your personal philosophies. I like the contrast of playing the not-chosen ones in XIV similarly to how it can be fun to play a Heroic Mortal in Exatled and see how many sessions you survive (global top score is 1/2).
Doesn't mean everyone does, or has to. That's the nice thing about RP.
I personally prefer it when most participants in a story are competent on some level. The bumbling idiot, arrogant nincompoop, oblivious harem lead, etc. archetypes tend to leave me cold (at least partly due to overexposure) and I have a much, much easier time getting invested into events as they happen if people are acting at least somewhat logically.
That's not to say I can't have fun with characters whose existences are defined by their ability to bring forth comic relief - it just tends to be laid on too thickly for my tastes.
This means that I prefer to match strength against strength rather than characters having glaring weaknesses that are badly in need of patching up lest they be exploited to hell and back. Hence, on a pure power spectrum my characters and the major players they interact with are going to be on the upper, well-above-average end of the scale, and if combat is ever involved I expect there to be a decent, fun exchange rather than someone getting beat down as soon as they show the first sign of weakness (the latter is far more realistic, mind you, which is part of why realism is boring).
When it comes to FFXIV specifically the CG snippets inform a huge part of how I view the world and how capable the people within it can be, hence I basically throw realism out the window in favor of spectacle and fun. I do try to find a good balance but I'm not going to finger-wag someone for being flashy (though I will do so for things that are just blatantly out of line). Other folks have their own views on this and that's fine. It's just... probably better for all involved if we don't get too entangled with one another.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Val - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 04:56 PM)Gegenji Wrote:(12-04-2014, 04:39 PM)Val Wrote: I'm not dismissing it entirely. A Dragoon that gets the drop on someone will mess them up if they don't see it coming. It's a powerful strike that SHOULD be justly balanced, and that balance is that it's hard to hit if someone sees you coming. Why? Because you can dive/roll/run/whatever after the Dragoon commits. While they can maybe move in their descent slightly, they can't make up for the sporadic movements of their targets (which dragons can't do, mind you, and thus my previous point).
EDIT: Not to mention that, in Final Fantasy Tactics, Dragoons missed ALL THE TIME against quick targets. The slower the enemy, the higher your chance of success was. As someone stated earlier, they needed someone to distract them. Dragoons had the ability to do a quick hop which did little to no damage and was largely useless, or power up their strike but also take a loooooong time (you know, balance).
Again, I think this falls under the basic concessions made for any sort of RP fighting. Which is less a matter of the mechanics and how the jump works than an agreement between the participants on how the combat flows. The balance comes from the cooperative efforts of those involved, and how much the balance is tweaked either way is upon those participating.
Trying to place an overarching restriction is the same as putting an overarching restriction on any other RP element. "A spell MUST allow the opponent to interrupt it" or "Stealthed characters MUST be able to be detected" or even "Enraged Warriors must be uncontrollable and attack with impunity." It's all basically the same thing to me, thus making a Dragoon's jump no less of a unique situation than any other conflicting RP action.
The only differing thing is how the Jump actually works, which is ultimately unnecessary beyond the aforementioned need to explain things and fluff one's own head-canon.
Well, Val is a ninja and I don't have him stealth anywhere in the middle of the day because it makes absolutely no sense. The stealthing is a mechanic in game--unless we want to just cop out and say they cloud themselves in aether and it makes them completely invisible to their surroundings.Â
I agree with what you're saying, though. I understand it, and I don't take game mechanics into consideration when I RP at all. I tend to just go with the flow and try to balance it at the best of my abilities.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Val - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 05:02 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:(12-04-2014, 04:39 PM)Val Wrote: EDIT: Not to mention that, in Final Fantasy Tactics, Dragoons missed ALL THE TIME against quick targets. The slower the enemy, the higher your chance of success was. As someone stated earlier, they needed someone to distract them. Dragoons had the ability to do a quick hop which did little to no damage and was largely useless, or power up their strike but also take a loooooong time (you know, balance).Dude, in FFT the strongest creature in all the land is someone with a Ph.D in Math.
