Hydaelyn Role-Players
Astrologian card issue. - Printable Version

+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Final Fantasy 14 (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=41)
+--- Forum: FFXIV Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=12)
+--- Thread: Astrologian card issue. (/showthread.php?tid=13280)

Pages: 1 2 3

RE: Astrologian card issue. - Warren Castille - 09-04-2015

In the spirit of this thread, can we get SE to change Sheltron's tooltip to accurately reflect what it does now? It claims to be some nonsense about automatically blocking something, when what it really does it FORCE YOU TO DODGE EVERY SINGLE ATTACK BECAUSE WHY WOULD YOU WANT TO PACIFY THINGS?

RE: Astrologian card issue. - Gegenji - 09-04-2015

I think the point is that the cards are supposed to be little more than utility and a bonus, and shouldn't be what you're relying on as an AST. I will admit, though, that getting leveling queues for dungeons where I DON'T have my cards available makes me feel like a weaker CNJ/WHM - but the boosts to the healing spells has helped with that.

And really, since you don't "need" the cards all that much, you can instead just use those Draws to set up for a boss fight if you have Royal Road and Spread. That's what I would do in dungeons like, say, Dusk Vigil. Find a Balance to put in my Spread, then use the other cards randomly until I found a "make it an AoE" card to Royal Road. Then I just lay off the cards until the boss and we have a group-wide attack buff for the first few seconds of the fight and then use whatever cards I pull afterward as appropriate. And then repeat in prep for the next boss.

That or I'll just stick a refresh in my spread, Royal Road a power or time extender and throw out the next card on whoever needs it. All the cards really do is improve the situation somehow, and your performance as a healer shouldn't rely on it. If you NEED that powered-up Bole to keep your tank from dying, there might be other problems in play.

RE: Astrologian card issue. - Eliane Dufresne - 09-04-2015

(09-04-2015, 09:18 AM)Gegenji Wrote: I think the point is that the cards are supposed to be little more than utility and a bonus...(snip)

And really, since you don't "need" the cards all that much, you can instead just use those Draws to set up for a boss fight if you have Royal Road and Spread. That's what I would do in dungeons like, say, Dusk Vigil. Find a Balance to put in my Spread, then use the other cards randomly until I found a "make it an AoE" card to Royal Road. Then I just lay off the cards until the boss and we have a group-wide attack buff for the first few seconds of the fight and then use whatever cards I pull afterward as appropriate. And then repeat in prep for the next boss.

That or I'll just stick a refresh in my spread, Royal Road a power or time extender and throw out the next card on whoever needs it. All the cards really do is improve the situation somehow, and your performance as a healer shouldn't rely on it. If you NEED that powered-up Bole to keep your tank from dying, there might be other problems in play.


Agreed on all points. I've been loving this class to death because of the utility it brings, but when things start getting messy the cards are the last thing on my mind. You don't NEED them to do your job, they just make your job easier sometimes.

That said I don't usually feel like I don't have enough control over the cards. Every once in a while the RNG decides I need nothing but Spires and Ewers when I've already burned one of those AND I have an extra sitting in my spread for emergencies, but...usually with the preparation described above you can come in strong for just about any fight and not have to worry about shuffle failing you. If all else fails, the cooldown timer on Draw is mercifully short.

There's a bit of strategy to it. It's fun. Big Grin

RE: Astrologian card issue. - LiadansWhisper - 09-04-2015

(09-04-2015, 03:51 PM)Eliane Dufresne Wrote: Agreed on all points. I've been loving this class to death because of the utility it brings, but when things start getting messy the cards are the last thing on my mind. You don't NEED them to do your job, they just make your job easier sometimes.

The issue with this is...what utility?

If you don't NEED the cards to do your job, what utility are you bringing?

Astrologians don't have particularly high damage, like Scholars.  And their healing is not amazeballs, like White Mages.  They don't bring very useful shields (even in Nocturnal, the shields are crap and smaller shields will refresh over larger ones), and their best tank CD is controlled by RNG. Outside of Essential Dignity, they bring no burst damage mitigation.

So...what other "utility" are they bringing if we're not looking at cards?

