+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: When is a character too skilled? (/showthread.php?tid=13278)
RE: When is a character too skilled? - Flickering Ember - 09-03-2015
(09-03-2015, 03:33 PM)Corelyn Wrote: In my opinion, there are a lot of factors that can come into play here.
Skill Similarity:
How similar are these skills? For example, a warrior and a dark knight may find far more ease in switching between one another's skill sets, both using similar weapons.
On the other hand, a paladin may have trouble balancing both her martial arts and, for example, summoning, the two being absolutely nothing alike.
Combination and Cross-Class Skills:
Especially in FFXIV, we have a system of "cross-class skills," essentially allowing us to borrow skills and styles from other classes. The way this would, in the most extreme sense, translate to RP that essentially hybridizes a person's chosen class or skill set. However, this can both detract from and support the individual as a whole, because while they may focus on one "hybrid" skill set, they may neglect elements from the primary. A gladiator who shares skills with a rogue, for example, might wield a longsword in one hand and a dagger in the other. Similarly, a machinist that wields a gunblade, fighting in both close and mid-to-long range. Both examples will have places in which they excel greatly, but others in which they may fall short because of neglect from the non-shared aspects of combined skill sets.
Physical vs. Intellectual:
Is the character an Adonis? An Einstein? Or a combination of both? A character may train themselves to be the pinnacle of physical perfection and skill, yet that leaves little time to pursue the magical or intellectual arts. Similarly, a character who spends all their time immersed in books, magic, and the like may not be the best physical fighter in the world.
Age:
Age provides a very interesting bell curve to this equation. As a character ages, they gain invaluable experience and knowledge of their chosen skills and abilities. With time, a young person can become not only wiser but stronger. However, at the peak of this bell curve, there is little room for further improvement through age alone, as most (though not all, admittedly) people decline as age goes on, in mind, body, or both.
Nature vs. Nurture:
Are these skills they were trained in explicitly? Or do have they mastered a style all their own? This can add into age, as well, as either can take more time or be more difficult.
The Skill of Skill:
Just how skilled is this person at learned their skills? Often referred to, especially in interviews as being a "quick learner," this means a character can understand, grasp, advance, and master said skills.
Time Investment:
How much does this character keep up on each skill? Do they even have the time? While this could tie in with "The Skill of Skill," which can make some characters able to pick up and drop certain styles, skills, and other things as though they are second nature, this is a rare ability, and the more skills to which one tries to apply this ability, the more rare and unreliable it can become. This stands to reason that if a character who, for example, does not spend all his time fighting, but attempts to be a fighter proficient in as many of the physical disciplines as he can, he will begin to grow "rusty" over time.
Spotlight Syndrome:
An important question to ask is why does this character have so many skills? Many people try to make their character as multi-faceted as possible, but this can oftentimes detract from others' enjoyment, making their roles feel threatened by a character perceived as potentially omnipotent in their range of skills. This can lead to all kinds of resentment, misunderstandings, and the like.
Suspension of Disbelief and Group Mentality:
This is purely subjective. Some people like to apply this factor, and some do not. Realism in my vidja gaymez? HOW DARE YOU! However, many people like to use this as a "balancing" factor to make sure that everyone involved can have fun and contribute, preventing Spotlight Syndrome. This level of "realism" that people desire, and often, use as a point of judgement for others (fearing godmode, powerplaying, or the like out of inexperienced, naive, or simply just "bad" roleplayers) can vary wildly between one person and the next. It is for this reason that it is important to know your audience, as well as your peers in any given situation. While no one likes to subscribe to another's system of belief, it's always best, especially in these events, to find a happy medium and go with that. If you need to tone down or buff up your character so everyone can have a good time, even for a single RP scene, then don't be afraid to do so.
tl;dr, there are so many factors that can go into learning, practising, and mastering multiple skill sets that it's really a far more complicated question than "how much" or "why". Many of these principles are situational, so the most important factor is to be ready to adapt to others, ready to communicate where everyone's boundaries will fall and how to compromise and negotiate them, and how to judge what best suits your character, both realistically and logically from many different angles.
Quoting this for emphasis.Â
In my opinion, it would be better to read through this post and consider these factors rather than restrict your character to 'okay my character can only be good at one or two things or a jack of all trades.'Â
It's a bit more complicated than that, as this post highlights.
