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+--- Thread: [Discussion] Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead (/showthread.php?tid=17480)
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Nero - 10-20-2016
(10-20-2016, 01:06 PM)Oli! Wrote: This is still crazy vague and unclear. The "chosen few" could refer to either normal people or the Padjal, and who are they instructing? Each other? The 1.0 and 2.0 WHMs? Anybody they want?
I seriously don't understand what SE's aversion to clarity is all about.
It's a good bit of irony considering that this whole Dragoon brouhaha is about Square Enix going laser-focused with specifics.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - AlionLucada - 10-20-2016
Still probably a good idea not to RP stuff that's supposed to be super rare/exclusive, just because of how easy it is for them to change something in the lore that suddenly makes everything you've done irrelevant. Just to be safe. Only reason I can see for people to -need- to RP a WHM/BLM instead of an exceptional Conjurer/Thaumaturge is because they want to be special.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Oli! - 10-20-2016
(10-20-2016, 01:51 PM)AlionLucada Wrote: Only reason I can see for people to -need- to RP a WHM/BLM instead of an exceptional Conjurer/Thaumaturge is because they want to be special.
I disagree with this on the premise that there are certain kinds of plots / storylines that make more sense if one is capable of being one of those jobs. One example would be going out into the world to search for dangerous BLM artifacts in the pursuit of knowledge as a fireball-slinging Indiana Jones.
Could you do that as a THM? Probably, but there's not much point if you can't actually use those things without exploding.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Saravahn - 10-20-2016
It doesn't say word for word, "Oh, by the way, those chosen few... we mean the Padjal."
But I do feel it is pretty heavily implied. The elementals said, "K, you guys can do this again...." and ever since the Padjal have been the stewards of the art.
Edit: And it is "being revived" in their (the Padjal's) hands. It's a big leap, in my opinion, to take that to mean the Padjal are training other people.
Edit 2: I can read good. "Overseeing its careful instruction..." Fair enough.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Melkire - 10-20-2016
I took "chosen few" to mean that the elementals passed over stewardship of white magic to the Padjal. Nothing more, nothing less. Because that's how the language reads: "chosen few [of the elementals]" flows into "the Padjal".
The line that really carries weight is “The Padjal… oversee its careful instruction,†which implies that they are teaching non-Padjali, that they are selective, and that they have criteria.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Valence - 10-21-2016
Not really, they could be teaching to other padjal. Or to the WoL.
Anyway, it would totally contradict the WhM questline, unless suddenly they had a change of mind or something... Bleh.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Saravahn - 10-21-2016
(10-21-2016, 03:39 AM)Valence Wrote: Not really, they could be teaching to other padjal. Or to the WoL.This was my thought as well... teaching it to newborn/created Padjal since, I would imagine, they don't just suddenly know every thing there is to know of white magic the moment they're chosen.
Anyway, it would totally contradict the WhM questline, unless suddenly they had a change of mind or something... Bleh.
Either way, even if it isn't other Padjal, I would personally feel uncomfortable, still, roleplaying a WHM that was taught in this manner. It means I have a character that rubbed elbows with the leaders of Gridania and, likely, holds a high office him/herself due to their training.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Aldotsk - 10-21-2016
In regards to Padjal teaching non Padjali conjurers to become WHM, wouldn't that kind of imply that we should accept role players to RP as WHMs eventually considering that there will be increase of apprentices and teachings by these newly full fledged WHMs?
Of course, this would actually apply after like few years in game persay including after like one or two more expansions? (Or even now since it's probably after few years from ARR)
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Oli! - 10-21-2016
(10-21-2016, 02:33 PM)Aldotsk Wrote: In regards to Padjal teaching non Padjali conjurers to become WHM, wouldn't that kind of imply that we should accept role players to RP as WHMs eventually considering that there will be increase of apprentices and teachings by these newly full fledged WHMs?
Of course, this would actually apply after like few years in game persay including after like one or two more expansions? (Or even now since it's probably after few years from ARR)
Again, we have no idea who they're supposedly teaching, as myself and like two other people have pointed out. Are they teaching themselves? The 1.0 and 2.0 WHMs? Or whomever they want? We have no way of knowing which is the right answer.
SE is still keeping us in the dark, and we have no way of knowing the right answer to this question.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - PhantasticPanda - 10-21-2016
(10-21-2016, 03:39 AM)Valence Wrote: Not really, they could be teaching to other padjal. Or to the WoL.
