(02-07-2016, 06:53 PM)Caspar Wrote: I feel the assertion that only Fists of Rhalgr can be Monks, and only Monks can obtain the use of Chakra to empower themselves is against the spirit of the MNK quest line pre-50, and the idea that the codified method established by the Fists is the only way to achieve further unlocked chakra is against the spirit of the post-50 story line. Either way there are a lot of problems with this line of reasoning, and when speculating, nothing should be worded as if it is canonical fact.

The Monks are all Fists of Rhalgr. We know this much simply from the description given by the game: "Though now under Garlean rule, the city-state of Ala Mhigo once boasted the greatest military might of all Eorzea. Among its standing armies were the monks—ascetic warriors as dreaded by foes on the field of battle as the city-state's great pikemen.
The monks comprised an order known as the Fist of Rhalgr, and it was to this god—the Destroyer—that they devoted their lives of worship. By mastering seats of power within the body known as chakra, they are capable of performing extraordinary physical feats.” As for the post-50 Monk story quests, those involve the Warrior of Light, who is a very very special snowflake. Trying to justify guesses by referring to the WoL just isn't reasonable, as it's a very different case when it comes to him/her.

It seemed to me during the Monk quests 1-50 that the concept of Chakra (IE. the name and supposed method of manipulation) was a trained method from within FoR. However Erik, who was not trained in the method, was able to observe the process of internalizing latent Aether released from places of mass death and violence, so that suggests to me this is an empirically observable phenomenon, albeit not necessarily one that has progressed in popular knowledge beyond conjecture or an obscure theory.

If the process of unlocking Chakra is objective and can be accomplished in that specific method, it is not inconceivable other martial artists who unconsciously or intentionally repeated the method could at least unlock Chakra in the same way, ignorant of the terminology and methodology specified by FoR training. In other words, it's like the multiple discovery concept from science. With all the haranguing about how dangerous this setting is going around the forum, isn't it rather easy to consider the possibility that a person who already understands the concept of using Aether to empower themselves trained in a battlefield where mass death occurred? Perhaps like the leftovers of a massive Xaela tribal war, or even razed Doma?

I used to think something similar, but then I figured that if any John Smith with some martial prowess and a decently trained body could unlock chakras by wandering over an area of concentrated aether, the vast majority of Ala Mhigans would have one or two chakras unlocked. We know this isn't the case though, as the Monks were a section of the army that were separate from the rest. So the obvious conclusion is that something specific to the Fists of Rhalgr/Monks is how one can unlock chakras.

That being said, if there was concurrent discoveries regarding the same natural force, I think that the terminology, method of use and extent of understanding would probably differ wildly. Theoretically, if another group discovered the "Chakra" at the same time, the name given wouldn't be the same. In addition, FoR at its height was very well established and state supported, so it is unlikely another monastic tradition elsewhere in the world would have been able to achieve the same depth of understanding. It might be that they are only capable of unlocking a few Chakra due to limited access to sufficiently Aether-suffused battlefields, too.

Although it may be possible for another group to somehow discover the use of internal aether, I think I've already explained why it's specific to Gyr Abania and the Fists of Rhalgr. If my memory fails me and I haven't, here's a quick overview: the religious aspects (Rhalgr's destructive nature, specifically) are most likely paramount, Gyr Abania is the perfect place for it, Ala Mhigans are some of the best physical specimens we know of, and simply the fact that the Monks were feared by the other city states. If this knowledge and way of fighting was discovered elsewhere, it would be snapped up by militaries just because of how big a difference even a few 'unlocked chakra' makes. This didn't happen.

We've also never established that Monk specifically and exclusively refers to a Fist of Rhalgr. Monk is a generic term like Kleenex in Eorzea; in the context it might refer to a Fist of Rhalgr, and in game play terms that is the only order we're allowed to learn from, but the term itself is pretty standard. Does this mean no monks exist within the Halonic religion, or that the term could not even be applied to their equivalent?

Please see the quote above. The Monks came first in Gyr Abania as worshippers of Rhalgr. Once they got more organised and turned into an actual force, they took on the name "Fists of Rhalgr".

