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+--- Thread: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? (/showthread.php?tid=9094)
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Seriphyn - 12-05-2014
My motto is that if you need a special "thing", like not playing human or claiming to be a rare archetype (in this case, a Job), to make your character interesting...your character is probably not interesting.
Not attacking anyone here or anywhere in particular, but I always thought it was something people could take into consideration when making a character.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Kellach Woods - 12-05-2014
(12-05-2014, 09:12 PM)Val Wrote: To my knowledge, they really only state that they manipulate the aether that is around them in order to cast their jutsu and that it is incredibly tasking, leaving the caster fatigued and in need of recharge. It's obviously just an excuse for the game mechanic, but I'd imagine in RP it means that it takes a LOT to do it. Val's always been a mostly physical fighter, and giving him Ninjutsu just helps to level the playing field against casters--but I don't want to cheese it and make him OP.It does fit with my personal headcanon of usage of mudras. Also, you might be using that as a way to explain why you get less tired. More water = Less exertion of your personal aether maybe?
I like the idea.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Oli! - 12-05-2014
(12-05-2014, 04:59 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:(12-05-2014, 04:38 PM)Val Wrote: [...] Unless they're a miqo'te or another race with acute hearing[...]Miqo'te are NOT the "acute hearing" race. They have a stronger sense of smell but it's the Elezen you go to for sensitive ears.
And the Plainsfolk Lalafell, thank you very much.
No one ever remembers us. The struggle is real. ;~;
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Zyrusticae - 12-05-2014
(12-05-2014, 06:31 PM)Val Wrote: I keep hearing different things about them, and I've seen some people RP that they have good hearing, smell, and powerful legs. I've SEEN where SE says they have a great sense of smell and powerful legs, so I just made it to be a Miqo'te to show that it would be one I would at least be somewhat willing to accept.Oh, you should not discount the power of smell! Creatures with particularly good senses of smell are actually capable of navigating their environments exclusively through smell (and don't forget how blood hounds can track things across VAST distances purely by following their scent!). In fact, a blind Miqo'te with a very good nose could be an extraordinarily formidable hunter.
I'd say smelling through smoke would be harder than hearing someone, considering what you said. It would clog the senses and likely cloud over whatever scent the enemy has with that sooty smoke smell. Not to mention that being able to smell someone =/= knowing what that person is gonna do.
The hearing thing is kind of silly, though. I mean, perhaps Miqo'te would be able to hear better in the directions their ears are facing thanks to their cone-like shapes, but human (and by extension, elven) ears are by far the best for picking up sounds from every direction and is probably a big contributor to our survival as a species. I would seriously argue that a Miqo'te would be easier to sneak up on than any of the other races... unless you have a distinctive scent, of course. Then, of course, the solution is to approach from downwind!
(12-05-2014, 09:24 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: My motto is that if you need a special "thing", like not playing human or claiming to be a rare archetype (in this case, a Job), to make your character interesting...your character is probably not interesting.My thoughts exactly.
Not attacking anyone here or anywhere in particular, but I always thought it was something people could take into consideration when making a character.
There are plenty of stock-standard human beings that are very interesting indeed, simply because they've developed unique characteristics that stand out without actually being... you know, non- or super-human.
Take fighting game characters, for example. There are loads of iconic fighting game characters out there whose only schtick is that they have a nice design and a unique fighting style. Makoto of SFIII and SF4 is particularly noteworthy in this regard - she's just a tomboy in a gi and wearing a long scarf, but her build and brutal fighting style are enough to make her stand out. No special snowflake superpowers and she's perfectly human.
That's not to say that one should never play around with superpowers... it's just that they tend to be used as a crutch in place of any actual character hook or anything else. Crutches are bad, mmkay?
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Val - 12-05-2014
(12-05-2014, 09:29 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote:(12-05-2014, 09:12 PM)Val Wrote: To my knowledge, they really only state that they manipulate the aether that is around them in order to cast their jutsu and that it is incredibly tasking, leaving the caster fatigued and in need of recharge. It's obviously just an excuse for the game mechanic, but I'd imagine in RP it means that it takes a LOT to do it. Val's always been a mostly physical fighter, and giving him Ninjutsu just helps to level the playing field against casters--but I don't want to cheese it and make him OP.It does fit with my personal headcanon of usage of mudras. Also, you might be using that as a way to explain why you get less tired. More water = Less exertion of your personal aether maybe?
I like the idea.