Anyway, it would totally contradict the WhM questline, unless suddenly they had a change of mind or something... Bleh.
We should also consider the passage of time when it comes to the game world and as the MSQ develops. Take the lorebook as present tense, with the lore of the world at this point, 3.4. The beginning WHM storyline takes places 2.0, and since then, three years have passed, and there's a lot that can happen in three years, especially with the effects of the Calamity still present on Eorzea. Its not static, and the workings of the world can change. In this case, maybe the Padjal saw fit, in a world spiraling towards chaos with the WoL being that barrier, to begin teaching White Magic again but with, as stated, careful instruction. Anyone that would try to take up White Magic would no doubt have to go through the same philosophical and mental training as conjurers do plus more. It would be hard to believe a fledgling character would suddenly be adept at White Magic by the time 4.0 rolls around but more realistic to say by the time maybe 5.0 or even 6.0.
Edit: Also, what's up with all this strict regards to the lore? I find myself an avid follower of the lore, and do my best to avoid any sort of lore-breaking, or minimum lore-bending, but as roleplayers, we often work around the holes in lore, supported by the existing lore, to come up with new and interesting concepts. If we don't, it would be a pretty bland environment.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Hyrist - 10-21-2016
I've said this before but it bears repeating.
No matter how seriously you take the matter, there is nothing that will absolve the fact that any and all form of role-playing within established canon context not of your own origin can and will only amount to mere fan-fiction.
You pair this with the fact that a community can only thrive if it remains open and welcoming, and that cannot be achieved when valuing subjective (even if literal) interpretations of the lore against gameplay elements - and you establish one over-arching code beyond all others.
 Play to have fun.
For all the intensity of trying to maintain seriousness with the lore here, Square Enix, on the other hand, is quite capable of self-satire for the sake of humor, and has displayed it regularly with each Hildebrand story iteration.Â
I'll be replying to my own thread during this weekend (work kinda dragged me down, and I'm posting this with the last ounce of my sanity) regarding one of the clauses that tend to undermined how the lore itself tends to be more perceptual rather than factual, with plenty of loopholes for players to do what they want - but it really does boil down to this simple question:
If Square Enix can have fun with its own game, why can't we?
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Oli! - 10-21-2016
(10-21-2016, 07:01 PM)Hyrist Wrote: If Square Enix can have fun with its own game, why can't we?
This is an ongoing issue with this discussion.
There is a repeating thread of mentality that says that people that follow the lore very tightly are not "welcoming," are not "flexible," live to "tear others down," or do not have "fun."
Why must this be brought up almost every single time someone says that something is not definite, and is instead a player interpretation, regardless of whether or not they actually state what their level of lore compliancy actually is?
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Valence - 10-22-2016
I'm having way more fun when being lore compliant, thank you very much.
People complain that lore nazis somehow tell them how they should play and what they shouldn't do and whatnot (and I'm sure some do), but I would expect the courtesy for the extremists of the other side not to do the same...
Would be much obliged.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Hyrist - 10-22-2016
I don't think anyone going to go out and make you feel terrible for making a character that adheres to your perception of the lore Valence. I feel sorry if someone has.
But the real argument being made here is that you accept others who are playing a method you do not. Take a moment to suspend disbelief when the retired Isghardian Knight Dragoon walks in the bar and hear their tale to see if it's written well enough to make a believable story premise, before writing them off as a lorebender and deciding not to play with them.
'Being lore compliant' is a perception. We're all writing fanfiction. The fact that our characters exists at all, no matter what the premise, can be put into question. Making your character as close to what is known of the lore is possible can be fun, and I don't deny that. But it can and often does fall into the cycle of peers pressuring one another to fit within their individual perceptions of the lore -( even if their basis of that lore comes with innate flaws and contradictions.) It's at that point that I disagree. It's just not in me to try to justify if a character's perception exists one way or another. I want to see if it's well written.
Even saying something as 'lore compliant' indicates that somehow your character is more valid that someone who falls within the margins of the written lore, or contrasts a claim made by an NPC character in the game somewhere that's being taken as fact by a circle of players.
It's that level of microagression and the constant cross examining by certain other players that's causing what is being perceived as a hostile environment by those outside the regulars here looking in. Something that would bear dispelling, in my opinion, as there are really good people here.
