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+---- Thread: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Rules for Event 2 in first post) (/showthread.php?tid=7548)
RE: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Sign up here))(Under Construction)) - Unnamed Mercenary - 07-14-2014
Gaspard brings up a lot of good points. To add to it, I think we need to take a step back here to consider some different levels of character guilt/ethics/morality.Â
First, we have the "collared" characters:
Collared - Not Involved
Collared - Did Not Want to be Involved
Collared - Did Not Want to be Involved, but will follow orders
Collared - Will Follow Orders, including killing
Collared - Will Follow Orders, including killing, and aware of the poisoning beforehand
Next, we have the "hired"/"ordered" characters:
Ordered to be a distraction
Hired for Gil - Simply a distraction
Ordered to be a distraction, including killing
Hired for Gil - Simply a distraction, including killing
Ordered to be a distraction, including killing, and aware of the poisoning beforehand
Hired for Gil - Simple a distraction, including killing, and aware of the poisoning beforehand
Naturally, there are probably additional roles not mentioned here, which fall outside the category of "bad guys", but I believe this is where most of the discussion has been pointed (outside of which places were poisoned). I don't think a black/white guilty/not guilty standpoint can really be achieved with the setup.Â
Excluding character motivations, there are simply too many ways a person may have been drafted onto the "villains" side in this first arc to really be "guilty" of a crime they may not have even known was committed before it was possible to do something about.
Among other things, I don't think any of the "villains" would have been noticeable in a crowd, save for the ones that openly showed their faces. (Only Osric comes to mind at this point). Since I'm unsure how the other battles went, but I know that the encounter I was in, nobody on opposing sides even recognized the other side's characters. (Merc and Nat found out each other's identities rather quickly, but that would be expected. Mavhashi and Hornet I don't think recognized Nat, and would have seen Merc with/without a mask before. Kage was of course able to figure things out, which has had some RP in game/on forums to deal with the immediate effects.)
Lastly, we have the character ethics/morality, which I think can make all the difference. There are (or were) truly neutral characters like Merc who knew nothing of what was planned, how it would be done, or what could happen. I know at least in Merc's case, he didn't find out about the poisoning until Kage came pounding on his door for a "talk". I'm sure something similar has happened for other villain characters who were only intended to be a distraction, and were not there to kill/mortally wound people. Even for people who may have been prepared to die in battle/kill their opposing side, we wouldn't know if the planned death by poisoning would have been "ok" with those characters. If we look at the "compromised" characters, I believe we'd need to know more about their motivations and /why/ they've joined the villains before an OOC judgement could be passed, let alone some form of judgement ICly. At this point, the only character that is bad, intended to be bad, and has no regrets that I can think of, would be Jin'li, who will have judgement passed during this event.
---
I think it might be going a little too far into a white/black point of view to immediately condemn all of the villains. Granted, if Merc's identity is found out and he is associated with the incident, there will need to be consequences. But as he would stand, he probably isn't seen ICly as anything but "that guy who's started fights in the Quicksand" and "that man with the mask who kept tormenting Kage". From an IC perspective, there was no intention for mass murder, let alone death. He was simply paid to be a distraction, which kept Hornet, Mahvashi and eventually Kage too busy to look for Jin'li. For the other villains, I don't know. It will have to be RPed out if their identities are exposed, and how the Ul'dahn government will deal with that. (With a sizable chunk of the RP Law Enforcement community part of this, I can't imagine a mass-hanging or death sentence being a viable solution).
TLDR version: I don't think we can judge all of the "villain" characters as being equally guilty. There are too many factors, such as if their identities were hidden, if they were being forced to commit atrocious acts under the pretense of blackmail/death, or if they even knew what they were being used to buy time for. It seems extreme to immediately cut all of them off ICly, with only OOC knowledge of their involvement, which may be an incomplete story at this time.
