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+--- Thread: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea (/showthread.php?tid=3437)
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - synaesthetic - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 04:01 PM)Reppu Wrote: Being told to shut up and sit down warrants holding you head up high and pushing against the current.
Being told your view is understood and that the stance is being looked into? I, at least, believe this warrants joined empathy.
You don't know much about corporations, do you?
That response they gave us? That's Corporatese for "We don't give a flying fuck about your desires, because a) you are too small a minority to negatively impact our profits and b) most of you will buy our product anyway."
Corporatese is always polite, even when it's describing to you exactly how they are going to take their six-foot-long engorged penis and shove it directly up your virgin asshole.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - shotgunbadger - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 04:04 PM)Sylas Wrote: Square Enix is a company. They will do what is best for their wallets, especially with the company teetering on the edge of financial collapse as it is. The game gaining a higher rating in some countries can adversely effect sales in that country, perhaps even to the point of the game not being profitable.
That is literally the last thing SE wants.
Yelling, kicking and screaming accomplishes nothing if you don't vote with the one thing a consumer has the right to: Their money. If you dislike something a company is doing, don't support their product.
The reason Microsoft changed the XBox One policies? It has nothing to do with any of the 'outrage' but has everything to do the sales numbers. It was easy enough to see on Amazon preorders that the PS4 was outselling the XBox one in preorders. It didn't take a genius to figure out why, either.
So instead of ranting, raving and throwing out rhetoric to try and persuade people that you are right, I encourage people that are negatively affected by this (or anyone that feels passionately enough about the subject) to not support the game. Show Square Enix that they stand to lose more money by not offering marriage equality compared to risking having the game get an 18+ rating in other countries.
Of course, this could all be bunk and they add it in regardless of what anyone says. I dunno.
Either way, I think everyone can agree that Square Enix certainly opened an odd can of worms on themselves by adding this feature in the first place. It's not hard to look at international news and see that homosexual rights is a hot topic all over the world.
No one here is ranting and raving and crying, seriously stop this patronizing garbage.
And what, your solution is 'hey if you don't like being ignored maybe you should all leave!'? How does that fix anything?
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Yini Kihn - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 04:01 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: My fiancee just had the idea of getting me to write an open letter to Square-Enix on this topic that she will translate into Japanese. We will post this letter on the official FFXIV forums as well as sending it in e-mail form to Square-Enix.
This sounds like a good idea to me!
The only thing I'd suggest is to hold off on sending it for awhile. I doubt anyone at Square-Enix has time to read anything right now given their release schedule, especially when it comes to issues that do not concern 2.0. I suspect you'd make far more of an impact if you send it 2–3 weeks after launch.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Domri Blackblade - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 03:58 PM)Twinflame Wrote: I think you're over-accepting Reppu's mischaracterizations of things that have been said in this thread. They is actually very little vitriol being directed at SE over this. Are we calling them discriminatory? Yes. We are calling them that because that is how they are behaving. Are we being sensitive to Japanese culture? No. We are not Japanese and cultural aspects that actively discriminate against us do not warrant our sensitivities. If we have to fight against Japanese cultural norms, then we will fight against Japanese cultural norms.
Nobody in here, as far as I can see, has gone as far as to "act like a banshee". Instead we have been tactfully expressing our anger in ways that, while they no doubt exude frustration and offense, also communicate the source of that frustration and offense.
Certain people in this thread are just misrepresenting these as somehow exceptionally vitriolic or vehement, which they are not. The oppressed have every right to be angry, and anyone trying to misrepresent that as "toxic" or unreasonable is completely in the wrong. And besides, they're responding to tone, which is not debate.
May Rosa Parks analogy is not a response to the vitriolic accusations. It is applying Reppu's exact logic to an alternate situation. You cannot say that the logic applies to this situation but not that one, because that isn't how logic works. If Reppu's "respect the oppressor" logic doesn't work in all cases, then the logic is flawed.
I'm actually not taking sides. I have my stance and I have expressed it in other venues. I don't accept their culture, personally, but I understand where they are coming from. And I personally find it frustrating as well. (I didn't approve of a lot of the things that have gone on in my life due to prejudice against my race and orientation, but I understand why it exists. Understanding =/= approval or acceptance in any form.) My issue is with everyone focusing their energy on arguing with each other when that passion should be directed to SE.