All I've asked of people is to not take role-playing so seriously. If you're having fun scouring through the lore and writing off sections of it where you feel is forbidden for you to play, do so. What I'm asking of the wider community is to be welcoming of other perspectives when someone sees the same segment of the lore and sees an opportunity, rather than a wall.
In this specific instance, seeming the Knights Dragoon's have fallen so low in living members, perhaps this may spark a desire in Adventurers to attempt harder to adapt their martial techniques in an effort to make sure they survive, even if the order is eventually retired due to the developing peace with Ishgard and Dravania.
RE: Welp Dragoons, it was a good run, but we are all now either retired or dead - Oli! - 10-22-2016
(10-22-2016, 01:34 PM)Hyrist Wrote: But the real argument being made here is that you accept others who are playing a method you do not. Take a moment to suspend disbelief when the retired Isghardian Knight Dragoon walks in the bar and hear their tale to see if it's written well enough to make a believable story premise, before writing them off as a lorebender and deciding not to play with them.
Only some people here are saying they won't acknowledge it. Some of us haven't offered any personal takes on this at all. This is a projection of an opinion onto people under the assumption that they should have it because they enjoy lore compliance, which is inaccurate. All that some people wish of others in this thread is the acknowledgement of the fact that Inferrence does not equal Lore, which is another recurring train of thought in this thread.
Hyrist Wrote:'Being lore compliant' is a perception. We're all writing fanfiction. The fact that our characters exists at all, no matter what the premise, can be put into question. Making your character as close to what is known of the lore is possible can be fun, and I don't deny that. But it can and often does fall into the cycle of peers pressuring one another to fit within their individual perceptions of the lore -( even if their basis of that lore comes with innate flaws and contradictions.) It's at that point that I disagree. It's just not in me to try to justify if a character's perception exists one way or another. I want to see if it's well written.
Lore Compliance is not a perception. It is a sliding scale of objective relevancy that is decided upon by how many times one's character concept falls outside of defined lore guidelines, as well as how important said guidelines are compared to others. The only subjective portions of it are how many times a character must break the lore in order to lose compliant status, and how important the broken lore is.
If your character breaks the lore less times than mine does, you may objectively state that your character is more compliant than mine, plain and simple.
"We're all writing fanon" and "your character's existence is a lore-break" are meaningless statements and arguments, because they are a required premise in order for any arguments on compliance to take place. It does not follow to turn a premise against an argument that requires it, especially when both arguments do. It does not make a difference within the context of the debate, because it is a starting point without any alternative.
As for "peer pressure," you are once again assuming that pressuring is appearing in this thread just because it happens in other places. I could just as easily say that going outside of the lore brings with it a communal pressure to get anyone to accept anything, because that sort of mentality appears often among people with this mindset.
Honestly, this whole paragraph is madlib-able.
(10-22-2016, 01:34 PM)Hyrist Wrote: Even saying something as 'lore compliant' indicates that somehow your character is more valid that someone who falls within the margins of the written lore, or contrasts a claim made by an NPC character in the game somewhere that's being taken as fact by a circle of players.
This is another projection. No one even brought this up until you did. This assumes the worst about people that do not follow your own mindset.
(10-22-2016, 01:34 PM)Hyrist Wrote: It's that level of microagression and the constant cross examining by certain other players that's causing what is being perceived as a hostile environment by those outside the regulars here looking in. Something that would bear dispelling, in my opinion, as there are really good people here.
Alternatively, what's causing a perceived hostile environment is the blaming of one portion of a community for all of said community's problems, regardless of what that portion is.
(10-22-2016, 01:34 PM)Hyrist Wrote: All I've asked of people is to not take role-playing so seriously. If you're having fun scouring through the lore and writing off sections of it where you feel is forbidden for you to play, do so. What I'm asking of the wider community is to be welcoming of other perspectives when someone sees the same segment of the lore and sees an opportunity, rather than a wall.
Another projection. People are not necessarily taking roleplay "seriously" by being lore compliant and asking for lore compliance. Many people that are lore compliant spend their time pissing around and playing comedic relief characters. This entire post has been filled with random assumptions of people whose mindset you haven't even asked about or gathered enough information on to even make these assumptions.
It is entirely possible to see "an opportunity, rather than a wall" when it comes to working within lore guidelines. I could even make the argument that this passage implies a believed lack of creativity among people who enjoy compliance, and that it, again, implies that said people are not welcoming or open minded, or even care about whether or not the other person writes well.
I honestly don't think your words are doing a good job of building the bridge between people you're advocating for, here.