RE: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Sign up here))(Under Construction)) - Gaspard - 07-15-2014
The problem in seperating the guilt of so many people that played on the 'Villain' side, as you put it, is that we're back into assuming how Ul'dah would react. Something we have no feasable way of knowing. They might only try to find the heads behind the operation, or they may want everyone involved in any fashion hanged, akin to a witch-hunt. Guilty by Association, and/or standing on the wrong side.
In the end, it's not as much about deducting the degree of guilt in each character, but rather, what the Ul'dahn society will settle on as viable punishment, and given that Ul'dah follows a rather medieval system of governing, it's not improbable that it'd be rather a witch-hunt then fair, individual set of trials to deduct someones guilt or innocence.
I think that in general people should distance themselves from thinking of this in terms of 'fairness' and or 'Character A is more guilty then Character B'. It's more likely(or plausible), that they'll trial everyone involved as guilty of treason against the Crown and the Citizens of Ul'dah, which will translate into hanging for all of them. There will be too much pressure form the Citizens themselves for a verdict that will please them, rather then be just,as many people will have dead relatives, friends and spouses by that point.
RE: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Sign up here))(Under Construction)) - Austurmax Laforet - 07-15-2014
To this I would add a point. Society quite often lets off people the public wants to see burn if due process finds them not guilty of wrongdoing. Example, OJ Simpson. Albeit they may have to live with the possibility of being shunned or someone looking to take justice into their own hands, but it is a thing that does happen.
Additionally, I would add that in most cases while coercion is not enough to actually get one off the hook for committing a crime, it usually does entail a lighter sentence. But besides that, there are some among the collared, like Kiht, that have committed literally no crime, even under coercion. And that should to be taken into account.
Just my 2 cents on the issue.
RE: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Sign up here))(Under Construction)) - Kage - 07-15-2014
I just want to be clear though, even without knowing anything, they [the hired hands who actually attacked the city] are not innocent by any means [unless Ul'dahn authorities are aware]. People will see the fact that they are guilty in some way and with the scope of how badly the city was hit, they want blood.
RE: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Sign up here))(Under Construction)) - Gaspard - 07-15-2014
OJ Simpson is an example out of a democratic/republican society of modern times, Ul'dah is more akin to a Medieval Oligarchy/Monarchy, governed through the laws of a Kingdom, not lawyers. Still, if you took a real-life example, you'd have to take an example like Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein. Both where hanged/killed without a trial. This would be similar to it, as you have a Terrorist group injuring an entire City, not just a singular person.
RE: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Sign up here))(Under Construction)) - McBeefâ„¢ - 07-15-2014
This is like deciding what kind of crime you're going to convict the various levels of nazi leaders of while their tanks are rolling into france. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.
RE: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Sign up here))(Under Construction)) - Aya - 07-15-2014
(07-15-2014, 12:26 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: This is like deciding what kind of crime you're going to convict the various levels of nazi leaders of while their tanks are rolling into france. Let's not get ahead of ourselves.Very true Nat!
I wanted to raise my concern about consequences before the mass murder became set in stone so that there was still time for Askier et al. to consider just how they want the event to conclude, and how they want the plot to proceed. It looks like I am the only one seriously considering changing my involvement or character RP over it, and that's perfectly fair, if people want to be involved with it and to continue down that path, by all means, its a game intended to fun! I don't know what I expected to accomplish, except just to raise my hand and draw attention to something that seemed really important, and kind of overlooked to me. It just seemed like the consequences were not fully thought through when this was planned (my suspicion being because it was not supposed to succeed). But its gotten me into all sorts of trouble! \o/
Gaspard really expanded on what I was trying to say. Plausibility in RP is important, even to me (and my trivial, casual, barmaid RP!) Aya's not going to swing around serving ale to mass murderers, I really didn't mean to offend anyone! I didn't think it would be that controversial to say. I may have been too broad (and too tongue-in-cheek with what I was saying), but I hope that I have been clear enough that I have no ill-intent, nor ill-opinion of any player involved in any way, with any of this. I keep saying it, but I mean it when I say you guys are terrific, and I'm glad that we've been able to have this discussion without too much in the way of fireworks
 This community is truly terrific, and I am glad I am here.I certainly have not meant to draw targets on any specific characters, or to try to say that people should condemn their characters to death. What everyone should do is consider how they will deal with the consequences of what is happening, and if they actually want to deal with those consequences in-character. If the answer to the later is yes, you should have a plan for the former, and you might want to consider how the rest of the IC world will react to it. I've outlined my general thoughts on the matter, and I suspect that I am not alone in that. I just don't want anyone to feel blind sided by the result of their RP.