Moreover, the +60 storyline suggests that some of the theories about how the Chakra are unlocked towards the higher levels of mastery are either false or poorly understood. You can say "It's the WoL, they're a special snowflake," but I wonder about that. The process of internalizing latent battlefield Aether to open a Chakra is established as objective fact, and it is a specific mechanism that is repeatable among many individuals in different locations given similar circumstances, a fact which Widargelt seemed ignorant of. How could the order be so sure that the method of training is exactly how they established within the Order, long before the Mad King dissolved the temple, when clearly even an experienced Monk seemed to not fully understand at least half of the discipline? And it is established too that there are inimical factions within the temple that have different attitudes on how to go about training.

I do say "It's the WoL, they're a special snowflake," because that's exactly the reason the player character can do so many amazing things. I don't know where you're getting the idea that Mr. Friendship is Magic (Widargelt) doesn't know about that method of gaining chakras, considering he's not only the one to tell you about it, you also spend the first few Monk quests going to said locations. Also, I don't think it's ever said that Wildargelt is some kind of higher up when it comes to the Monks. Heck, he didn't even have all of his sect's chakras unlocked when you first meet him; he's simply someone who managed to escape the purge. Keep in mind that I haven't done the quests in a while though, so feel free to throw some quotes my way.

I guess my point is that certain elements of the MNK questline are quantifiable enough that they can't be considered to be something FoR created, only discovered, at least in Eorzea. Other elements cast doubt upon the FoR's absolute knowledge of their own power outside of an instinctual and metaphysical spirituality. There is enough grey area that you could write a convincing enough reason for someone learning to use Aether in martial arts in the manner of the FoR on their own, or as part of a similar martial order. True a lot of speculation is present here, but I think it is ultimately more honest to say "it could happen" rather than assert it as an effective impossibility.

I think the technique developed by the Monks/Fists of Rhalgr is a product of their unique position in the world and circumstances. Sure, it's possible someone somewhere figured it out too, but I think it's no more likely than someone in Limsa deciding they can jump from ship to ship like a Dragoon, poking at masts with their spear.

Addressing the other approach, I think that the idea of a FoR moving to Othard and eventually training someone isn't inconceivable, but definitely a special case sort of scenario. Considering why someone would do it properly is tricky. We know that the temple was dissolved, and Garlemald rules both Othard and Ala Mhigo. Consider scenarios where a traitor to the order whose training was incomplete cast her lot with the Garleans and went to Othard to train soldiers in martial arts, while cherry picking specific trainees or civilians to build an unofficial, bastard branch of the Fists in secret as a kind of trump card with which they could seize political power after returning to Eorzea, or something like that. Or maybe they were an Obi-Wan style figure who fled Ala Mhigo in shame after failing to defend the country, and found someone with the proper potential in Othard.

With how devout the Fists were, I doubt the likelihood of one moving on to the side where worshipping the Twelve is forbidden. As for the Star Wars reference, I already went over why it would be unlikely for a Monk to choose Othard as their place to retreat to.

For these situations, I feel a basic familiarity with martial arts tropes from the core is really helpful in crafting scenarios that feel dramatically interesting and still seem like they could take place in the setting. Watching a lot of Wuxia would probably help. Contrary to the popular Western image of martial artists, the Chinese entertainment and literature bloc has all kinds of empowered warriors, from men who simply obtained great strength from single-minded training, to members of monastic orders, to criminals and thugs who essentially dropped out of chi school, to political fanatics and assassins who developed godlike martial arts to further their cause. It is far from the sterile discipline of shaolinesque monk orders (And even the shaolin are wildly misunderstood) we see in typical RPGs. FoR appears to be this sort of order from the outside, but it doesn't even truly exist anymore, so even that is only suggested by the lore, after the fact. In such a chaotic setting, could any single codified method of training in chakra-based martial arts really be considered to be the only one? That's what I'm skeptical of. Even familiarity with the tropes of martial-arts fiction clearly suggests that anyone, ANYONE who knows the right tricks and has the correct training, and in some cases, latent potential, can be capable of the things FoR is. And even if the techniques are super secret, anyone even passingly familiar with kung fu fiction knows that such techniques never stay secret for long.