Speaking of that, when's Calculator job lol?
I'd totes make a Calculator <3
And I get what you're saying, I was just using it to show that strong strikes need balance. Also, in that trailer that everyone is using? The dragoons are there to, you know. Fight dragons.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kellach Woods - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 05:03 PM)Melkire Wrote: Too strong. You'd pop all your off-GCDs only to kill the PCs farming that fate all the way over at the other end of the zone.I'm just saying if we start extrapolating from other FF games (and in the case of warriors, other games entirely!) then we can come to some sort of incredibly stupid conclusions. (Also, Val the Calculator = MATH GENIUS, CAN'T WRITE FOR SHIT <3)
My personal opinion : They're in the game, let it rock, dodge/deflect if you must, treat it same as we do OOC - we don't know. Dragoon should know but if they're Ishgardian they're either sworn to secrecy or they themselves don't know.
Although... if Kell were to meet a dragoon he might actually want to learn that because of how strange the fact that nobody knows is.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Val - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 05:10 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:(12-04-2014, 05:03 PM)Melkire Wrote: Too strong. You'd pop all your off-GCDs only to kill the PCs farming that fate all the way over at the other end of the zone.I'm just saying if we start extrapolating from other FF games (and in the case of warriors, other games entirely!) then we can come to some sort of incredibly stupid conclusions. (Also, Val the Calculator = MATH GENIUS, CAN'T WRITE FOR SHIT <3)
Val can't count, either. The other day he was addressing two people and held up four fingers
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Faye - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 05:14 PM)Val Wrote:(12-04-2014, 05:10 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:(12-04-2014, 05:03 PM)Melkire Wrote: Too strong. You'd pop all your off-GCDs only to kill the PCs farming that fate all the way over at the other end of the zone.I'm just saying if we start extrapolating from other FF games (and in the case of warriors, other games entirely!) then we can come to some sort of incredibly stupid conclusions. (Also, Val the Calculator = MATH GENIUS, CAN'T WRITE FOR SHIT <3)
Val can't count, either. The other day he was addressing two people and held up four fingers
*pats Val* Shhh, you don't need to write or count. Just give that dashing grin and say some charming, asshole-ish thing and all is well. <3
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Faye - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 04:39 PM)TheShii Wrote:(12-04-2014, 08:41 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:(12-04-2014, 04:53 AM)TheShii Wrote: a million undercover garleans? hell if I had even gotten a chance to find another garlean rp'er i'd of been lucky lol
either way, I never saw word of dragoons being special snowflakes *shrugs* so can't help ya there.
*cough*
I'm aware of them, I have already spoken to those in the group when I first transferred into balmung and with a brief response, but nothing in game (even when reaching out), so my statement still stands lol
I may have very well just caught them at a busy time or times didn't match up or maybe even some of my messages just never reached them, but outside of seeing their stuff in the forums... going in the game itself I didn't catch so much as a whisper of other garlean rp'ers and that's what I'm basing my original comment on primarily. lol
of course i'll also be the first to admit that just because I didn't see/hear it, didn't mean it wasn't there. Just nothing I witnessed. only emphasizing that if it was as common as it was suggested, yanoo haha
There are indeed a ton of undercover Garleans out there (you just don't see them because they're undercover *cough*cough*). Then again, there was a group of them who would just discuss Garlean-y things in the middle of taverns. Probably not the best way to approach that.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aldotsk - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 05:28 PM)Faye Wrote:(12-04-2014, 04:39 PM)TheShii Wrote:(12-04-2014, 08:41 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:(12-04-2014, 04:53 AM)TheShii Wrote: a million undercover garleans? hell if I had even gotten a chance to find another garlean rp'er i'd of been lucky lol
either way, I never saw word of dragoons being special snowflakes *shrugs* so can't help ya there.
