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+--- Thread: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? (/showthread.php?tid=9094)
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Yssen - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 06:18 PM)Val Wrote: Dragoons ARE a major portion of Ishgard's military. Why? To fight dragons. I still reiterate that their skills would not work nearly as well against smaller, more agile targets.
Aevis are not much bigger than men, and make up the bulk of the Dravian Horde. Dragon Flies and Puk looking things also make up a bit larger part of it, both are smaller than men. It works on smaller targets just fine. And yeah, it is instant or really fast.
Also, I would not be so quick to ignore the mechanics of the game, and accept real world physics. The balance you want is all there. Jump is a powerful attack that requires effort, thus it is on a 40 second cool down. It cannot be used over and over. The same with other abilities, spells, and such. Both real world physics and game mechanics work hand in hand to define and help us understand the "rules" of the game world.
This is all neither here nor there. You are still arguing that DRGs deserve a stigma when others do not. This is unfair, and that is my point. You would not want a stigma applied to you, why then apply it to others. We could go round and round arguing example and evidence all day long, but in the end you are still seeking to justify punishing someone for their choice of RP job. Difference of opinion is absolutely fine, but I have to take issue with someone applying that difference of opinion to tip the scales in a what amounts to a creative process. To argue that someone should be limited beneath what is acceptable for other choices they could make. In specific, I am seeing people try and justify everyone being able to completely ignore what makes a Dragoon a Dragoon. I am sorry if this sounds super harsh (I do not mean it to), but that is wrong and unfair. It is stifling. There is no "there is or is not a stigma" or "this stigma is justified" to it. Simply do not apply the stigma at all. Keep and accepting and open mind about it all and do not deal in absolutes. Yar.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Warren Castille - 12-04-2014
You're embodying the stigma by telling everyone there's nothing at all wrong with dragoons having an impossibly-accurate blindingly-fast attack that pierces dragon hide available for free all the time, then telling us all why we're wrong when we attempt to discuss it.
"Dragoon having an instantly-fatal never miss attack is fine and you are wrong for disagreeing because you're biased against dragoons."
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Gegenji - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 08:02 PM)Yssen Wrote: You are still arguing that DRGs deserve a stigma when others do not.
Pretty sure I'm not, and I really don't think others are either. They're just trying to figure out how Jump works from a lore-appropriate RP standpoint, and how some Dragoon players often Mary Sue. Mary Sues, however, can exist in any of the classes. For me personally, I'm saying a Dragoon's jump should be treated as any other violent action in an RP situation and treated as such. Don't say you instantly hit, don't flip out if someone describes trying to dodge it, and don't treat it as a be-all end-all attack.
I will argue one other point with you, though. In RP terms, I find it hard for a Jump to be "instant." Yes, it's that way in game for a mechanical standpoint and keep the DRG player involved. It'd be boring to hit the Jump button, then have to wait the prerequisite time it would take to do the jump, so concessions are made in-game. It taking at least some time has been established in all older Final Fantasies that have Dragoons - FF4, FF5, and FFT being the most notable - and I would figure that applying a similar approach to the RP usage of it would be courteous, if nothing else. Mostly to allow for your opponent to have a chance to react and have a hand in the joint storytelling of the combat.
Ignoring that and making it instant strays into "You're already dead" territory that I feel detracts from the RP experience.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Yssen - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 08:05 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: You're embodying the stigma by telling everyone there's nothing at all wrong with dragoons having an impossibly-accurate blindingly-fast attack that pierces dragon hide available for free all the time, then telling us all why we're wrong when we attempt to discuss it.Â
"Dragoon having an instantly-fatal never miss attack is fine and you are wrong for disagreeing because you're biased against dragoons."
No. I am arguing that there should be no stigma applied to anyone for any reason. That everyone should treat others as they themselves would wish to be treated. You would not like there to be a stigma applied to you, do not apply it to others. There is a difference. You are putting words in my mouth based on assumption and the same stigma you are seeking to justify. You are seeking to justify the stigma by saying I embody it. That is not appreciated. Again. I do not mean to sound harsh at all, and I apologize if the above statement stings. I simply call what I see as calmly as possible.