I think Reppu has valid points as well as Unity. Do I agree more with one than the other? No. I think both could take from each other. The Japanese traditionalism is frustrating, upsetting, and not okay, but it is not the same as the religious extremism and execution of homosexuals in other countries. That is an analogy I cannot get behind.
And I'm willing to admit I was wrong in my interpretation of your intention with mentioning Rosa Parks.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Naunet - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 04:02 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: I straight up don't trust people in media about homosexuality being portrayed in a good way until I actually see it, and I have no reason to think I should start it now.
Pretty much this. We have absolutely no reason to trust a company to not discriminate when the norm is to discriminate.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Reppu - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 04:04 PM)Sylas Wrote: Square Enix is a company. They will do what is best for their wallets, especially with the company teetering on the edge of financial collapse as it is. The game gaining a higher rating in some countries can adversely effect sales in that country, perhaps even to the point of the game not being profitable.
That is literally the last thing SE wants.
Yelling, kicking and screaming accomplishes nothing if you don't vote with the one thing a consumer has the right to: Their money. If you dislike something a company is doing, don't support their product.
The reason Microsoft changed the XBox One policies? It has nothing to do with any of the 'outrage' but has everything to do the sales numbers. It was easy enough to see on Amazon preorders that the PS4 was outselling the XBox one in preorders. It didn't take a genius to figure out why, either.
So instead of ranting, raving and throwing out rhetoric to try and persuade people that you are right, I encourage people that are negatively affected by this (or anyone that feels passionately enough about the subject) to not support the game. Show Square Enix that they stand to lose more money by not offering marriage equality compared to risking having the game get an 18+ rating in other countries.
Of course, this could all be bunk and they add it in regardless of what anyone says. I dunno.
Either way, I think everyone can agree that Square Enix certainly opened an odd can of worms on themselves by adding this feature in the first place. It's not hard to look at international news and see that homosexual rights is a hot topic all over the world.
Well, the Japanese tend to focus on their own problems more than the rest of the world. I'm totally agreeing with you that it was pretty silly. But I do kind of get why it happened.
I'm not in favor of a boycott, but by all means. It would show some impact if that's what you want. But... if you're still going to play, what does that say?
I'm not suggesting anything with this. I'm honestly asking 'What does that say?'
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Arelian - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 04:06 PM)synaesthetic Wrote:Because the bolded isn't ranting and raving. Surely not. I'm not saying being angry is wrong, I'm saying that it won't accomplish much.(08-10-2013, 04:01 PM)Reppu Wrote: Being told to shut up and sit down warrants holding you head up high and pushing against the current.
Being told your view is understood and that the stance is being looked into? I, at least, believe this warrants joined empathy.
You don't know much about corporations, do you?
That response they gave us? That's Corporatese for "We don't give a flying fuck about your desires, because a) you are too small a minority to negatively impact our profits and b) most of you will buy our product anyway."
Corporatese is always polite, even when it's describing to you exactly how they are going to take their six-foot-long engorged penis and shove it directly up your virgin asshole.
There's a mighty big difference between "GO AWAY!!!1" and, "Vote with your wallet." They have zero reason to care about you if you don't display that their decisions will negatively impact the sales figures for their game.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - shotgunbadger - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 04:05 PM)Reppu Wrote:(08-10-2013, 04:02 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: I'm sorry it's just, why should I trust Yoshida? I mean I love the games he makes, but literally all I know about his view of gay representation is his one 'eh we'll wait for feedback'.
Someone brought up The Old Republic before, remember that when the devs outright said 'yea we'll have gay stuff for companions' and then didn't deliver until Planet of the Gays dropped and we had to spend money for a crappy expansion that had like, two dudes who said "BY THE BY I LIKEA THE DUDES" and that was a win somehow?Â
I straight up don't trust people in media about homosexuality being portrayed in a good way until I actually see it, and I have no reason to think I should start it now.
All I can say to this, and this is unfortunate and sad. To me, personally. But, you're obviously allowed to have this stance.