*cough*
I'm aware of them, I have already spoken to those in the group when I first transferred into balmung and with a brief response, but nothing in game (even when reaching out), so my statement still stands lol
I may have very well just caught them at a busy time or times didn't match up or maybe even some of my messages just never reached them, but outside of seeing their stuff in the forums... going in the game itself I didn't catch so much as a whisper of other garlean rp'ers and that's what I'm basing my original comment on primarily. lol
of course i'll also be the first to admit that just because I didn't see/hear it, didn't mean it wasn't there. Just nothing I witnessed. only emphasizing that if it was as common as it was suggested, yanoo haha
There are indeed a ton of undercover Garleans out there (you just don't see them because they're undercover *cough*cough*). Then again, there was a group of them who would just discuss Garlean-y things in the middle of taverns. Probably not the best way to approach that.
I personally blame everyone for wanting to play as Sultansworns instead of Brass Blades, especially when there is no Brass Blades in Quicksand.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Inessa Hara - 12-04-2014
Guess it's time to end this 'war' with a theory that I could best create in my mind of how Dragoon's jump and how this translates over to combat using world lore.
Firstly, I think there is one common concept that everyone is not seeing about Dragoon's and how they jump. They manipulate and charge their leg's with Aether, allowing them to burst forward at an immense speed. The challenge afterword's is the decent, which I would assume they would charge their leg's with Aether to soak the impact of the fall back to the ground.
The first image shows how they would jump. The initial burst from the ground would send them flying through the sky due to their Aether charge leg's, allowing them to quickly fly up and stab any Dragon's flying way out of their lance's reach and for the fall back down, they would again charge their leg's but the charge would 'superman' their leg's, completely nulling and absorbing the impact of the fall.
Of course, in more demanding situations for Dragoons where their foes are extremely mobile of fleet of foot and can evade their thrusts, they would require advanced acrobatic training. Using my theory of the Aether charged Dragoon leg jump thingy, if they were fighting in some sort of indoor installation or a small, closed and confined quarters, an expert Dragoon would keep their leg's charged the entire time, allowing them to ricochet off of surfaces granted them increased speed and more deadly thrust power.
In the event they screw up their jump and they end up free falling or they mess up while trying to ricochet off of surfaces and end up tumbling, they would need the advanced acrobatic training to help them recover from a otherwise lethal screw up.
In other word's, to be a Dragoon, you would need a good deal of Aether control to charge you're legs, the ability to move and perform acrobatics while in chainmail or plater armor.  (the soul stone probably helps them with this as well as the Aether charging.) And a great amount of skill with a lance as often some of their acrobatic or airborn techniques would require them to have a great understanding of polearm's to an extent.
With that said, in the upcoming upd8 Dragoon's are going to get a speed buff to help keep them on par with Ninja's. This in turn creates a new theory of more application's. Charging you're leg's with Aether to increase running agility while on the ground.
They could probably also be really good at Tae Kwon Do if they had some kicking techniques as an Aether charged axe kick from a skilled Dragoon would probably decapitate someone, lol.
Anyways, there is my theory. Hope you guy's enjoy picking at it, lol.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Yssen - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 11:03 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: I see you just want to nitpick some things without reading the last two times I answered these EXACT nitpicks. That's cool.
A dragoon's jump cannot be fast because, while you keep banging on about "suspension of disbelief," gravity is a fundamental force. Jumping up in the air really fast doesn't make you fall any faster. In order to reach the speeds implied by the job ability itself, you'd need to be freefalling (or gliding via the spikes/fin concept) at speeds that would still be impractical. I get it, blah blah blah magic. Stop going on about black mages and their fireballs because aether as a resource is already explained. We know how mages shoot fireballs. We know how white mages channel succor. We know how monks move really fast (there's a whooole world of chakra stuff the story only begins to discuss). We do not know how dragoons suddenly gain the ability to defy all present game physics and concepts because they kill dragons.
