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Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - Printable Version

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RE: Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - Kellach Woods - 03-29-2015

(03-29-2015, 04:22 PM)Seriphyn Wrote: Rank-and-file infantry weren't known to be donned up in heavy armour, only knights and cavalry etc. Too expensive. Now, Brass Blades and Stone Torches too, probably because they have a lot of gil behind their owners.

Not the problem - even the higher ups of the Maelstrom do not wear armor, nor do the Immortal Flames and the Twin Adders if you take a look at what they offer. The point is - if even the people in the thick of it do not wear armor with the exception of the Sultansworn, maybe, just maybe, there is more to this decision than just the devs being dinks.

Hell, even the Armorer's guild is busier making ships than actual armor. That we even HAVE an armorer's guild is actually fairly weird considering how little full on armor is found.

Again, there's nothing preventing you from doing it. Like there's nothing preventing me from wearing a boar leather harness and still having a metric fuckton of stats and acting like boar leather caused a glancing blow from an Iron Giant sword.

Also, typically, RDM won't wear anything above medium armor. Think Leathers and Chains rather than the full plate regalia (chain + plate + more plate).

Another thing to keep in mind, full on plate mail got phased out at a point in history with tech that's even lower than Eorzea's, without even counting magic and other such things. I'm saying, if the use of game mechanics to justify why mages don't wear armor is what causes you to stop suspending your disbelief, I don't know what to say.

RE: Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - OverlordOutpost - 03-30-2015

One thing to consider

Certain metals may get in the way of aether flowing correctly for spell usage.  Yes; Paladins are in full plate mail, and yes they can cast healing spells.  Incredibly weak, underpowered healing spells.

We can make an assumption that, just like how some gemstones help with magic casting, certainly other materials can also aid or hinder it.  Magic casters who rely on a connection to their aether, or the elements, may have that connection weakened if they wear certain metallic armors. 

Inversely, some materials, such as certain types of imbued cloth, may strengthen this connection.

Garlean has some armor wearing mages, but those mages tend to be weak or entirely reliant on magitech for spell-casting rather than any natural propensity.

It's also worth noting that some of the more magitek-inspired items, such as the Ironworks equipment, or the High Allagan Armors, have far more metal in them.  Perhaps because they've found metals that don't hinder that connection in low quantities, or the Ironworks items use some magitek technology to keep that connection going.

---

Basically, this may be an issue of dense metals interfering with spell casting like a signal-jammer to a radio.  As we progress in the story and Eorzea becomes more skilled with magitek and rare metals, we may see more metallic, armor-like mage outfits.

Of course, I expect such things will still be rare.

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Worth noting, alloyed gildings are used in-game and in-lore to damped the effects of elemental magic.  You can see this in the Gilded Magitek Armor and in Summoner lore.

RE: Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - OverlordOutpost - 03-30-2015

Woops.

RE: Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - Aduu Avagnar - 03-30-2015

(03-30-2015, 12:09 AM)OverlordOutpost Wrote: One thing to consider

Certain metals may get in the way of aether flowing correctly for spell usage.  Yes; Paladins are in full plate mail, and yes they can cast healing spells.  Incredibly weak, underpowered healing spells.

We can make an assumption that, just like how some gemstones help with magic casting, certainly other materials can also aid or hinder it.  Magic casters who rely on a connection to their aether, or the elements, may have that connection weakened if they wear certain metallic armors. 

Inversely, some materials, such as certain types of imbued cloth, may strengthen this connection.

Garlean has some armor wearing mages, but those mages tend to be weak or entirely reliant on magitech for spell-casting rather than any natural propensity.

It's also worth noting that some of the more magitek-inspired items, such as the Ironworks equipment, or the High Allagan Armors, have far more metal in them.  Perhaps because they've found metals that don't hinder that connection in low quantities, or the Ironworks items use some magitek technology to keep that connection going.

---

Basically, this may be an issue of dense metals interfering with spell casting like a signal-jammer to a radio.  As we progress in the story and Eorzea becomes more skilled with magitek and rare metals, we may see more metallic, armor-like mage outfits.

Of course, I expect such things will still be rare.