If we ARE looking at cards, the fact that they're totally RNG is a real issue.

RE: Astrologian card issue. - Gegenji - 09-06-2015

(09-04-2015, 11:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: So...what other "utility" are they bringing if we're not looking at cards?

The cards ARE part of their utility, though. Each of them can be used to either up an ally's damage output or negate some incoming damage (in the case of the Bole), and with proper prep before a boss pull you can have a good 20-30 seconds extra damage on everybody.

However, what I mean by them not being needed is that the class is designed so pulling a card you don't want or need doesn't "ruin" things. You pull the TP card when your tank is a Paladin or your party consists of two BRDs/NINs. You can drop that into your Spread for emergencies or burn it into Royal Road so the next card you DO use affects everyone... or you can just let it drop. And all the while your healing capability is in no way hindered from doing this since it's all off-GCD.

Other than that? I think they might be better at panic-healing a group than the other two classes? I mean, Lightspeed means every heal is instant cast except for the Aspected AoE and that one's still less than a second cast time.

And not to mention they're the only one who can fill "either" roll. They have options on whether they want a regen or a shield on their Aspected heals, and can freely switch between the two depending on both situation and party make-up. Able to mold themselves around the other healer in a raid situation and a bevvy of cards that all somehow benefit your teammates in some way sounds like utility to me.

RE: Astrologian card issue. - LiadansWhisper - 09-06-2015

(09-06-2015, 11:59 AM)Gegenji Wrote:
(09-04-2015, 11:32 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: So...what other "utility" are they bringing if we're not looking at cards?

The cards ARE part of their utility, though. Each of them can be used to either up an ally's damage output or negate some incoming damage (in the case of the Bole), and with proper prep before a boss pull you can have a good 20-30 seconds extra damage on everybody.

I never said they weren't.  It's pretty clear from my post if you go back and read it again.  I'm saying, if you're ignoring cards, what other utility do they bring?

Quote:However, what I mean by them not being needed is that the class is designed so pulling a card you don't want or need doesn't "ruin" things. You pull the TP card when your tank is a Paladin or your party consists of two BRDs/NINs. You can drop that into your Spread for emergencies or burn it into Royal Road so the next card you DO use affects everyone... or you can just let it drop. And all the while your healing capability is in no way hindered from doing this since it's all off-GCD.

Kind of, sort of, since you can't draw or use cards while you're got a cast bar.  But, if it affects things so little, how useful is it really?

Quote:Other than that? I think they might be better at panic-healing a group than the other two classes? I mean, Lightspeed means every heal is instant cast except for the Aspected AoE and that one's still less than a second cast time.

Okay...and White Mages can't pull this off with Swiftcast + Medica/Medica II, Assize, Benediction, and Tetragrammaton?  And should we add Divine Seal into the mix, too?  Still better than Synastry!  And Scholars can't pull this off with 3x Lustrate + Indominability + Emergency Tactics?  At least they don't have to stand still when they put down their Sacred Soil (and White Mages don't have to stop moving or casting for Asylum), and with Deployment Tactics , your health is never gonna go down in the first place.  And not only do they have Fey Illumination but they also have Dissipation.

And this isn't even adding in the fact that Scholars can do truly massive damage for a healer.

Quote:And not to mention they're the only one who can fill "either" roll. They have options on whether they want a regen or a shield on their Aspected heals, and can freely switch between the two depending on both situation and party make-up. Able to mold themselves around the other healer in a raid situation and a bevvy of cards that all somehow benefit your teammates in some way sounds like utility to me.

Yeah...Astrologians can fill either role badly.  They'll never be as good at straight healing as a White Mage and they'll never be as good at straight damage mitigation as a Scholar.  Their shields don't double on crits as far as I can tell, and weaker shields can override stronger shields (the buff simply refreshes with the newer shield, it doesn't look to see which one has the most health left).  And they're somehow not as mana efficient as Scholars or White Mages, which seems bonkers to me, but there you have it.

Also, damage.  Astrologians don't bring the damage a Scholar brings, and even a White Mage would probably be able to do more damage under Cleric Stance than an Astrologian would.