RE: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Sign up here))(Under Construction)) - TheLastCandle - 07-15-2014
(07-15-2014, 12:08 AM)Gaspard Wrote: The problem in seperating the guilt of so many people that played on the 'Villain' side, as you put it, is that we're back into assuming how Ul'dah would react. Something we have no feasable way of knowing. They might only try to find the heads behind the operation, or they may want everyone involved in any fashion hanged, akin to a witch-hunt. Guilty by Association, and/or standing on the wrong side.
In the end, it's not as much about deducting the degree of guilt in each character, but rather, what the Ul'dahn society will settle on as viable punishment, and given that Ul'dah follows a rather medieval system of governing, it's not improbable that it'd be rather a witch-hunt then fair, individual set of trials to deduct someones guilt or innocence.
I think that in general people should distance themselves from thinking of this in terms of 'fairness' and or 'Character A is more guilty then Character B'. It's more likely(or plausible), that they'll trial everyone involved as guilty of treason against the Crown and the Citizens of Ul'dah, which will translate into hanging for all of them. There will be too much pressure form the Citizens themselves for a verdict that will please them, rather then be just,as many people will have dead relatives, friends and spouses by that point.
That's all well and good, but this is a cooperative game. Some people are, rather understandably, attached to playing their characters. So going around drawing lines in the sand saying "this is how it should be, and if you don't conform to the way I see things, then to hell with you" is simply not the way to go about it. It does not set a good precedent for the community - and that's what we are, lest anyone forget.
Make no mistake: I thoroughly encourage and support any and all IC reactions as your character (and this is a general "your," directed at no particular person, since it's evident that Aya isn't alone in her thinking) sees fit. What I don't support, on an OOC level, is 1.) blanket statements, for one, regarding a diverse group of characters with numerous motivations and differing circumstances, and 2.) declaring refusal to interact with someone because you disagree with their RP choices. The former is simply making assumptions, and the latter is at best exclusionist and, at worst, metagaming.
RE: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Sign up here))(Under Construction)) - Zhavi - 07-15-2014
Before you even get into the problem of consequences, I'm still wondering just who out of those who were collared are known to be part of the whole 'kill everyone' scheme.
Because -- let's face it -- if no one or few enough people (whether or not they're willing to talk being the key) knows what you did then yeah, you are going to get off without any form of punishment at all.
That and if we're using history as an example, soldiers of the losing side have gone native, so to speak, when their side lost for many, many years. Leadership doesn't usually get to run away -- they are well known, and probably arrogant enough to have a gajillion portraits made. But your common run of the mill soldier? Just another anonymous face -- unless someone is dogged enough to track them down and personally see to their punishment (and even then, it depends on who that dogged person is. Some pissy cobbler probably isn't going to be given much time from a busy-ass paper pusher who already has to deal with tons of paperwork -- even if he has details on a well known bad guy. He's one of many, many people likely stepping forward with complaints, and that's not counting the corruption).
Soldier on the losing side on the battlefield: yeah, dead or captured.
Managed to slink off it, able to speak the language and blend in? Remains to be seen.
and too, don't get lost in the details. Details are good. I like it when things make sense. But sometimes it's a rabbit hole, and sometimes it's best to simplify things. Especially when you don't have full control over the setting.
more edits:
My suggestion.