---

Worth noting, alloyed gildings are used in-game and in-lore to damped the effects of elemental magic.  You can see this in the Gilded Magitek Armor and in Summoner lore.
However, we do have Sounssys post which does have Papalymo and Louisouix both wearing plate armour, albeit over small locations, so I don't think metal gets in the way that much.

Also take into account Monks. Who do manipulate Aether, albeit in a different manner to the mages, they also wear heavier armour than mages, (but lighter than tanks/Dragoons)

RE: Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - Marisa - 03-30-2015

(03-29-2015, 03:52 PM)undefined Wrote: Now then, I wanna talk Clerics, because it's the very thing that'd scratch your Mages-in-armor itch. Here's a typical Cleric, right here.

[Image: 200px-Cleric04.jpg]

Kinda kickass, right? Notice the orientation of gear towards a fully offensive stance, the use of a blunt weapon, and the total lack of fucks to give. So why don't we have these in the game? It's really a combination of the Devs wanting to stick to the tried and true Jobs of FF that were the most easily recognizable for players to choose from, and that giving Cleric Stance to WHMs and SCHs (and thus making them damage dealers as well as Healers, which is basically what a Cleric IS) kind of made the point of a true Cleric class/job in the game a moot one. Why spend all that time developing a Healer/Hinder dedicated class and all the gear, quests, etc. that goes along with it when Cleric Stance does the same thing while also adding a bit of micromanagement to the primary healing classes? You don't. That's silly.

Oh, you don't have to tell me about Clerics. That's my go-to class in any game. Which is why XIV can be so frustrating for me at times: It's literally the only mmo I've ever played seriously that lacks a cleric class. Hell, even The Old Republic had a cleric equivalent in the Imperial Operative, if you built them for healing.   

And I think a lot of it has to do with lack of class customization. In most games, either our paladin or bard jobs would have been able to specialize in healing, possibly both. But in XIV, a tank is a tank, and will always be a tank. And you know, I'm not gonna claim that one way is better than the other. How SE has it now certainly makes it easier to balance. What I hate is when people try to tell me "The jobs are the specializations, since you can have more than one." (Lookin' at you, Reddit) but no, that's not how that works. Completely changing classes is not the same as customizing a class. My other favorite thing they say is "If we had class customization, there would be one optimal choice so it's pointless" because despite they'll tell you all of SE's decisions are perfect, but they don't trust them to make a simple talent tree... 

Anyway, back on topic. Frankly, I'm more into aesthetics than anything else. Sure, I'd love to return to my old healing days when I could run up to the boss and smack it with my sword to get mana back between heals. As far as I'm concerned, there is literally no healer design better than that. However, I'd be almost as happy if I could just look the part. I mean, I'm already wearing Odin gloves and Darklight boots as a White Mage, and those are both plate armor. Yet while those are okay, I'm not allowed to wear a chailmail shirt because it would "break the mage aesthetic". Horse shit. Warriors are allowed to wear robes and wizard hats if they want to, and a lot of them do for funsies. But that perk only goes one way. Why is all of my gear marked "All Classes", while theirs is all "DoW Only"?   

And then I guess the last thing I want to rant about is Astrologians. The class looks... interesting, at least. Can't say if I like it or not, but it's intriguing. But let's be honest, thematically it's just halfway between a SCH and a WHM. They literally combine science and religion. I mean, apparently they also are mechanically halfway between a SCH and a WHM too, but I'm more forgiving of that. It's like, granted, Dark Knight is visually pretty similar to a Warrior, but everyone was asking for Dark Knight, so that's fine. Machinist is pretty new and interesting in the FFXIV scene, and there's currently nothing really like it. But the healing class was wide open. Nobody knew what to expect, everybody had different ideas on what it would be, we even thought it'd be a gun class for awhile, but SE had a million different ways they could have gone. I, in my foolishness, thought "Alright, everything's about Ishgard, we're getting really deep into Temple Knight lore in the MSQ, shit's about to go down with dragons... We're getting my goddamn cleric class!"  

