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+--- Thread: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts (/showthread.php?tid=10424)
RE: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts - allgivenover - 03-04-2015
The word 'escapism' has kind of a negative bend for me because it implies I indulge my hobby to escape something in my life. I RP because I enjoy it. Not because I need to escape some aspect of my life. I would still do it even if every aspect of my life was perfectly satisfying.
In fact I'm immediatly wary of overtly depressed RPers who explicitly seek escapism, as they are most likely to manifest bleed in a negative way. While a wheelchair bound RPer escaping reality isn't inherently bad, it certainly is if that is the sole reason for the roleplay or the individual never moves on from the escapism.
Indulging in an imaginative situation you can't take part of IRLÂ is not automatically escapism. When I RP a mage it is not because I cannot cast spells IRL. It's the same for the well adjusted wheelchair bound roleplayer.
And... although I have no research to back this up I do feel that most RPers tend to RP for the "wrong" reasons, those reasons being disatisfaction with real life and low self esteem/self validation. It is why so many RPers are on the young side, and why so many more give up the hobby by the time they reach my age, and why bleed can be so devastating.
RE: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts - allgivenover - 03-04-2015
(03-04-2015, 02:30 PM)OttoVann Wrote:(03-04-2015, 01:41 PM)Hihimi Wrote: Why is escapism being thrown around like a bad word? Is someone roleplaying as a long-distance runner doing it wrong because they are in a wheelchair and always wanted to be a runner? What is wrong with fulfilling our dreams?
Nothing, but RP elitists will shit all over it.
I'm comfortable with being labeled an elitist.
RE: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts - Warren Castille - 03-04-2015
Escapism: the tendency to seek distraction and relief from unpleasant realities, especially by seeking entertainment or engaging in fantasy.
Immersion: complete involvement in some activity or interest
One does not necessarily beget the other.
RE: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts - Berrod Armstrong - 03-04-2015
(03-04-2015, 02:35 PM)allgivenover Wrote: The word 'escapism' has kind of a negative bend for me because it implies I indulge my hobby to escape something in my life. I RP because I enjoy it. Not because I need to escape some aspect of my life. I would still do it even if every aspect of my life was perfectly satisfying.Escapism doesn't necessarily mean a departure from BAD THING IN LIFE -- it can simply be escape from boredom; which is the basis of entertainment. The term has been used too much to highlight those who try to get away from the less pleasant parts of life. The implication is based on a lack of that understanding.
In fact I'm immediatly wary of overtly depressed RPers who explicitly seek escapism, as they are most likely to manifest bleed in a negative way. While a wheelchair bound RPer escaping reality isn't inherently bad, it certainly is if that is the sole reason for the roleplay or the individual never moves on from the escapism.
Indulging in an imaginative situation you can't take part of IRLÂ is not automatically escapism. When I RP a mage it is not because I cannot cast spells IRL. It's the same for the well adjusted wheelchair bound roleplayer.
And... although I have no research to back this up I do feel that most RPers tend to RP for the "wrong" reasons, those reasons being disatisfaction with real life and low self esteem/self validation. It is why so many RPers are on the young side, and why so many more give up the hobby by the time they reach my age, and why bleed can be so devastating.
RE: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts - Caspar - 03-04-2015
(03-04-2015, 01:41 PM)Hihimi Wrote: Why is escapism being thrown around like a bad word? Is someone roleplaying as a long-distance runner doing it wrong because they are in a wheelchair and always wanted to be a runner? What is wrong with fulfilling our dreams?I think it's not so much that as the fact that not everyone is a skilled enough writer or cool-headed person to recognize when they've ceased to be objective about their own character. I think that a skilled writer can in fact write a character that resembles themselves and still make a captivating story. (Look at how often professional writers write novels about writers...) A player with a strong sense of objectivity can recognize the character is not them, and they don't need to react to things that happen to their character the same way their character does, or vice versa. The problem is that few of us are professionals, or 100% objective, and being too attached to the character because it resembles ourselves can sometimes lead to unpleasant rp. Like when a player gets offended and acts out against other players because their character basically is them, and other characters ICly insulted or disagreed with their character. Or when a player becomes somewhat as attached to their fictional romantic interest as their character does, and dislikes being asked to give them some time to rp with other characters.
So I think it's not so much wish fulfillment is inherently bad, just that it often is a sign of bad rp, because nobody is a flawless actor or writer, completely capable of shutting out all bleed in both directions. Most players would do well just to avoid it entirely for their own sake, or not play with people who blatantly indulge in it too much. I think it's natural to seek it out for most people, but to not indulge that instinct too deeply can have a positive effect on your writing ability in game, I feel.