RE: When is a character too skilled? - Harknezz - 09-03-2015
I like all these answers, but really to me, it's putting way too much thought into it.
In my opinion, if done right, no amount of skill makes your character too skilled. It's all about balance. For every new bit of power you gain in the world, you need a weakness.Â
There are all of these super powerful things you could RP as, and sometimes the experience RPing those things can be wonderful, IF DONE WELL. Note I said well, and not correctly, as there are loads of ways to do it. But the RP of those powerful beings could bring alot to stories of others, and could bring about unique challenges of their own.
It all plays into balance. IF you wanna be a god among mortals, then you need to have flaws of some sort, no one is perfect. Even the myths of gods told about their negative qualities, like hubris. These are the kind of things that can lead to a David vs the Goliath kind of story, and can make an amazing story for people to watch and be involved in.
RE: When is a character too skilled? - ZacharyVolfire - 09-03-2015
THIS POST HAS BEEN MY BANE WHEN WORKING OVER MY MAIN CHARACTER'S WIKI FOR THE PAST 2 MONTHS.
I role play my character as a handy man. Capable yet limited. I dont want someone whos perfect in any situatuion. Yet he has experience to know how to do something right and wrong. And can be advised but also has room to learn. He worked as a ship wright so he has experience in several crafting fields but not enough for him to craft a perfect sword or anything. As long as there is a way for your character to be defeated then that limitation alone keeps you from being 'too strong'
RE: When is a character too skilled? - Cassandra - 09-03-2015
For me, it's whether their skills are properly justified. If say, you intend to portray a character whose a renowned swordsmen, then I would expect to instances within their history that reflect how they perfected this particular art. It doesn't have to some elaborate tale or a bullet point reference to every little activity they have ever partaken in. Just enough to suspend my disbelief. In this sense, I'm less concerned with people who want to play a prodigy of some sort, but rather how they go about doing so.Â
Of course, this is all relative, given even the most reasoned backstory can get carried away at times. Suffice it to say, as long as the character is interesting, I'm pretty lenient.
RE: When is a character too skilled? - Verad - 09-03-2015
Ten. The correct number of skills is ten.
RE: When is a character too skilled? - Aya - 09-03-2015
(09-03-2015, 06:56 PM)Verad Wrote: Ten. The correct number of skills is ten.Unless you've been in a couple of arcs already ^^
RE: When is a character too skilled? - Caspar - 09-03-2015
Godai Yusuke has, in his motto, "2000 skills." He must be op, even for a Kamen Rider.
RE: When is a character too skilled? - Nero - 09-03-2015
It's really the same discussion as "when is a character overpowered", and the answer I find is roughly the same: a character is too overpowered or too skilled when they can no longer be meaningfully challenged or defeated by a narrative, and/or when other player characters are no longer interested in engaging in conflict with them.
Take, for example, classic comic book hero Superman. A lot of people find the concept of Superman laughable: how can anyone find the story of an almost totally invincible, handsome, charismatic demigod with no drawbacks to his powers be compelling? After all, we're talking about a protagonist who can literally fly into the sun and prevent it from emitting too much solar radiation.
It's because for all of Superman's omnipotence, he still has weaknesses and mortality. That's not all, though. It's not a matter of simply having flaws or weaknesses to balance excessive power or skill, though; it's a matter of making the effects of those flaws or weaknesses have significance, effect or meaningful consequence on the character. One of the most widely acclaimed Superman arcs is about how Superman is faced with his impending and inevitable death, and explores how a character who is so used to being practically omnipotent deals with such a fate.
A character is a master crafter who can literally fabricate anything imaginable. What's his flaw? Maybe no social skills leads to complete isolation that lends itself to bouts of depression that seriously impede his or her work.
A character is literally an un-defeatable combatant; his or her skills in battle are so great that they are capable of warping the reality around them so that said character can win. What's that character's flaw? Life has no meaning and there is nothing else this character can do but fight.
Make a character's weaknesses have real, observable detriment to them and how they live with little to no benefit. Do that convincingly, and it doesn't matter how powerful or skilled your character is.