Also, really? The giant pink planet was kind of facepalm worthy to me from TOR.
For someone who goes on about empathy you sure say a lot of patronizing shit. I don't care how 'unfortunate and sad' my views are to you, man, why would you even say that if only to try to look superior?
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Reppu - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 04:07 PM)Naunet Wrote:(08-10-2013, 04:02 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: I straight up don't trust people in media about homosexuality being portrayed in a good way until I actually see it, and I have no reason to think I should start it now.
Pretty much this. We have absolutely no reason to trust a company to not discriminate when the norm is to discriminate.
And I have said I have too much faith in humanity. This is likely flawed? But it is my stance.
Your stance does not have to be respected, but the right to have it would see blood spilled. Of course I'm squeemish so I'd probably hide somewhere when the fight breaks out.
(08-10-2013, 04:08 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote:(08-10-2013, 04:05 PM)Reppu Wrote:(08-10-2013, 04:02 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote: I'm sorry it's just, why should I trust Yoshida? I mean I love the games he makes, but literally all I know about his view of gay representation is his one 'eh we'll wait for feedback'.
Someone brought up The Old Republic before, remember that when the devs outright said 'yea we'll have gay stuff for companions' and then didn't deliver until Planet of the Gays dropped and we had to spend money for a crappy expansion that had like, two dudes who said "BY THE BY I LIKEA THE DUDES" and that was a win somehow?Â
I straight up don't trust people in media about homosexuality being portrayed in a good way until I actually see it, and I have no reason to think I should start it now.
All I can say to this, and this is unfortunate and sad. To me, personally. But, you're obviously allowed to have this stance.
Also, really? The giant pink planet was kind of facepalm worthy to me from TOR.
For someone who goes on about empathy you sure say a lot of patronizing shit. I don't care how 'unfortunate and sad' my views are to you, man, why would you even say that if only to try to look superior?
You're reading too much into things. I am saying that it is unfortunate and sad that you feel this way, because your point is valid. I am sad because the world WARRANTS your viewpoint.
Quit searching only for negatives, please.
Empathy: The ability to understand and share the feelings of another.
Consider the word. I do understand and I do share your feelings. I am sad because it's warranted.
Just, this time? I'm putting faith and hope. This time.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Eve Malusion - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 03:50 PM)Reppu Wrote: Snipety snip~Well, you may have missed my point as well. At no point did I state I was expecting them to change it or announce it right away, the chance for that has already passed, and now it's stuck in a situation that can't be rectified until at least after launch. I was just genuinely curious about if there was actually a case of it happening to a MMO because of the core differences between it being a service that happens to have it available and a single player title.
Really my opinion on the whole matter is that the best way to handle it would have been to just not bring it up in the first place. Just mention the marriage system and leave it at that saying more information would be given closer to it actually being released, a stalling answer, sure, but there is a reason we have those in the first place, and that is to avoid the situation it is currently in.
I'm frankly far too cynical a person to actually see them changing this for a while after it has actually been announced. It is now in a situation where it will create bad PR either way. When it comes down to it, I think the developers might be open to it, but this still leaves that major shareholders need to see it as profitable. If it was handled discreetly it wouldn't be too hard to manage, but once there is a PR storm about it, knowing there is bad PR for either choice, they have to be convinced that the profits from so-called "Pink money" is larger than the losses from people who have problems with it being allowed. In a western market I most certainly would very much say that I believe that to be the case currently, but I assume that it might be quite a bit harder to convince them of that in a country as conservative as Japan is. I'm honestly not even going to pretend I know nearly enough about Japanese culture to make an educated call on how that would fare over there.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - shotgunbadger - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 04:08 PM)Sylas Wrote:(08-10-2013, 04:06 PM)synaesthetic Wrote:Because the bolded isn't ranting and raving. Surely not. I'm not saying being angry is wrong, I'm saying that it won't accomplish much.(08-10-2013, 04:01 PM)Reppu Wrote: Being told to shut up and sit down warrants holding you head up high and pushing against the current.
Being told your view is understood and that the stance is being looked into? I, at least, believe this warrants joined empathy.
You don't know much about corporations, do you?