The thing is that they don't use personal aether at ALL. They just use some sort of hidden technique to manipulate aether AROUND them. That's why I decided to go with a geomancer-like approach =)
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Val - 12-05-2014
(12-05-2014, 09:34 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Oh, you should not discount the power of smell! Creatures with particularly good senses of smell are actually capable of navigating their environments exclusively through smell (and don't forget how blood hounds can track things across VAST distances purely by following their scent!). In fact, a blind Miqo'te with a very good nose could be an extraordinarily formidable hunter.
Oh, I don't discount the sense of smell. What I mean is that the scent of smoke could likely be stronger and dilute their sense of smell, making it harder to detect them through the smoke. And regardless, smell =/= sight. You may be able to tell that someone is in front of you, but that would be pretty much it. You wouldn't be able to tell if they're punching or kicking at you.
EDIT: And I also agree with what you stated about the archetype. It isn't needed. It's something that Val is embarking on spiritually and for his own personal reasons. As for the character, he's never been more than a Miqo'te with a lance and a pair of daggers =)
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Artigan - 12-05-2014
Being the Azure Dragoon is one thing, RPing a Job is another, and faulting players for RPing things that are in the universe they are role playing in is just god damn silly.
Being a Sue is silly, being a Job is not. If you want to role play an asthmatic individual, bound to a wheel chair, and wielding a rusty sewing pen more power to you.
Don't fault others for not playing an r-tard with all the grace of derp da herp, and talent of a floundering fish on some beach. Being powerful is not being a sue, having a unique flair is not being a sue, having all the powers and being infallible is.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Berrod Armstrong - 12-05-2014
(12-05-2014, 09:24 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: My motto is that if you need a special "thing", like not playing human or claiming to be a rare archetype (in this case, a Job), to make your character interesting...your character is probably not interesting.Eh, I play my character as a skilled monk, and the majority of my roleplay is about his everyday life, his struggles, his relationships with people and his personal growth. Though you're probably right, since I don't -need- Berrod to be a monk. I just chose to because I knew I could pull it off.
Not attacking anyone here or anywhere in particular, but I always thought it was something people could take into consideration when making a character.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Iex - 12-06-2014
Sometimes, you have to start your character off as a "Mary Sue." It is a starting place for folks. Different people enjoy different focuses of their Roleplay. Honestly, if you find the jobs as an interesting focus of your character, more power to you.
You have to start somewhere... no character is completely flushed out before being created. Sometimes all you have at the moment is you want to play class/job X and go from there. If anything... your character should be interesting to you, the opinion of other people is lower priority. Of course if you start roleplaying with other folks you need to be respectful of other folks and in general "lore and group friendly" by adjusting your character as needed for RPing with different groups. (A powerful mage, instead of Blasting away foes etc... focusing on assisting and bolstering folks, or declining to bring up certain aspects of the character during more public rps.)
 I don't think anyone tries to play the special someone (the WHM from MSQ the Azure Dragoon). Even if someone rped a White Mage or a Black Mage I don't think that really is a problem given they have a backstory with it. The magic is not inaccessible. In the case of Dragoons, it may seem odd for any Ishgardian House member to be anywhere but the North, but you cannot fault folks for wanting to RP.
How a character preforms their skills is really up to them cause you know....artistic license and the character itself. How someone plays a character may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it does not mean they are 'wrong.'
If someone thinks your character isn't interesting that is on them, regardless of lore/job/whatever. If you think your character is interesting, you might as well go with it and adjust your character as you learn. It cannot be expected of anyone to know all the lore restrictions and what not about a character idea. It also cannot be expected that a character will be perfect and deep the moment it is born at... 5am every once in a while on Balmung... given that it is open. Character creation should never stop at the uninterruptable cut scene.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Zelmanov - 12-07-2014
(12-06-2014, 02:24 AM)Iex Wrote:  In the case of Dragoons, it may seem odd for any Ishgardian House member to be anywhere but the North, but you cannot fault folks for wanting to RP.
So much this. As someone who RP's a full blown Dragoon, loyal to Ishgard as opposed to a heretic, disgraced soldier or deserter (I've surprisingly come across few people, if any, actually RP anything else when it comes to Ishgard. This is not a slam against them by the way), I had to make a story that would give my character freedom outside of the icy confines of Coerthas.Â
Why? BECAUSE NO ONE HANGS OUT THERE (unless for specific RP episodes in the region). Everyone is in Ul'dah, for whatever reason why Ul'dah became the place to go for RP it has made the RP outside of the Quicksands rare and lonely.Â
Especially because, perhaps to my detriment, my character wouldn't join an FC (because most FC's are the type that double as IC organizations) I crave contact with as many RP'rs as possible and that means the Quicksands for good or ill.Â
That is why you'll find Ishgardians so far south, because there aren't many of us who RP them and even fewer who'll wait around in Coerthas for a semblance of RP action
as for why Dragoon stigma?Â
actually wasn't aware of it till this topic came up here >_>. Maybe its decent writing that has yet to land me in the crossfire of someone's prejudice (lol yeah right) but I guess it is something echoed in the posts that came before me.