Using other works of fiction to support theories in another one is extremely iffy. This isn't a Kung Fu movie where the hero always finds a way to win, it's a brutal world where religious secrets wouldn't just be 'figured out' by someone who tries hard enough.

(02-07-2016, 07:09 PM)Caspar Wrote: It's just my opinion, but thank you anyway.

I think that it is best to start out small. Like say, it's an unrefined, instinctual method of fighting in comparison to the training. Try to consider what is reasonable for your character's trainer or order to discover. If they are small, it is less believable that they achieved full understanding of Chakra, using the same terminology, as the FoR did.

For instance, my character cannot consciously manipulate aether and derives power from another source (freakishness) but it might have something to do with Chakra... However, none of her training told her anything about use of Aether. So it would be difficult for me to justify within my narrative Virara using techniques like Elixir Beam, Meditation or Howling Fist that seem to draw upon specific uses of Chakra manipulation technique passed down through FoR tradition. Before encountering the Fists, she'd only heard rumors of the concept and never really put much stock in it. Even her mentor in the backstory I wrote, for all her monstrous power, doesn't really know much about Chakra and generally neglects that aspect of her training, because instinctual use of Aether just out of reflex and raw talent served her well for tens of thousands of bouts. In both cases, I tried to think about what an outsider to the order realistically could understand, and what they could ignorantly stumble upon.

It sounds more like your character is drawing upon something more akin to the Warriors of Abalathia's Spine, who control their inner anger to increase their power. I'm also afraid to say that "instinctual use of Aether" and "reflex and raw talent" wouldn't cut it when you're dealing with internal aether. First off, the reason using internal aether requires so much concentration and training is that the average person's body just simply can't hold more than their base amount of aether. That's why years and years of training need to be undergone before 'chakras' can be 'unlocked'.

Also, since you referenced IRL sources when talking about martial arts, I'll do the same. No one I've ever met, in decades of MMA and self defense, has a natural talent for fighting. Some people are naturally more violent, some might be able to take a hit better, but no one steps into a ring or a fight and can simply let their instincts win for them. That's a myth, and is a silly thing to bring up outside of children's cartoons made for inspiration. When you see talk of a fighter's body 'moving by itself', it's muscle memory. I won't go into the detailed neurological reasons for this, but if you repeat a movement something over and over, it gets extremely easy for your body to repeat that motion. This gets to the point where it's your natural reflex to do something.

So it's extremely unlikely that someone could use something as volatile as internal aether without formal training in that specific area, not without ripping their body to shreds trying. Just giving some constructive criticism, not trying to insult your character or NPCs.

In other cases, I created monk-like NPCs that use the discipline of conjury-like Aether manipulation that forms the theoretical basis of Ninja abilities. The chassis is similar, but the engine is different. In those cases, I thought about how to incorporate what we observe in the NIN storyline and where there is enough overlap with techniques demonstrated in the MNK storyline that a rough facsimile or hybrid technique could theoretically exist without being too outlandish.

Just as an example: This is entirely my speculation, but I like to think that Fuma Shuriken isn't really forming a huge shuriken out of earth and metal elements, but a basic wind technique similar to Aero from Conjury that manipulates the velocity and aerodynamics of the shuriken to give it greater power and accuracy. By that logic, I felt someone who could manipulate air elements could use an immensely boosted version of the same technique to cut with the air itself, and not simply the shuriken, as that seems to be what Aero does. This is just me rambling at this point, though. Really I just want to demonstrate how I think about creating non-canon abilities for purposes of RP. I want to draw from the setting as much as I can, think about how logically someone could conceive of such a technique, and try to tie it to the lore as closely as I can without compromising my vision.

Too bad there isn't really any lore on the Duality technique as I am curious as to how that even functions. Is the NIN striking twice within one breath hastily? Are they using the SPOILER power shown in the latter NIN pre 50 quests? There is so much room for theory and interesting concepts just around one skill, and in some ways that ambiguity just makes it more fun to think about.


I haven't touched that job, but from what I've heard of the ninja storyline, their skills resemble some rubbish from Naruto, so I can't comment on anything ninja related and would be wary about using it, considering my preference for relative realism in RP. I also tend not to use ideas in my characters unless they have at least some information to support them in the actual game, but that's just me.