That response they gave us? That's Corporatese for "We don't give a flying fuck about your desires, because a) you are too small a minority to negatively impact our profits and b) most of you will buy our product anyway."
Corporatese is always polite, even when it's describing to you exactly how they are going to take their six-foot-long engorged penis and shove it directly up your virgin asshole.
There's a mighty big difference between "GO AWAY!!!1" and, "Vote with your wallet." They have zero reason to care about you if you don't display that their decisions will negatively impact the sales figures for their game.
Oh snap you found one person who in a thread said a thing, we're clearly all ranting raving shrieking babies! Good job!
I'm really glad you just want us to go away and don't care about those of us who don't, you're a very supportive person.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Naunet - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 04:03 PM)Reppu Wrote: Are you reading my posts that praise you and show empathy?
Of course, and I appreciate it, even though it is backwardly insulting people I feel camaraderie with (which I don't appreciate).
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Twinflame - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 03:44 PM)Reppu Wrote: And, flatly speaking? If you really think that SquareEnix is 100% discriminative, then by all means. However, truly discriminative individuals do not come out and say 'We are looking into it'.
Of course they do. This is absolutely what your basic every-day casual oppression sounds like. It is polite and calm because it is normal, and the person delivering it does not think they are being discriminatory. Nobody thinks Yoshi is going out of his way to be a jerk or anything. It is what he's doing, though.
(08-10-2013, 03:37 PM)Reppu Wrote: Quit with the power words like 'foolish'. You're hurting your cause every time you use strong words against your own fellows. We do not have to agree on the extent of things, but we're fighting for the same thing.
'Foolish' isn't a 'power word'. 'Toxic' and 'Unreasonable' are power words. Those ones are on you. You love power words.
(08-10-2013, 03:59 PM)Reppu Wrote: What is being asked is to put trust in Yoshida to deliver a favorable outcome. What is being asked is to understand the cultural difference, but not accept it. It is to show tolerance, but not tolerance to intolerance.
This is extremely misrepresentation. For one, no, I will in no way trust Yoshida. He is a business man out to get money. I don't think he's evil or a jerk or anything. I like him and what he does. I'm not going to trust him to not oppress, though, because he's already done so. I understand his culture and flatly deny it. I do not tolerate intolerance, nor will I tolerate the aspects of a foreign culture that cause intolerance. What, then, should I be tolerating in this situation? Yoshida's passive discrimination? To that I say: no.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Naunet - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 04:07 PM)Meia Wrote: I think Reppu has valid points as well as Unity.
I'm going to have to request that you (and Reppu, and whoever else) stop lumping us together just because of a Free Company tag. Ildur is in Unity as well and actually disagreed with us. And that is okay.
RE: Arguments For Marriage Equality in Eorzea - Arelian - 08-10-2013
(08-10-2013, 04:10 PM)shotgunbadger Wrote:You really are reading into things way too much. Like, whoa.Â(08-10-2013, 04:08 PM)Sylas Wrote:(08-10-2013, 04:06 PM)synaesthetic Wrote:Because the bolded isn't ranting and raving. Surely not. I'm not saying being angry is wrong, I'm saying that it won't accomplish much.(08-10-2013, 04:01 PM)Reppu Wrote: Being told to shut up and sit down warrants holding you head up high and pushing against the current.
Being told your view is understood and that the stance is being looked into? I, at least, believe this warrants joined empathy.
You don't know much about corporations, do you?
That response they gave us? That's Corporatese for "We don't give a flying fuck about your desires, because a) you are too small a minority to negatively impact our profits and b) most of you will buy our product anyway."
Corporatese is always polite, even when it's describing to you exactly how they are going to take their six-foot-long engorged penis and shove it directly up your virgin asshole.
There's a mighty big difference between "GO AWAY!!!1" and, "Vote with your wallet." They have zero reason to care about you if you don't display that their decisions will negatively impact the sales figures for their game.
Oh snap you found one person who in a thread said a thing, we're clearly all ranting raving shrieking babies! Good job!
I'm really glad you just want us to go away and don't care about those of us who don't, you're a very supportive person.
I'm saying that, and I'll bold it this time, why should a company care? The goal is to make money, not to make a statement or change the status quo.