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+--- Thread: The Glamour of It All! (/showthread.php?tid=12106)
RE: The Glamour of It All! - Lilia Lia - 06-17-2015
I sometimes wonder at the extent to which we're supposed to accept the Hildebrand quests as lore. Some pretty ridiculous stuff happens in them. Isn't his "nigh invincibility" and the existence of fashion-crazed zombies enough to clue you off to them just being a little bit of fun?
RE: The Glamour of It All! - Erik Mynhier - 06-17-2015
(06-17-2015, 12:56 PM)Gegenji Wrote:(06-17-2015, 12:42 PM)Erik Mynhier Wrote: I kind of look to Lilia as they already said what is bugging me about the whole glamour route. For me isn't the issue of glamour itself, even done poorly, SE sort of dropped this race on our laps and said "Here you go". My issue is the "all glamours fail friday" thing. But I'm not going to stress it.
A big issue for rpers is sometimes the game catches you and paints you into a corner. Sometimes the strictest of rpers needs to just understand that a campy rp to explain some curve ball just has to be given a pass. The rper isnt a bad rper, they just have no good options and we just have to help them get through it. Its not anyone's fault or anything, this happens in all mmos where rp is done whenever something new is added. Like Aya said its best to try and not look at the macro-change of it, just stay focused on the players case by case and let the rp be decided by those involved.
Understandable, but the "I'm a glamoured Au Ra" more or less served as an impetus for me to wonder just what a glamour can and cannot do in a more general sense. How realistic it looks, whether it extends to sound and smell, and the overall difficulty in both performing the glamour and dispelling them... that sort of thing. And, of course, if what some NPCs do during the course of the game is a glamour at all or something much more powerful and form-altering.
Void based glamour like on imps seems to be fragile. Smells and lights can even dis-spell them. The dragons seem to be able to hold different forms with some stability. And I seem to remember the NIN quests showed glamour as in quick costume change.
The problem is that SE gave us more questions then answers when it came to glamour. Just enough to let us do it and know it isn't meta.... but not enough to know the how and why.
RE: The Glamour of It All! - Spethah - 06-17-2015
Septha is an illusionist, not only in the sense of making objects look like something else but to make people see things that really aren't there at all. I've always set it that Septha requires concentration in order to produce large scale illusions, such as a giant goobbue, and that distracting her in any manner would break that illusion. Yes, hitting her or breaking her focus in other means will break that illusion.Â
I would like to say the same for glamours themselves. You can turn armour into a dress, but the sound will be there and simply whacking the armour is of course going to damage the image if not outright destroy the illusion itself. In the case of an Au Ra glamouring, I would see some restrictions. First, they cannot be a tall as hell Au Ra male and glamour into a lalafell as logically (oh no I said the L word) showing something smaller means the larger hidden object is going to be like an invisible wall. They would still sound as smell the same as well, since a glamour is only a visual thing. If the Au Ra isn't all familiar with Eorzean culture they would also look and act odd, referencing the odd glamour people you dispel during the Sylph Beast Tribe quests.
In short, glamours are not flawless like people think they are. It's merely a visual appearance that really is easy to break considering how little effort is used to hold that image (prism, tiny bits of magic with little channeling).
As for the Dravanians, I thinks that's polymorphing and not glamours if we're talking about those heretics that turn into dragons and shit like that. They're legitimately casting to shed off their "skin" and become something else that's tangible and dangerous.
RE: The Glamour of It All! - Spiritual Machine - 06-17-2015
I'm just going to play it like most of the disguised Au Ra were just really paranoid. Unless some actual, canonical reason is given why there are suddenly Au Ra when there previously weren't, it's safest to assume they were just a rarity, like Duskwights and male Miqo'te, rather than formulate some kind of headcanon to explain ALL Au Ra.
As for Glamours in general, I'm not sure how our understanding of them managed to get so complicated. They seem to consistently be full-body illusions that don't stand up to extended use. If they were only visual, they would be a lot easier to break, and if they were more reliable, they'd be used more conventionally and would be seen to break less.
RE: The Glamour of It All! - Zyrusticae - 06-17-2015
As far as armour glamours go.... I tend to pretend they don't even exist. Makes no difference to me because I play by 'heroic laws of reality' in which armor is just there to look nice and occasionally dramatically avert a deadly blow rather than something that is absolutely required for survivability in combat. My character in particular tends not to wear much in the way of protection at all, unless she's specifically gearing up for a job that demands it. I don't explain it away as glamours, even though I'm actually using glamours in-game - she's just actually running around with her vitals exposed because that's just the kind of person she is.
(06-17-2015, 12:49 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: It's either that or we say they've always been here which comes with, way, way more problems and chaos.And yet this is what canon is going with, judging by how the WoL could have been an Au Ra all along and no one bats an eyelash.
Personally, that's what I'm going with, though I find it profoundly silly for people to be RPing as Au Ra in-game before they're even released because of the aforementioned lore problems with people glamouring themselves and all of that jazz. It's just so much trouble for something that doesn't really seem to add much to one's RP.