So I'm just saying...the spec still needs help.  Is it better than where it was?  Oh yes, yes it is.  Is it still something that would be the first choice on cutting edge content?  Nope.  And that's a real shame, because as long as the first choice is always going to be a White Mage or a Scholar, with Astrologian occupying the spot of, "Well, if we can't get anyone else..." it's going to suck playing one competitively.

Edited because sometimes I type Scholar instead of Astrologian and I don't know why, but I blame my Scholar buddies. It's their fault.

RE: Astrologian card issue. - V'aleera - 09-07-2015

I think making the redraw ability never draw the card going back in would make the function feel better to use.

RE: Astrologian card issue. - LiadansWhisper - 09-07-2015

(09-07-2015, 03:28 AM)V Wrote: I think making the redraw ability never draw the card going back in would make the function feel better to use.

It would go a long way to minimize the RNG factor of Shuffle.  While I realize it's anecdotal, from talking to multiple AST players, there seems to be a really common issue of Shuffle pulling the same card.  It wouldn't be an issue if it was on, say, a 30 second CD, but the CD is too long for you to be pulling the same damn card.

RE: Astrologian card issue. - Berrod Armstrong - 09-07-2015

(09-07-2015, 03:38 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-07-2015, 03:28 AM)V Wrote: I think making the redraw ability never draw the card going back in would make the function feel better to use.

It would go a long way to minimize the RNG factor of Shuffle.  While I realize it's anecdotal, from talking to multiple AST players, there seems to be a really common issue of Shuffle pulling the same card.  It wouldn't be an issue if it was on, say, a 30 second CD, but the CD is too long for you to be pulling the same damn card.
That wouldn't make it a gamble, though, and in the end that's what the AST cards are. Unknown fate, yadda yadda.

RE: Astrologian card issue. - X'raemha Rhiki - 09-07-2015

(09-07-2015, 03:38 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-07-2015, 03:28 AM)V Wrote: I think making the redraw ability never draw the card going back in would make the function feel better to use.

It would go a long way to minimize the RNG factor of Shuffle.  While I realize it's anecdotal, from talking to multiple AST players, there seems to be a really common issue of Shuffle pulling the same card.  It wouldn't be an issue if it was on, say, a 30 second CD, but the CD is too long for you to be pulling the same damn card.
That would make literally all the difference in the world.

RE: Astrologian card issue. - Pastry Army - 09-07-2015

(09-07-2015, 08:09 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote:
(09-07-2015, 03:38 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-07-2015, 03:28 AM)V Wrote: I think making the redraw ability never draw the card going back in would make the function feel better to use.

It would go a long way to minimize the RNG factor of Shuffle.  While I realize it's anecdotal, from talking to multiple AST players, there seems to be a really common issue of Shuffle pulling the same card.  It wouldn't be an issue if it was on, say, a 30 second CD, but the CD is too long for you to be pulling the same damn card.
That wouldn't make it a gamble, though, and in the end that's what the AST cards are. Unknown fate, yadda yadda.

See, now we are getting into that gray area of whether class aesthetics/design/functionality, what ever you wish to call it, are  impacting and fundamentally harming the actual gameplay and the simple fact of the matter is that it actually is. The entire design choice behind Shuffle is for the AST to be able to say "Hey, this card isn't very useful for me right now, lets change that!" And this for any number of reasons.

A card is all ready held. 

You have your desired Royal road or You don't want it's effect. 

No one can make use of it. 

You get the idea. To add further insult to this injury, Shuffle itself has a staggering 60 second CD only to have every 1 out of 3 to 2 out of 3 shuffles be the same card repeated over and over again. It's counter intuitive to the intended function of the ability and while its not game breaking (unless you are on the cutting edge of gameplay) it is both harmful and frustrating to deal with, especially as this is suppose to be a core mechanic for the class in general.

RE: Astrologian card issue. - LiadansWhisper - 09-07-2015

(09-07-2015, 08:09 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote:
(09-07-2015, 03:38 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-07-2015, 03:28 AM)V Wrote: I think making the redraw ability never draw the card going back in would make the function feel better to use.