Then the actual reveal happened, and this pretty well sums up my thoughts the moment I saw the picture. 
[Image: ytURqGy.jpg?3]

But I quickly rebounded! I realized, "Hey, those are the dudes over at the Observatorium! Every gear set may still be robes and wizard hats, but we'll get to learn about Halone, and the Enchiridion... go do quests in the Observatorium and stare at the sky while mumbling about dragons... it's gonna be awesome!"  

Oh, no no no no. See, healers aren't allowed to have anything cool in this game. Machinist? That's Ishgardian. Dark Knight? You can bet your Bahamut card that's gonna be linked to Ishgard. Astrologian? Obviously from Sharlayan, why would you ever think otherwise? (referenced from this, the only thing I've ever been mad at Koji for.) Apologies to anyone who's a huge fan of Sharlayan and super excited about this, just not huge on them myself. 

Anyway, feels good to get all that out. I know it was largely off topic and all over the place, and most of you will have very valid reasons to disagree with most of it, but it's nice just to have a place to yell about it every now and then.

RE: Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - OverlordOutpost - 03-30-2015

(03-30-2015, 01:34 AM)Nako Wrote: However, we do have Sounssys post which does have Papalymo and Louisouix both wearing plate armour, albeit over small locations, so I don't think metal gets in the way that much.

Also take into account Monks. Who do manipulate Aether, albeit in a different manner to the mages, they also wear heavier armour than mages, (but lighter than tanks/Dragoons)

Actually, I'm a bit curious of those myself, Papa and Louis' metallic armors are very oddly colored.  I'm theorizing that they possibly be made of special metal materials such as rose-gold, darksteel, or platinum.

RE: Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - Warren Castille - 03-30-2015

I'm a biased tank masterclass, but I'm content with the hard split. A pox of every single "melee red mage" and everyone who thinks like them.

RE: Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - Sounsyy - 03-30-2015

(03-30-2015, 09:14 AM)OverlordOutpost Wrote: Actually, I'm a bit curious of those myself, Papa and Louis' metallic armors are very oddly colored.  I'm theorizing that they possibly be made of special metal materials such as rose-gold, darksteel, or platinum.

There's actually lore on this - not specifically on Louisoix's sabatons (which are white, not sure what's an odd color about that?) - but on metals which conduct aether. This comes up a lot in the ALC and GSM storylines. There are very specific "weak" metals which conduct, amplify, or hinder aetheric energies.

These metals specifically are: Silver, Gold, Platinum, Electrum, and Rose-gold. These metals are noted as being too soft to make sturdy armor out of, but are effective for conducting aether, which is why you'll see circlets made from these metals, as well as grimoire ink, and sceptors. Also according to the GSM storyline, bones also make for decent, albeit arcane, aether conductors.

To go along with this, the BSM and ARM quests never have you working with any of these metals. Bronze, Iron, Steel, Mythril, Cobalt, Darksteel, and Wootz are thicker, stronger metals which make armor, ship parts, bridges, buildings, and all other manner of metalworks handled by Naldiq & Vymeli's. These metals have no aetherial properties.


Now, practical thinking could be applied here saying - well, what if I had a mythril set of armor and I coated it with gold leaf? Would that work? Lore says yes.

Quote:Gilded Magitek Armor
It only took a few heated skirmishes with the allied city-states for Garlemald to realize that the magicks wielded by the realm's mages were too much for even the thickest magitek armor plating. Alloyed gilding has since been discovered to dampen the effects of elemental charges and is now standard issue.


RE: Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - Gegenji - 03-30-2015

(03-30-2015, 11:32 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: Now, practical thinking could be applied here saying - well, what if I had a mythril set of armor and I coated it with gold leaf? Would that work? Lore says yes.

Quote:Gilded Magitek Armor
It only took a few heated skirmishes with the allied city-states for Garlemald to realize that the magicks wielded by the realm's mages were too much for even the thickest magitek armor plating. Alloyed gilding has since been discovered to dampen the effects of elemental charges and is now standard issue.

I should note that the gilding is being used to dampen the effects of magic. Whether it actually allows the user's magic to be bolstered as well has yet to be seen, considering it's being done by Garleans. And it just happens to be a golden-hued alloy, we don't know the actual contents of the gilding itself.