RE: The Glamour of It All! - Lilia Lia - 06-17-2015
(06-17-2015, 01:28 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: And yet this is what canon is going with, judging by how the WoL could have been an Au Ra all along and no one bats an eyelash.
We can't really presume that nobody bats an eyelash. The story does contain alternative dialogue on the basis of character jobs and grand company, for example. They may pepper in some proverbial eyelash-batting.
RE: The Glamour of It All! - Magellan - 06-17-2015
I really don't think there can be a general consensus on glamours or fantasias. They are too volatile and disruptive within many people's rp to be considered as server wide canon.
I think it's a case by case basis of who's willing to accept what. I am very thankful none of my characters have to deal with a 'surprise, I'm an Au ra!' But I don't begrudge people for doing what they want to do.
If they want to arbitrarily change their character into a new race, fine. If they have valid reasons for it; even better.
But IC actions have IC consequences, and they should be prepared for IC confusion, Â disbelief, and even estrangement, as many people do not play glamours or fantasias as well known, readily available, or even existent.
Playing a machinist before the technology reached Eorzea would have raised a lot of eyebrows, just as having been a race all along that just recently got chased out of their homeland and into eorzea will do the same thing.
Again people should do what they want, but there will likely be a lot of IC confusion and odd interactions in the weeks immediately following HW
RE: The Glamour of It All! - Arik - 06-17-2015
Having only just joined the game about a month ago and started assembling stuff for an IC Au Ra Main, I can definitely say that all of the Glamour talk and apparent use really confused me at first. For a time, I even considered it myself; though that was more out of impatience for wanting to get involved in RP. But I never could really get myself comfortable with the idea when I couldn't find a whole lot of information supporting glamours as a reliable and more importantly widely available tool on an IC basis. (Outside of armor glamours and the bits and pieces I've encountered in leves.) It only made matters worse that the character I have in mind is hardly magic-centric, nor is he in any way 'subtle.' I eventually resigned myself to focusing on leveling/MSQs and just being patient -- though, trust me, I'm practically vibrating in my seat the closer we get to Friday.
It kind of amazes me though that so many people are comfortable with playing this race already when it hasn't even been fully released yet and canonical information is still so limited. Maybe I'm just a lore-junky and the sort who likes to have a relatively established backstory rather than making it up as I go, but I've already found myself compelled to find IC ways to disconnect Verik from his 'traditional' Au Ra brethren, if only to help explain any discrepancies between what I write for him and what we eventually learn to be true Au Ra customs/culture/etc (at least for certain things that I can't be easily fluid about and change along the way).
I'm not saying there's anything technically wrong with playing the race now-- I'm sure there are plenty of people who are doing so wonderfully already-- all I'm saying is that those who do are braver and much more easy-going in regards to continuity than I.
I think there might be something to be said regarding the excitement that comes with playing a race that is "only just emerging" on a large scale in canon story. In a way, it's almost like there's a competition to see who can be the first to garner the "holy crap" reactions that are bound to happen when other characters see an Au Ra for the first time. Alternatively, I think there might be a certain appeal in being able to say that your character was one of the first and one of the few of their kind on Eorzea pre-expansion. I can't help but wonder if that was part of why so many people flocked to the idea of using "glamours" as a way to jumpstart that sort of angle. But it starts to lose its meaning when so many other people are doing the same thing.
In the end though, it's RP and we do it to have fun. if someone else wants to use the fantasia/glamour device in order to have fun in their RP, then all the more power to them. I just hope that if they are already established characters in the community that they do some OOC legwork on behalf of those they play with to be sure the partners who may be affected by the choice are on board and have something of a say in how it's done.
RE: The Glamour of It All! - Gegenji - 06-17-2015
(06-17-2015, 01:58 PM)Magellan Wrote: Playing a machinist before the technology reached Eorzea would have raised a lot of eyebrows, just as having been a race all along that just recently got chased out of their homeland and into eorzea will do the same thing.
Mm, not so much. There's been plenty of RP with folks using guns (and even finagling with Magiteknology) since the technically already existed and were accessible to some degree - Merlwyb uses a pair of pistols, and the THF quest line added a gun-toting Lala. Just like there have been fortune tellers who look like they're picking up AST because it fits the aesthetic for something they're already bplaying. Not to mention there have been plenty of other folks playing their characters close to other, non-existent classes - Spellblades, Sages, and I even play a FFTA-style Judge with... err... Judge and Chachan is kinda Samurai-esque.
There's a less... suspension of disbelief, I suppose, needed for someone having picking up a gun at some point and using it over suddenly becoming a whole new race. The latter requires more explanation - changing into it due to shenanigans with magic, body-swapping, and so on... or the "we were in disguise" route. And, since this is a relatively new thing, retconning that they've been covering up the entire time sounds messier than just saying they were glamoured the entire time.
Which is what brought the whole glamour situation to the forefront of my mind, and thus the creation of this thread.
RE: The Glamour of It All! - Gone. - 06-17-2015
(06-17-2015, 12:55 PM)Graeham Wrote: I don't think it's 'insignificant' for a character to wake up one day and suddenly find out that they've been a completely different race all along. Or if they're aware of it, for their friends to find out that they're not what they said they were.