It would go a long way to minimize the RNG factor of Shuffle.  While I realize it's anecdotal, from talking to multiple AST players, there seems to be a really common issue of Shuffle pulling the same card.  It wouldn't be an issue if it was on, say, a 30 second CD, but the CD is too long for you to be pulling the same damn card.
That wouldn't make it a gamble, though, and in the end that's what the AST cards are. Unknown fate, yadda yadda.

Disagree. You could still get a card you absolutely don't need. If I'm fishing for a Bole and get an Arrow and then an Ewer, I'm still fucked.

RE: Astrologian card issue. - Spethah - 09-07-2015

Are you guys complaining about RNG, in a game practically flooded with RNG (cough relic cough)? I've had no issues with this card problem you are all frantically debating about, if I don't need it I royal road it. Shuffle is just reloading a 1/6 RNG, there's a 1 in 6 chance of you getting the same card. You don't need to minimize RNG, that's like buffing atma drop rates which were designed to be done over a long period of tim--

Oh wait they did because people frantically complained non-stop cus they couldn't get it done in a week. Maaan you guys need to experience FFXI's version, this is a shopping trip in comparison. I'd hate to see you guys after playing Corsair, ohhh man.

RE: Astrologian card issue. - LiadansWhisper - 09-07-2015

(09-07-2015, 12:49 PM)Spethah Wrote: Are you guys complaining about RNG, in a game practically flooded with RNG (cough relic cough)? I've had no issues with this card problem you are all frantically debating about, if I don't need it I royal road it. Shuffle is just reloading a 1/6 RNG, there's a 1 in 6 chance of you getting the same card. You don't need to minimize RNG, that's like buffing atma drop rates which were designed to be done over a long period of tim--

Oh wait they did because people frantically complained non-stop cus they couldn't get it done in a week. Maaan you guys need to experience FFXI's version, this is a shopping trip in comparison. I'd hate to see you guys after playing Corsair, ohhh man.

I don't know how much healing you've done in the past, but as a rule of thumb, healers HATE RNG.

Also : yes, I'm complaining about RNG in the only healing class that has to deal with it. I'm doing so because that RNG directly contributes to that class being less desirable in a competitive setting than the other two, non RNG healers.

RE: Astrologian card issue. - Berrod Armstrong - 09-07-2015

(09-07-2015, 12:53 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-07-2015, 12:49 PM)Spethah Wrote: Are you guys complaining about RNG, in a game practically flooded with RNG (cough relic cough)? I've had no issues with this card problem you are all frantically debating about, if I don't need it I royal road it. Shuffle is just reloading a 1/6 RNG, there's a 1 in 6 chance of you getting the same card. You don't need to minimize RNG, that's like buffing atma drop rates which were designed to be done over a long period of tim--

Oh wait they did because people frantically complained non-stop cus they couldn't get it done in a week. Maaan you guys need to experience FFXI's version, this is a shopping trip in comparison. I'd hate to see you guys after playing Corsair, ohhh man.

I don't know how much healing you've done in the past, but as a rule of thumb, healers HATE RNG.

Also : yes, I'm complaining about RNG in the only healing class that has to deal with it. I'm doing so because that RNG directly contributes to that class being less desirable in a competitive setting than the other two, non RNG healers.
The thing is though, the RNG has nothing to do with the actual healing component of the job. If I'm not mistaken, they adjusted the potency of the healing so that the heals themselves weren't weak and ridiculous.

The card buffs are bonuses -- extras. If you really wanted to look at where AST shines, it'd be in versatility -- with the ability to fill in for a scholar with shields (where there isn't one) or a WHM with regens (again, where there isn't one). The cards are gravy, and pinning the RNG as the reason the class is less effective doesn't really seem like the right focus. 

I know a couple amazing AST healers whose only problem with the class before was the healing potency (and gosh darn they worked hard to make up for it). The cards themselves are an inbetween; a 'ooh this is handy!' 'Ooh I'll save this for later' 'Eh, I'll road it' in the midst of the versatile healing they can do. 

Not getting the card we want when we want it...? That's tough, and not something we should be relying on when it comes to the job -- because it can heal just fine. Not sure if I put it across the way it sounded in my head, but that's my take on it.