RE: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts - allgivenover - 03-04-2015
(03-04-2015, 02:54 PM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote:(03-04-2015, 02:35 PM)allgivenover Wrote: The word 'escapism' has kind of a negative bend for me because it implies I indulge my hobby to escape something in my life. I RP because I enjoy it. Not because I need to escape some aspect of my life. I would still do it even if every aspect of my life was perfectly satisfying.Escapism doesn't necessarily mean a departure from BAD THING IN LIFE -- it can simply be escape from boredom; which is the basis of entertainment. The term has been used too much to highlight those who try to get away from the less pleasant parts of life. The implication is based on a lack of that understanding.
In fact I'm immediatly wary of overtly depressed RPers who explicitly seek escapism, as they are most likely to manifest bleed in a negative way. While a wheelchair bound RPer escaping reality isn't inherently bad, it certainly is if that is the sole reason for the roleplay or the individual never moves on from the escapism.
Indulging in an imaginative situation you can't take part of IRLÂ is not automatically escapism. When I RP a mage it is not because I cannot cast spells IRL. It's the same for the well adjusted wheelchair bound roleplayer.
And... although I have no research to back this up I do feel that most RPers tend to RP for the "wrong" reasons, those reasons being disatisfaction with real life and low self esteem/self validation. It is why so many RPers are on the young side, and why so many more give up the hobby by the time they reach my age, and why bleed can be so devastating.
While that may be your intended use of the word the actual definition is exactly as Warren posted.
RE: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts - Berrod Armstrong - 03-04-2015
Escapism is mental diversion by means of entertainment or recreation, as an "escape" from the perceived unpleasant or banal aspects of daily life.Â
It can also be used as a term to define the actions people take to help relieve persisting feelings of depression or general sadness.
I actually agree with Warren's definition. Boredom is also an unpleasant reality. Escapism is not exclusively a means to run away from some overarching depression or hardship. My intended use of the word is based on what it actually means -- all of it, not a skewed perception of one aspect of it.
RE: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts - Warren Castille - 03-04-2015
(03-04-2015, 02:56 PM)Caspar Wrote: [quote=Hihimi pid=153511 dateline=1425490919]
(Look at how often professional writers write novels about writers...) A player with a strong sense of objectivity can recognize the character is not them, and they don't need to react to things that happen to their character the same way their character does, or vice versa. The problem is that few of us are professionals, or 100% objective, and being too attached to the character because it resembles ourselves can sometimes lead to unpleasant rp. Like when a player gets offended and acts out against other players because their character basically is them, and other characters ICly insulted or disagreed with their character. Or when a player becomes somewhat as attached to their fictional romantic interest as their character does, and dislikes being asked to give them some time to rp with other characters.
That captures the crux of it, though: A writer's plot isn't going to be steamrolled by an outside force doing something wrong to him. The writer might suddenly fall into a depression because of something in real life, but the fiction is completely in control of the writer. The trick with roleplay is that none of us are truly in control of our destinies here if we share our worlds with other people; It's cooperative, not single player. The writer will likely not be surprised by a sudden betrayal or break-up or loss of life or something happening in-world, but the same can't be said for those of us living in it.
For what it's worth, I do agree with Franz: Good characters require a spark of soul or life to be real enough to me, and while the best writers can inflate a flat character without using something like that, I don't know how many of the folks in Eorzea can strive to that level. I've had my mood infect Warren and Warren's infect me, but I'm lucky enough to realize when that's happening most of the time.
There's nothing wrong with being invested. There's something dangerous, though, when it's the only thing you have to invest in.
RE: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts - Caspar - 03-04-2015
I agree. My life is pretty banal. I play to entertain myself, so in a sense even I'm guilty of escapism. I, however, try my best not to make my character resemble myself, so that I lack even the chance to blend, let alone the desire to. I think it is natural for people to indulge at least somewhat in escapism, and unrealistic to expect everyone to avoid it like the plague.
I mean, usually I want to tell the other player as little about myself as possible. I'd rather they not even recognize I exist and play with my character without worrying what I'd think. If there was something I was invested in, it's my desire to write certain scenes, and I almost always end up broadcasting those ideas to the people I play with. So there's still some tension between what I want and what the plot demands.
RE: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts - Hihimi - 03-04-2015
So the vibe I'm getting from this conversation is generally a negative one, and I'm going to bow the fuck out before I do something I regret.