RE: When is a character too skilled? - Caspar - 09-03-2015
One thing I like to think about when it comes to proficiency in a skill is what they had to give up to become so good at their area of focus. Did they sacrifice years of their life, social interaction, love, money, social prestige? These things won't just come back; the character made a deliberate decision to be the best at what they do, and is working towards it, but if they are young or old, they had to give up something to get something in return, I feel. When I make a character whose proficiency in specifically one thing is great above all else, I try to think about how that focus has harmed them over the years, and what consequences it will have for them in the presence and future.
Obviously it doesn't need to be this extreme, but to me, larger than life characters sometimes need to reach that self-destructive level of dedication so few real individuals in the world actually are willing to attempt. A more normal person in real life might have a very large variety of skills that they are slightly skilled at, and that's definitely a more natural spread of talents and expertise. However "honing an inborn talent to its extreme, no matter what it is" is an idea I feel is central to my character and NPCs in her background. It allows me to help articulate the story I want to, more or less, which is generally my motivation for doing anything rp wise.
RE: When is a character too skilled? - Imo - 09-05-2015
(09-03-2015, 03:18 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: One of my pet peeves in RP forum discussions is the weird idea that it is realistic for characters to not be able to specialize in more than one skill/combat style.
Don't you know? There's only one undeniably true way to measure the quality of your roleplaying: the less powerful your character is, the better of a roleplayer you are. Nothing else matters. And if your character is anything more special than a moderately skilled sellsword in battered old mail, you might as well be roleplaying Naruto.
Final Fantasy? What's Final Fantasy? I thought this is called Game of Thrones Online.
RE: When is a character too skilled? - Diskwrite - 09-05-2015
You know, this isn't really a question I concern myself too much about. Often enough, I'll play it by ear. I try to give the impression, based on the skillsets of the people around her, where my character stands in comparison to them. But even though I picture her as one of the strongest people around, that doesn't mean she can just wrestle anyone into submission.
It's a balancing game, and the ways I show her strengths and weaknesses change depending on who I'm playing with. Because in the end, roleplay is about mutual storytelling. Not making my character out to be the most powerful person in the room.
I think, as long as you keep that at the forefront of your mind, this really isn't a big deal. Your character might be one of the best at what they do, sure, but there's always a bigger fish.
RE: When is a character too skilled? - allgivenover - 09-05-2015
I find it more believable that a person could be pretty good at several things rather than an amazing expert of a single thing.
I feel like the motivation, talent, and innovative creativity necessary to go from "pretty good" at something to "amazing expert" is a huge gap compared to say... going from "novice" to "pretty good".
RE: When is a character too skilled? - arkamas - 09-05-2015
I'd say so long as you can justify their level of skill in something, along with a fairly appropriate amount of time to reach that skill level in their backstory. Â For instance: my main Fyrilsunn grew up amongst tradesmen. Â He was apprenticed to his father, a shipwright, and learned that trade to at least a journeyman level, before taking up the roll as a privateer ships carpenter for nearly thirteen years, Â which he adapts into a superb understanding of carpentry and woodworking. He also spent a good amount of time with his grandfather in the forge, and knows the basics of most metalcrafts, though he could never compare to an actual tradesman in the field. Â
Then throw in the fact that he's been aboard a privateer vessel for most of his adult life, swinging a battleaxe, followed by five years a high risk adventurer, he's been fighting for nealry 17 years. You don't live that long without either a good amount of luck, a good amount of skill, or a hefty dosage of both. Â
I dont feel like he's too skilled, but then again, he's only TRULY masterful at two things. Â He's just a fair amount of latent talent in the crafting department that he never gets to tap into.
Furthermore, there is the idea that once you reach a certain point of mastery in something, the lines of how skilled you are get blurry. Can you compare the works of Raphael and Michelangelo? They where both brilliant, but who was more so?
In short... its okay to be extremely skilled. Your character can be good, he could be one of the best. But how can you tell he IS the best? Just dont make him so at litteraly everything. Characters without some flaws are boring.