To summarize. Stigmas are bad and sting. Do not use them or apply them. Yar.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Boo the Hamster - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 04:07 PM)Melkire Wrote:Since this is brought up, I feel I should 'jump' into this conversation. There's always a rule to combat RP I felt is necessary, and that is 'Use the tools you have when they make sense.' Whether that's abilities stated in the game or otherwise is up to the player and what they are meant to do.(12-04-2014, 04:02 PM)Cedric Wrote: I'd like to just add on, if it hasn't been already, that there is more to a Dragoon than just "Jump." Sure it's their signature move (along with other Jump-like abilities like Dragonfire Dive) but what about the other things they can do with the lance?
Though I suppose that's what the lancer class is for...
The same IC dragoon I mentioned earlier later threw his spear through another dragon's throat in an IC invocation of Piercing Talon. No one present for that had any problems with that person exhibiting enough strength and skill to pierce dragon hide/scales with a thrown lance.
In fact, I get the feeling that any and all people who are questioning a dragoon's capabilities in this thread would totally be chill with most if not all of what a dragoon is supposed to be capable of being used ICly. Willing suspension of disbelief, you know. It's a thing.
Jump in particular is something I was at odds with. I honestly can't say whether it is 'okay' to use it against regular targets. It's just, why do that against a skilled fighter when you could just keep them at a far distance with the lance-tip? The only practical thing I can see is possibly combining Elusive Jump into a strike, or doing something along those lines.
Although to say that 'Jump should always hit, no matter what' is hyperbole, while 'Jump should always miss against smaller targets' isn't entirely accurate. Using it is fine, but it needs to make sense on /why/ it would hit, and unfortunately, that's up to the opponent (or the dice) whether that hits or not. It is never the user's decision for the most part.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Val - 12-04-2014
(12-04-2014, 08:44 PM)Boo the Hamster Wrote: Since this is brought up, I feel I should 'jump' into this conversation. There's always a rule to combat RP I felt is necessary, and that is 'Use the tools you have when they make sense.' Whether that's abilities stated in the game or otherwise is up to the player and what they are meant to do.
Jump in particular is something I was at odds with. I honestly can't say whether it is 'okay' to use it against regular targets. It's just, why do that against a skilled fighter when you could just keep them at a far distance with the lance-tip? The only practical thing I can see is possibly combining Elusive Jump into a strike, or doing something along those lines.
Although to say that 'Jump should always hit, no matter what' is hyperbole, while 'Jump should always miss against smaller targets' isn't entirely accurate. Using it is fine, but it needs to make sense on /why/ it would hit, and unfortunately, that's up to the opponent (or the dice) whether that hits or not. It is never the user's decision for the most part.
Pretty much all of this. As I said, I'm fine with Dragoons using it. That's never been questioned. There is, however, a time and a place, and just blindly jumping at things isn't going to necessarily work in their favor. Can they jump off from something and drop down on unsuspecting, smaller foe? Yeah, sure. Better yet, they could be intelligent and get the enemy to look toward a source of light (the sun or something) and leap into the air to momentarily blind them. There's ways to go about it. Jumping for the sake of being able to do so isn't one of them--not if you're hoping to actually down an enemy.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - TheShii - 12-05-2014
We need barmaid and dancer stigma's now *nods sagely* xD
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - TheShii - 12-05-2014
(12-04-2014, 05:28 PM)Faye Wrote:(12-04-2014, 04:39 PM)TheShii Wrote:(12-04-2014, 08:41 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:(12-04-2014, 04:53 AM)TheShii Wrote: a million undercover garleans? hell if I had even gotten a chance to find another garlean rp'er i'd of been lucky lol
either way, I never saw word of dragoons being special snowflakes *shrugs* so can't help ya there.
*cough*
I'm aware of them, I have already spoken to those in the group when I first transferred into balmung and with a brief response, but nothing in game (even when reaching out), so my statement still stands lol
I may have very well just caught them at a busy time or times didn't match up or maybe even some of my messages just never reached them, but outside of seeing their stuff in the forums... going in the game itself I didn't catch so much as a whisper of other garlean rp'ers and that's what I'm basing my original comment on primarily. lol
of course i'll also be the first to admit that just because I didn't see/hear it, didn't mean it wasn't there. Just nothing I witnessed. only emphasizing that if it was as common as it was suggested, yanoo haha
There are indeed a ton of undercover Garleans out there (you just don't see them because they're undercover *cough*cough*). Then again, there was a group of them who would just discuss Garlean-y things in the middle of taverns. Probably not the best way to approach that.
well when I was referencing finding other garleans, I wasn't meaning icly specifically lol that would just be silly
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Faye - 12-05-2014
(12-05-2014, 12:32 AM)TheShii Wrote:(12-04-2014, 05:28 PM)Faye Wrote:(12-04-2014, 04:39 PM)TheShii Wrote:(12-04-2014, 08:41 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:(12-04-2014, 04:53 AM)TheShii Wrote: a million undercover garleans? hell if I had even gotten a chance to find another garlean rp'er i'd of been lucky lol
either way, I never saw word of dragoons being special snowflakes *shrugs* so can't help ya there.