(That said, I could totally see "tinfoiling" one's armor for extra protection against magic, if one could afford it.)

RE: Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - Uninstalldotexe - 03-30-2015

I, myself, personally find the split between mages and heavy armor a fair way to balance out powerful spell slingers and in-your-face warriors who need the heavier armor. Typically, Magi were the world benders, using their magic to do all the heavy lifting and whatever else their imagination and skill would allow them to undertake. A capable wizard had no real need for armor as they could use spells to protect them. Even Battle Mages mostly eschew armor but still wore some but usually had more limited casting ability.

D&D spell casters get an inherent chance to fail at casting spells because they are wearing armor, somatic or not. The weight burden and awkwardness of the armor made it very hard to do even everyday things like carrying items, climbing, swimming, etc, that an Adventurer would do. You, the Magi, spent time cloistered in your tower or portable dimension to study and master the planes around you in lieu of training your body to get used to armor. I think thats fair considering all the sweet spells and abilities a mage/wizard can learn and do. You could take a feat to be proficient in armor but from an optimizing standing point, your feat is best spent on something else, and from a RP standpoint, is cool because you adding depth to your character. Infact, you are limiting maximum casting potential in favor of defensive in the form of physical armor.

Final Fantasy is it's own entity when it comes to, well, fantasy, and never followed the more traditional fantasy elements and only adopted some elements. Also, we need to realize it's a video game made for entertainment. The game and character design are all made to influence us to try this class, or grind for that magitek gear. DRK casting spells are probably going to be of personal nature when buffing and offensive in nature for some damage and threat capability going by what I read thus far. Though, you can bet that it will be nothing like what a BLM could do. You won't see DRK teleporting outside of Aetherytes like BLM can. No large aetheric bomb is going to magically pop out of the sky to burninate all the things. Monks train their body and have chakra which comes from themselves internally, so I don't really see armor inhibiting them. I never played a Red Mage or pretend to have knowledge on how they play but I'm sure they have limited spells they can cast. I'm sure they wont be fast casting Flare, Holy, etc but will we able to wear some kind of armor.

So, do what you want as I'm no authority nor is anyone else but I do ask that you have some personal responsibility with your character to balance them out. You want to wear a full plate as a mage? Cool, but have more than personality quirks, like "Oh, she's shy and will probably never get in combat," to justify being able operate like a mage or wizard not using heavy armor. Limit your casting, limit your mobility, make that heavy plate really worth it.

RE: Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - OverlordOutpost - 03-30-2015

(03-30-2015, 11:32 AM)Sounsyy Wrote:
(03-30-2015, 09:14 AM)OverlordOutpost Wrote: Actually, I'm a bit curious of those myself, Papa and Louis' metallic armors are very oddly colored.  I'm theorizing that they possibly be made of special metal materials such as rose-gold, darksteel, or platinum.

There's actually lore on this - not specifically on Louisoix's sabatons (which are white, not sure what's an odd color about that?) - 

Yeah, the pure whiteness and gold linings of the armor make me think it's made of one of those GSM metals, and not BSM/ARM materials.


On that note, tinfoiling armor with gilding for an anti-mage battler sounds like a pretty cool idea.

RE: Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - Aya - 03-30-2015

So Final Fantasy is not just like Dungeons and Dragons... I consider this a good thing!

Sometimes I find myself wishing to play a "divine spell caster" in Dungeons and Dragons based games, and its really not possible without simply ignoring half of your classes intended capability.  Variety isn't a bad thing, and its very true to Final Fantasy flavor going all the way back to the original game.

RE: Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - Sounsyy - 03-30-2015

(03-30-2015, 11:42 AM)Gegenji Wrote: I should note that the gilding is being used to dampen the effects of magic. Whether it actually allows the user's magic to be bolstered as well has yet to be seen, considering it's being done by Garleans. And it just happens to be a golden-hued alloy, we don't know the actual contents of the gilding itself.

(That said, I could totally see "tinfoiling" one's armor for extra protection against magic, if one could afford it.)

Hell, it could be like FF8's Junction system for all we know. Equip Fire spell to your armor slot, gain Fire and Magic resist. Equip Fire spell to your sword, gain Fire damage.