I don't even know what to make of Midlander in the trailer, to be quite honest. Given Ishgard's stance on how important their dragoons are and how difficult/impossible it is for outsiders to attain that title, does that mean Midlander is THE Azure Dragoon? Well, no, because the NPC dialogue says the Holy See doesn't recognize this generation as having one currently. Will that change come 3.0? Maybe.
Also, your smoking gun about three dragoons in AF and wielding Gae Bolgs doesn't really seem relevant here. We've known for a year or more now that those aren't super rare. That still doesn't mean all people recognized with the "dragoon" title use spears.
Firstly, correcting where you are incorrect about the current lore surrounding Dragoons is not nitpicking. You are of course, completely entitled to ignore what has been put out there if you like. The "smoking gun" of there being multiple DRG in AF that serve Ishgard is just that. Dragoons are an entire section of Ishgard's military. Right up there with Knights and Templars. They have their own unique marker to indicate a division a single division of them. Several of these markers are on the battle maps in Coerthas, and you can find the description of what those markers mean under their housing item description. Dragoons are not simply individuals who prove they have killed a dragon, they are a specially trained section of the Ishgardian military lead by the Azure Dragoon.
Secondly, my point is not explain it. It does not require an explanation. My point is suspend your disbelief. The points you raise make it just as fair to say that MNKs cannot Shoulder Tackle, BLMs cannot Aetherial Manipulate, NINs can't Shukuchi or Assassinate, or any similar sort of move. Nothing explains out right explains the metaphysics of those abilities. We only have the assumption of Chakra in the case of MNK, which is a pretty good assumption, but an assumption none the less. If you cannot do the same thing you do to suspend for other Jobs "reality breaking" techniques for any reason, then Aya's earlier point is correct. You have placed a stigma on DRGs that you do not apply to other classes and jobs. Which is fine, so long as you realize that doing so is not what one would call fair, and that the same standard can be applied to you by someone else about something else. It is fine if you are cool with that, but are think about how you would respond to that standard being applied to your character in RP. So we don't know how. Big deal. The point is they can, and we have to deal with that.
Thirdly. Do not try to apply real world physics and combat technique in a fantasy setting unless you are willing for us all to start taking points of Paradox whenever we do things considered "unnatural" by consensual reality. ;pÂ
Lastly. The midlander is Derplander. Former warrior guy in 2.0 and archer dude from 1.0. At least he found that Bravura he left at Cartenau.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Val - 12-04-2014
Idunno. There's a stigma behind it, but at the same time there isn't. Someone posted that the Dragoon could keep their aether charged in their legs the entire time. That's acceptable, but then it would also require them to keep that aether concentrated in one particular spot in their body for a lengthy period of time. Aether manipulation is not as easy as moving an arm or a leg, something you do naturally and without thought. It's something that takes time and effort, and you'd have to hold that same amount of effort for the entire battle--something that likely wouldn't happen if you're also trying to dodge things and not get hit and all that stuff. In short, I think only a master could do that, and I can't conceivably accept that any character in their 20s and 30s could consider themselves a master at anything.
Real world physics, as people have stated earlier, are a thing. They are our starting point to find some logical way to do things. Game mechanics have nothing to do with RP. I refuse to believe that dragoon jumps can be instant. If that's the case, I guess Val can just Shukuchi around all over the place and never get tired and never have to worry about getting hit by said dragoon jumps. There are limits placed on things for a reason, and every attack has to have its balance. That's the driving force behind RP combat. A strong strike will either take a long time to use, take a LOT of energy out of the person, or will be hard to hit something. Obviously, physics come into account there as well. The larger the creature, the easier it will be to hit things.
Dragoons ARE a major portion of Ishgard's military. Why? To fight dragons. I still reiterate that their skills would not work nearly as well against smaller, more agile targets.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Berrod Armstrong - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 04:52 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:Agreed!(12-04-2014, 03:52 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote:Snap, you got me!(12-04-2014, 03:46 PM)Kage Wrote: But you're like in blue space then. :cNo not that one...*cough*
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aya - 12-04-2014
I'll just be glad there's no stigma against barmaids and dancers! Â