1) Each collared player decides whether or not their character can get away with it. If another character wants to make that difficult for the former, discuss it.
2) Those who are turning themselves in should get together and decide, along with whatever loremongers are interested, how to handle their punishment.
3) Those who are caught should get together and decide, along with whatever loremongers are interested, how to handle their punishment.
4) Those who are caught/turning in who want an out for their character should sit down, again, to figure out a way to legit get their character out of death sentence/whatever that will carry forward consequences.
Maybe not everyone will be okay with the results. That happens sometimes. But this rp happened, and for the sake of those whose characters are involved, I think maybe a good direction to go in is to start taking things one step at a time and figuring out where those characters should go from here. Assuming that's not already happening in pms. Because I'm a dummy sometimes.
RE: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Sign up here))(Under Construction)) - Kage - 07-15-2014
I'm laying out for people what Kage has ICly known or done.
He knows Osric has been a large factor in the attack.
He knows that Osric is under pressure (unless it was said to Kage he doesn't know that Osric has an actual collar) but he believes that he [Osric] knew that this would cause a large blow to Ul'dah and if what has been said is what happens, is the biggest reason for it.
He knows of the two attackers who he faced. He's decided that one has enough just cause to be let free to act and the other he is asking "nicely" to help.
He knows nothing of who else may or may not have been involved but he has suggested that any known associates of Osric's to be brought in for holding and questioning. He wants Jin'li, and while knowing of him he has only just started to figure out the description of him which will be spread out amongst the Brass Blade guards who will know him so that he can't sneak in without countless of them dead and/or alerting the city of attack. Basically they're meant to be captured by any means short of death.
RE: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Sign up here))(Under Construction)) - TheBlob - 07-15-2014
I'm going to just throw this in here, ignore it or not.
First, let me say that I have no ill intent or will toward Askier, Osric, Kahna or anyone else involved in these large schemes RPs. Hell, I'm part of my own. Besides that, I do thoroughly enjoy these characters' players (...and the toons themselves I suppose.
 )I've been watching this plot develop from the outside on this forum and from the glimpses I've gathered in game. Save from a short bit of RP that I had last night with Askier, I am not involved. Nor am I up to 100% of the information (even within this thread, as I've just been checking on it as I can, I'm sure to have missed something).
I can see where the concern is and I'm honestly a bit taken back by the guff that Aya (and others.. iPads don't make for the best places to reply) got when she spoke up. However, for now I'm going to step away from the consequences those involved should be held to because honestly, that's just something for me to handle ICly. Relationships will change, grudges will be held, just as they would with any situation where an outcome or verdict didn't match what an individual predicted or thought they should be. Daphine thinks Askier should have had stricter consequences when he threatened the city with a bomb many moons ago.. but it didn't happen. I don't know the workings of his situation ICly so I play with what Daphine knows. She feels sorry for him and the situation he was put into...but that's a man she can't trust despite the friends he has in his corner. It's just how it's worked out. I don't fault anyone, and as I've said, I still like the players.. it's all IC (He should be imprisoned! Not guilty?! WHAT!? STUPID GOVERNMENT RAWRAWRAWR... Canada...
)My question lies here.
What are we supposed to do if we're not involved in this RP? If we didn't actively sign up to participate in this?
Am just supposed to agree that the city has been attacked? Â That this event that has poisoned the city's supply of water, something that I would think would be news worthy and panic inducing (regardless of the type of news sources we have. Criers on the street would just as well as a city wide facebook or news channel 4). Or am I supposed to let this duality begin? That my character, who is played as a doctor under contract for the Flames, curiously received no patients dying within 24 hours (or what have you). Or a resident who bathed the next morning not knowing of anything. Touched by the twelve and saved to live another day?Â
Am I missing something that gives me an out?