Dragoons are the hardest to play to lore in a satisfying manner for all parties. (please note following reasons have a degree of  hyperbole)Â
-If you aren't Elezen or Hyur, automatic special snowflake.Â
- The existence of a "Novice" Dragoon is nigh impossible, due primarily to the fact that the title is awarded post-dragon killing. So a Dragoon is someone who has -already- proven their worth. Considering how many people have ongoing mastery of their "Class" as part of a character, you can understand why some people may be miffed at the thought that someone enters fully formed while they can only create a small puddle on the floor. At the very least, even a new dragoon is good enough to have gone to battle, killed -dragons- and returned, even if his acrobatics are...in need of polishing.
- If you are aspiring to be a dragoon, if you are outside of Ishgard, you have failed. Ishgard is the only nation in Eorzea in -active- war and so anyone in a military position to achieve dragooniness (new word, deal with it) is fighting against dragons or on reserve to do so. Can't go gallivanting about Eorzea, let alone wasting away at the Quicksands.
Say you've done everything to mitigate or avoid the above. Then what is your character doing down south and not killing dragons? You are one of their best assets!
Most common route I've seen is
"I've been caught in the crosshair of inquisitor accusations and fled, valuing my life over Ishgard and I have tossed aside my country" Â there is nothing wrong with it. In fact, most that follow this tend to not wear the ceremonial armor nor bare the weapon and go a more ronin style RP.
aaaand not much else. I've gone the route of well laid out circumstance that could still easily land myself in Special Snowflake territory in a lot of people's books.
If the above reasons are not the case for the stigma, I guess it comes to the moments of high contention and drama that comes with RP combat. Someone says they can do this or can't be thrown off guard by that, why? because Dragoon. Then people get -miffed-. Â
Or perhaps people with shoddy rp skill tend to stick out in people's minds the most and then they notice he is a Dragoon as well and just adds that on top in a sort of "Of course he god mods, he's a dragoon" in confirmation bias.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aya - 12-07-2014
(12-07-2014, 06:50 AM)Zelmanov Wrote: - The existence of a "Novice" Dragoon is nigh impossible, due primarily to the fact that the title is awarded post-dragon killing. So a Dragoon is someone who has -already- proven their worth. Considering how many people have ongoing mastery of their "Class" as part of a character, you can understand why some people may be miffed at the thought that someone enters fully formed while they can only create a small puddle on the floor. At the very least, even a new dragoon is good enough to have gone to battle, killed -dragons- and returned, even if his acrobatics are...in need of polishing.I keep hearing this idea that one is not a Dragoon, unless one has earned the title by killing a dragon, but I really suspect we're going to find out this isn't the case. There look to be two different usages of the word "Dragoon":
Dragoon Job: A group of elite Ishgardian soldiers trained specifically to fight dragons.
Dragoon Title: Any Ishgardian soldier who has successfully killed a dragon.
There are some circumstances in which case the job could require the title, but these don't make much sense (would the manpower starved Ishgardians cull their potential Dragoon recruitment pool by first sending them untrained against dragons, just to see who survives?). Becoming a dragoon is likely a years-long, if not life-long process that weeds out all but the most capable of soldiers before they reach the point that they first enter combat against Dragons. I've heard Attack on Titan brought up in this thread, and that really does seem like an apt comparison. That would make the idea of "novice" Dragoons both reasonable, and necessary. Whether or not any are on the outside world, well that's a matter for a good RP story!
It is possible that the Dragoon job abilities can't be learned until after killing a dragon, such as if they are some sort of "grant" of power that occurs after a soldier has proven his or her worth by killing a dragon. Or, perhaps, "Now that you've shown you're skilled enough to kill a dragon in combat, you'll enter the 'Dragoon Crash Course' six step program, which will teach you to... kill dragons in combat. Good luck!" Anyway, these sorts of approaches would leave the full lore behind the job just as a inane as that in the job quests themselves. I hope that's not the case :-]
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Zelmanov - 12-07-2014
I was thinking of Attack On Titan but chose to leave it out. I like your head cannon Aya. We'll definitely get a lore dump when heavensward drops....
I just really hope its a jeuno situation and not ISHGARD IS TEH EVLULZ.