There's also some unfortunate implications as to why such things aren't mass produced/wielded by those in positions of power if every Tom, Dick and Harry can apparently acquire the means to disguise themselves on a long term basis without any real drawbacks.
I just wish more role-players were honest and just outright stated that they're no longer interested in playing their current race and want to play the fancy new race and retain everything about their existing character in the process. That's essentially what it seems to come down to in many cases.
Who said anything about someone waking up to a new body unexpectedly? I don't know of anyone rolling Au Ra in Heavensward that hasn't had things planned for months now, if not created and/or reinvisioned a character specifically for it. That is by all means insignificant, especially when Yugiri's reveal was more or less "Oh, okay."
Also keep in mind that our roleplayed PCs are still a minority. We're not talking every NPC having access to illusionary magic and the like, so why act like it's common when it's not?
And no, plenty of people have been up-front about it. That people are still surprised two days away from early access is honestly baffling.
(06-17-2015, 01:28 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Personally, that's what I'm going with, though I find it profoundly silly for people to be RPing as Au Ra in-game before they're even released because of the aforementioned lore problems with people glamouring themselves and all of that jazz. It's just so much trouble for something that doesn't really seem to add much to one's RP.
Just because it isn't important to you doesn't mean it isn't important to them. Had Au Ra been here from the beginning, I'm about 99% sure I'd have rolled one to begin with. I bet most people will tell you the same thing. Ultimately it's a personal choice that no one should be harassed or shunned for and I honestly can't believe our community is still making a big deal out if this; it isn't and will never be so please, move on.
RE: The Glamour of It All! - Aya - 06-17-2015
Generally speaking "classes" do a poor job of fully describing the limits of available professions, skills, and employment for characters. Since there are people who use guns, who use mechanics (we have trains of some sort in Thanalan don't we?) and magitechnology, the lack of a class that features these skills is not really considered a good reason for refusing to acknowledge the existence of those who do. The same goes for an almost infinite number of other areas both combat and non-combat.
Races tend to be a much more exclusive quantity. Either a race exists, and is part of the world, or it doesn't, and isn't. Au Ra weren't. Now they will be. That's jarring.
Someone going from being a gun-wielder in RP to also being a gun-wielder in PvE? That just doesn't matter, at least not to me
RE: The Glamour of It All! - Spiritual Machine - 06-17-2015
One of the biggest differences between Eorzea and the real world is that Eorzeans are not living in a digital age, where news and information from across the realm are readily available to all. There is plenty about each region of Eorzea that we don't know--and can't know--because our characters don't possess the shared and stored knowledge of every person who lives in every corner of it. Even in a big city, a few rumors here and there will only scratch the surface of everything there would be to know and see if the citizens had iPhones.
What I'm saying is, from your perspective the Au Ra just "appeared". From your perspective Rogues just "appeared" as well.
I heard a rumor that a Mammol Ja regularly visits a butcher's stall in West Hawker's Alley to buy enough raw blood sausage to feed a small army. I also heard the Mammol Ja tribes have been becoming increasingly interested in the Arcanist's Guild for reasons unknown. And hey, I heard they hired some dancers at the Gold Saucer who have horns instead of ears and hail from the Far East.
Can you believe that?
RE: The Glamour of It All! - Gegenji - 06-17-2015
(06-17-2015, 02:10 PM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Also keep in mind that our roleplayed PCs are still a minority. We're not talking every NPC having access to illusionary magic and the like, so why act like it's common when it's not?
I suppose that's another debatable topic regarding glamour. If we consider armor glamour to basically be nothing more an OOC meta-way to make your character look like you want, then perhaps ICly the five races don't actually have access to casting glamours at all. Perhaps the capability is solely in the hands of the Sylphs and Voidsent?
Well, outside those who specialize in illusionary magic like Septha or the Hildebrand villain.
So that adds a nuance to the list of questions I have for glamours. Realism, if it affects senses other than just sight, and the difficulty at obtaining/casting if it's accessibly ICly at all.
RE: The Glamour of It All! - Lilia Lia - 06-17-2015
(06-17-2015, 02:26 PM)Spiritual Machine Wrote: One of the biggest differences between Eorzea and the real world is that Eorzeans are not living in a digital age, where news and information from across the realm are readily available to all. There is plenty about each region of Eorzea that we don't know--and can't know--because our characters don't possess the shared and stored knowledge of every person who lives in every corner of it. Even in a big city, a few rumors here and there will only scratch the surface of everything there would be to know and see if the citizens had iPhones.
Add to this the fact that most Eorzeans are illiterate and there is no public education system in any of the three city-states.
RE: The Glamour of It All! - Aaron - 06-17-2015
The "Im and Au Ra all along." Bit doesn't really bother me. . . But if you think about it it really just seems like a half assed reason to be one OOC.
Spends many a months rping a regular race without a hint of something glamour -> hears lizard people on the Tele -> wants it -> suddenly one day IC decides to say im a Au Ra in glamour
I wonder what'll happen when another race ever gets entered thats different from the existing, are you suddenly a glamoured race X too when a few months ago you were a glamoured Au Ra?