Coat your armor in gold, dampens magic against you. Coat your grimoire in gold, amplify your magic.

Who knows. All I'm saying is there's a pretty specific subdivide for metals used for armoury and metals used for aetherial conduction with little-to-no cross over between the two. Garleans coat their armor in "gold" to dampen Eorzean mages after that BLM in the End of an Era trailer totally annihilated those Garleans with one Fire III.

But the armor metals: Bronze, Iron, Steel, Mythril, Cobalt, Darksteel, and Wootz have no aetherial properties and shouldn't hinder spellcasting, from a technical standpoint. If you want to play with gilding or coating your armor with aetherial enhancing metals, go Silver, Gold, Platinum, Electrum, or Rose-gold, but note that these metals are far too soft to make armor on their own. They'd need to be coated on top of a stronger metal, or mixed (though, I'm not an expert on metallurgy, but I think that would actually weaken the end product right?) together.

RE: Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - Melodia - 03-30-2015

(03-30-2015, 12:35 PM)Aya Wrote: So Final Fantasy is not just like Dungeons and Dragons... I consider this a good thing!
*Notes Aya likes D&D.....swoons*

Thumbsup

RE: Rant: Mages, Cuirass, and Trends - Zyrusticae - 03-30-2015

(03-29-2015, 04:18 PM)Ckayah Polaali Wrote: It frankly doesn't bother me one whit. Not for historical reasons, nor for "It seems as if" reasons, but for game design reasons.

Mages in MMOs are powerful. They have very strong ranged damage dealing (hello Black Mage!) or healing powers that allows them to play with devastating effect. Tanks, on the other hand, largely focus on being able to soak damage, and their use of heavy armor with it's powerful damage mitigation compliments this. For the same reason that White Mages have crap damage dealing abilities (to avoid the "I can do it all, hahahaha!" syndrome), mages in this game (and most MMOs) are limited in the armor they can use. High damage/heals at range? That's powerful. Counter it by making them fragile? That balances them against the other classes. If your Black Mage could wear Dragoon's armor and do Dragoon-levels of damage from anywhere on the map without worrying about positioning or being hit by the AOEs around a monster, why would anyone play a Dragoon? If a White Mage could clank around in Paladin's armor and simply keep aggro with their massive self-heal while letting the damage mitigation of the armor keep the incoming damage low enough to let them live, why would anyone play a Paladin or Warrior?

That's why RPGs and MMOs handwave odd restrictions like this. Not because they think that's the way it actually would be, but because they have to balance the game so that it's fun for everyone. The current setup, while not perfect, provides a solid mechanic that relies on well-balanced parties with well-balanced roles in order to succeed at the tougher content.
This reasoning is specious at best.

Two things to note:
1. Plate armor in this game does NOT have any caster-specific stats. If a BLM decided to wear a full set of plate armor they would be absolutely gimping their damage output in exchange for a very marginal increase in survivability
2. Cross-class skills in this game are extremely limited, and a BLM or WHM has no permanent method of damage mitigation. Note that a LOT of a tank's survivability comes from their high base VIT and their tanking stances with bonus HP+healing and damage reduction, in addition to secondary temporary buffs. Plate armor is only a small (very, very small) part of that. Just because a WHM could wear plate and hold aggro with Cure III doesn't mean they'd be good enough to tank in place of an actual tank.

TBH, I think the gear restrictions are an anachronism and completely unnecessary given how the game functions. Each job is hard-locked into their role; there is not nearly enough ability versatility via cross-classing to allow any job to step outside of their role. If things like Shield Oath and Defiance were cross-class-able, yes, this would be an issue, but since they are not, it is completely unnecessary to restrict gear choices for any reason outside of class visual differentiation (a reason that is quickly becoming entirely moot with the number of people wearing all-class glamours to battle), and maybe to get people to GRIND MOAR because they can't share gear between DRG/NIN/MNK/WAR/PLD. Obviously, I think both of these reasons are weaksauce and would much prefer to be able to glamour my gear to look however I want it to look, regardless of whether it suits the "flavor" of the class or not.