RE: When is a character too skilled? - Paradox - 09-06-2015
I think I'm one of the only people that doesn't care how skilled or unskilled anyone's character is, as long as they don't shove their roleplay standards in my face. Ie, the 'your character is too strong/too this/too etc so you're a mary sue/special snowflake/so edgy' or other condescending crap that tends to come out of the mouths of people who think they're the resident RP experts. I don't care if your character is a god among men, or a fumbling beginner, an expert in one field or an expert in ten. Admittedly I like certain styles of RP others may not. But if your character interests me in other areas than the ones I'm prone to dislike, I will play with that character because interest is fluid. If your character is better, harder, stronger faster than mine..who gives a rat's ass? I think people get far too hung up on how powerful other people's characters are because they don't want to have a diminished sense of usefulness by choosing to play someone who isn't as skilled. But at the end of the day, that's just the rub isn't it? Personal choice. You chose to play someone who isn't powerful or a certain level of strength. That does not mean someone else is not permitted to do so, and many have this bad habit of making people with strong characters feel bad because they're not on the same even level playing field with everyone else in the playground. If I have a strong character, I don't feel a need to justify their strength. I'm not here to make a spreadsheet about why my character may or may not be able to beat someone's face or fast talk them out of their gil. I let my play speak for itself. If people don't like it, then that's fine.
We all play this game to have fun. Some groups of roleplayers likes stronger characters, for various reasons. Others don't. Also for various reasons. The bottom line is, what's too much is a matter of opinion of each individual roleplayer and has no specific status quo. That's why discussions like these generally always degrade (but I'm glad to see this one hasn't! <3) But! Powerful people exist in the world, and weaker people exist in the world. Life isn't fair. There's always a bigger fish. And if that bigger fish is someone else's character, then, that's just how it is. As long as that person isn't antagonizing you unnecessarily, then there's nothing wrong with strength..especially in a fantasy world that basically runs on a mix of Wuxia fighting mechanics, explosions everywhere, and the Rule of Cool. I know some people like hardcore realism especially in abilities and skills of a character, but this is Final Fantasy. The world itself is basically nonsensical in the 'power' department. So sometimes you need a little suspension of disbelief as to someone's level of skill.
So when is a character too skilled, the topic asks? That's up to each individual to decide. There is no blanket right or wrong answer, because everyone has their preferences. If you think someone's too strong and diminishes others around them by your own opinion, but I don't think the same, then obviously one of us will be playing with that person, and one of us won't. If a large majority agree that person diminishes someone and they're not just following the crowd when saying it, but it's their real opinion, perhaps that player is being a bit too bombastic in how he portrays his strength, but the measure of his strength itself may not be the problem. Feeling like one needs to be a certain way or maintain a certain power level or skill level to adjust to the common law opinion of a community majority who likes a certain type of play at the exclusion of all other types kills RP rather than encourages it. I myself have a standing rule I'll RP with anyone unless the *player* is specifically antagonistic or pushy. Hell, I'm more likely to play with a superman character than I am with someone's character whose player is quoting lore at me in PM because one tiny thing on my profile or one single letter in my name isn't *exact* to the high lore standards that player happens to hold.
Basically, in my opinion (And just my opinion) there's no such thing as too skilled, or too unskilled, if played in such a way that it makes sense to the environment they are part of the story and still allows others their own opportunities to mesh in the play itself. We can't make everyone happy. Play to enjoy with the whole, or with small groups whichever suits you, and find your niche with people that think like you but at the same time try to not be closed off in the process and see from all angles, even if they don't suit you at first. Expand your horizon to the idea of what skill or strength even is. Use suspension of disbelief to a point, without throwing all reason out the window. The number of characters good at 'everything' is surprisingly rare from what I've seen, so it shouldn't be a huge issue in the long run. Game on~.
RE: When is a character too skilled? - Caspar - 09-06-2015
(09-05-2015, 10:12 AM)allgivenover Wrote: I find it more believable that a person could be pretty good at several things rather than an amazing expert of a single thing.I think either works so long as the sacrifice seems appropriate to the amount of proficiency. I do think it's rare to find someone who would dedicate most of their life to the pursuit of a single skill, but the concept is relatively common in fiction. Likewise though, I think it's totally fair to say one person devoted reasonable amounts of time to learning several hobbies, and jumped between multiple professions. If the backstory reflects this in effort spent, I figure it's easy to believe, probably even easier, since it's pretty common IRL anyway.
I feel like the motivation, talent, and innovative creativity necessary to go from "pretty good" at something to "amazing expert" is a huge gap compared to say... going from "novice" to "pretty good".