I'm not one to completely shut down another person's RP. If you walk up to me spouting a strange tongue and calling yourself the high prince of Calcutta, I'll RP with you.. that doesn't mean I agree with what you're RPing, but you should be allowed to do what makes you happy. Â However, I think the reach that which this event took place may have stretched a bit far (at least for my preference) as it's has the possibility of effecting everyone's immersion that plays within the walls of the city. Â
I'm fortunate that Daphine has reason not to have been in the city for some time and can work out all the "wibbly wobbly let's make this all fit and make sense" bits with little interruption to my own RP, but now that she's back in the city and has been made aware of this ICly I can see where this might get a bit sticky. Â
(Though the RP with Raandal and Daphine bickering over their duty to the city over their preference to a certain Miqo was an interesting twist to the night because I honestly didn't see it getting shut down like that!)
Anywho, I'm sure I've prattled on enough nonsense, just thought I'd toss in my two cents since that's what the internet is for after all.
Good luck with the trials! Hope you all can get to some sort of resolution for all involved!
RE: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Sign up here))(Under Construction)) - Erik Mynhier - 07-15-2014
We had two characters come to RWHQ tonight to "find Askier". On the way random players, some not even associated with the RPC, but having overheard the plot joined in without the original two asking. What formed was a lynchmob outside our door that had to be RPed away. This thing is spreading to the masses IC and OOC.
The RP is fantastic, but the mass deaths... I have in all honesty been trying to RP away from that by saying stuff like guards posted, alchemist working around the clock, water being shipped in.
This RP is amazing, Askier and Kahn'a are amazing, but the mass poison may be to big. The idea is thrilling, but maybe we should rp it away quickly before they hang my buddy.
The biggest strength of this storyline is the number of people who have jumped in, its truly amazing and shows the communities need and want of an overarching community generated story. But at the same time it leaves the minority scratching their heads saying, "What are they doing?"
If we are doing this as a community, we may need to come together and fix some of these wholes, not by turning on the guys who are running it (not saying anyone is), but by getting with them and organizing better some ideas that can help tone down the crazy. We are all guilty, anyone who said "YAY FUN!" and ran to the gate to fight has their hands dirty. So no blame (not saying there is) but the points here are solid. We need to all sit down and figure out how we are going to settle this, before we get there.
Anyway, hell of a fun time guys, keep it up.
RE: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Sign up here))(Under Construction)) - McBeefâ„¢ - 07-15-2014
(07-15-2014, 03:28 AM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: We had two characters come to RWHQ tonight to "find Askier". On the way random players, some not even associated with the RPC, but having overheard the plot joined in without the original two asking. What formed was a lynchmob outside our door that had to be RPed away. This thing is spreading to the masses IC and OOC.
That's why we have a cannon in our front yard.
GET OFF MY LAWN!!
RE: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Sign up here))(Under Construction)) - Erik Mynhier - 07-15-2014
(07-15-2014, 03:34 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:(07-15-2014, 03:28 AM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: We had two characters come to RWHQ tonight to "find Askier". On the way random players, some not even associated with the RPC, but having overheard the plot joined in without the original two asking. What formed was a lynchmob outside our door that had to be RPed away. This thing is spreading to the masses IC and OOC.
That's why we have a cannon in our front yard.
GET OFF MY LAWN!!
So do we, but Lala's are nimble. They dodge those balls like nothing.
RE: Blood on the Sands Episodic rp event (Sign up here))(Under Construction)) - McBeefâ„¢ - 07-15-2014
(07-15-2014, 03:56 AM)Erik Mynhier Wrote:(07-15-2014, 03:34 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote:(07-15-2014, 03:28 AM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: We had two characters come to RWHQ tonight to "find Askier". On the way random players, some not even associated with the RPC, but having overheard the plot joined in without the original two asking. What formed was a lynchmob outside our door that had to be RPed away. This thing is spreading to the masses IC and OOC.
That's why we have a cannon in our front yard.
GET OFF MY LAWN!!
So do we, but Lala's are nimble. They dodge those balls like nothing.
That's what Grapeshot is for.