*cough*
I'm aware of them, I have already spoken to those in the group when I first transferred into balmung and with a brief response, but nothing in game (even when reaching out), so my statement still stands lol
I may have very well just caught them at a busy time or times didn't match up or maybe even some of my messages just never reached them, but outside of seeing their stuff in the forums... going in the game itself I didn't catch so much as a whisper of other garlean rp'ers and that's what I'm basing my original comment on primarily. lol
of course i'll also be the first to admit that just because I didn't see/hear it, didn't mean it wasn't there. Just nothing I witnessed. only emphasizing that if it was as common as it was suggested, yanoo haha
There are indeed a ton of undercover Garleans out there (you just don't see them because they're undercover *cough*cough*). Then again, there was a group of them who would just discuss Garlean-y things in the middle of taverns. Probably not the best way to approach that.
well when I was referencing finding other garleans, I wasn't meaning icly specifically lol that would just be silly
Of course, it was a (failed) joke!
But there are those who don't like to advertise it even OOC for fear of metagaming.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aya - 12-05-2014
(12-05-2014, 12:31 AM)TheShii Wrote: We need barmaid and dancer stigma's now *nods sagely* xDNooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - TheShii - 12-05-2014
(12-05-2014, 12:34 AM)Faye Wrote:(12-05-2014, 12:32 AM)TheShii Wrote:(12-04-2014, 05:28 PM)Faye Wrote:(12-04-2014, 04:39 PM)TheShii Wrote:(12-04-2014, 08:41 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: *cough*
I'm aware of them, I have already spoken to those in the group when I first transferred into balmung and with a brief response, but nothing in game (even when reaching out), so my statement still stands lol
I may have very well just caught them at a busy time or times didn't match up or maybe even some of my messages just never reached them, but outside of seeing their stuff in the forums... going in the game itself I didn't catch so much as a whisper of other garlean rp'ers and that's what I'm basing my original comment on primarily. lol
of course i'll also be the first to admit that just because I didn't see/hear it, didn't mean it wasn't there. Just nothing I witnessed. only emphasizing that if it was as common as it was suggested, yanoo haha
There are indeed a ton of undercover Garleans out there (you just don't see them because they're undercover *cough*cough*). Then again, there was a group of them who would just discuss Garlean-y things in the middle of taverns. Probably not the best way to approach that.
well when I was referencing finding other garleans, I wasn't meaning icly specifically lol that would just be silly
Of course, it was a (failed) joke!
ya unfortunately that's an unchanging issue no matter what community one slips into :c
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Inessa Hara - 12-05-2014
Hrm. . . I dont see a problem discussing RP events and thing's that happen OOCly with others. The problem though is when people use it to metagame with it, but even then seasoned RPers tend to not make the metagame mistake unless it's just an elaborate trolling joke.
As for Garlean RPers, it really depends on what side of the fence you are in. If you are pro-Garlean Empire and support the conquest of Eorzea then the Garlemald FC would be a good group to aim for. If you are actually a Garlean who has fled from the Garlean land to escape the tyranny of the empire then generally you will find that the RP groups for Anti-Garlemald Garleans is generally scattered and unceteralized.
Another reason they could not be responding could be a number of things, such as chat box flooding, ambient noise blocking out the ping message, being AFK, etc. Keep at it though. Someone will respond eventually.    Â
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Artigan - 12-05-2014
Size queens bitching their "poles" aren't "long" enough.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Oli! - 12-05-2014
(12-04-2014, 12:50 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: The problem with these sorts of skills is that they can't be put back once they've been drawn, you know? Once you reveal your character can instantly put holes in someone from fifty feet away, you'd sort of expect that to become the mainline maneuver, right?
...Until you skewer them with a giant ice spike placed directly where you were standing a few seconds ago.
TEAM BLACK MAGE WINS AGAIN
YOU CANNOT STOP US
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kellach Woods - 12-05-2014
Well, OBVIOUSLY because they didn't give WAR a gap closer.