RE: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts - Warren Castille - 03-04-2015
(03-04-2015, 03:22 PM)Hihimi Wrote: So the vibe I'm getting from this conversation is generally a negative one, and I'm going to bow the fuck out before I do something I regret.
I'm not sure I feel the same way as you do, but I also feel that difficult discussions are worth having and not inherently bad. If you feel strongly about this, this is the place to put it.
RE: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts - Jaliqai - 03-04-2015
I agree with a lot of the sentiments here, honestly. "Bleed", "blending", whatever you like to call it aren't inherently bad. When I'm RPing, I definitely experience some degree of it. When a scene has devastated my character, I hurt for them. When my character experiences joy, I'm happy for them.Â
In my opinion, there is little difference here between feeling evoked by RP and, say, crying at a particularly sad scene in a book or getting a stupid sappy grin on your face at the happy resolution of a romcom movie. You create a connection to the character(s), which is usually the point. These are all avenues of art meant to imitate life, and life is full of different emotions. If you don't feel anything, then.. Well, in my personal opinion that others may not share, the point has been missed.Â
But I think the problem isn't so much the bleed itself, but comes in when people have problems properly managing it. I'm not going to claim that I'm some paragon of this. I've made bleed mistakes before, and still do on occasion when I'm not careful. I've sat and cried after particularly sad scenes, and I've allowed a negative scene to put me into a bad mood that had been taken out on others around me.Â
It's largely about knowing your limits IRL, and when something has become so intense and real to you that you have to take a step backwards. This is especially true, I think, for people who play out scenes in both the Romance and/or Dark/Mature genres. You can apologize to someone for snapping when a scene leaves you in a bad mood or for having to walk away and stop crying in the middle of an RP with (usually) little fanfare from your partners. But romance bleed makes thing very emotionally complicated and awkward, and a dark/mature scene can have a serious, lasting, traumatic psychological effect on you.Â
So to sum up my two cents.. Emotion isn't bad in an RP. It's meant to evoke an emotional response, I think. You just have to be careful not to let it overwhelm and consume you.
RE: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts - Arelian - 03-04-2015
Escapism is only really a bad thing when it begins to effect how you perceive your actual reality. I'd say there's nothing inherently bad about wanting something to be different than it is. Hell, I'd go ahead and call that a good thing. The problem arises in roleplay, for example, when it's something less rooted in black and white (like your wheelchair and running example) and far more nebulous a quality.
For example, someone playing a "charming rogue" archetype when the reality is the person is nothing of the sort. It takes a certain amount of skill to write that kind of character and it's not infrequent that people grow frustrated when the perception of their character doesn't match up with their internal wishes for said character. That frustration tends to--as the article states--bleed into how you the person begins to interact with people on an OOC level. It's the difference between someone that's writing purely for a story they find interesting and writing to fulfill some kind of wish of theirs.Â
Roleplaying is a collaborative effort and you simply can't make things be true if you're unable to convince others of it. Another example: You want your character to be in a relationship with someone because you're seeking an escape from a potentially lonely reality. There's absolutely nothing wrong with seeking that kind of thing out until you start behaving differently when someone isn't interested in that character or if you take it as a personal slight. The number of people I've seen flip their goddamn lids at other people because they weren't interested in the character but still wished to remain OOC friends (or even an IC break up destroying OOC friendships) is absurd.
RE: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts - Verad - 03-04-2015
(03-04-2015, 02:35 PM)undefined Wrote: And... although I have no research to back this up I do feel that most RPers tend to RP for the "wrong" reasons, those reasons being disatisfaction with real life and low self esteem/self validation. It is why so many RPers are on the young side, and why so many more give up the hobby by the time they reach my age, and why bleed can be so devastating.
Well, at least you admit you're already probably wrong about it.
RE: "Bleed" - Article & Thoughts - Kismet - 03-04-2015
To extrapolate a bit on where I'm coming from on this, I believe that everyone has some portion of themselves in their roleplay characters. No matter how great or how infinitesimal that portion may be.
This isn't to say that if you RP a jerk that you are a jerk, too. But rather, your interpretation of how that jerky character should act is formed uniquely from your perspective. Putting your own spin on a character archetype is putting a piece of yourself into the character. Exploring the results of that is actually one of many reasons RP is so much fun.
However, everything I just described up there should not be confused with "bleed" or "blending".
When most RPers talk about blending, we're talking about negativity that is bred from doing so. We're talking about something that goes beyond escapism sometimes. People who either can't or have great difficultly separating fantasy from reality. To be fully immersed or invested is one thing. To use roleplay as a means to nurse some fragile obsessive need a person may have to be praised, desired, or vindicated... That's something else.