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+--- Thread: PVP as an RP element...? (/showthread.php?tid=1711)
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Sigyn Shieldbreaker - 02-23-2013
(02-22-2013, 11:16 PM)Deirdre Wrote: Those of us who spent a lot of time in 1.0 already have our characters to lvl 50 on multiple classes, relics, and high ranking gear. A new character, which there seem to be a lot incoming in the RP community, isn't going to have that. It takes a lot of time and effort to obtain these things, those of us who remained with the game have 2 years of total accumulation. It's going to take newer people a significant amount of time to catch up, and that's just reality.
While I mean to each his own style, no one method is going to be generally accepted in the community.
On the note of people becoming involved in things as fights and sparring, this is definitely not always the case. While of course there may be certain causes for intervention, in my own experiences (and since Deir is a spaz and violent, there is a lot of them) people prefer to stay on the sidelines than interfere. (ex: Deir had gone on a rampage with at least 7 people standing there, no one jumped in to stop it)
RP sparring, where it is coordinated that two people fight for training purposes, occurred a lot as well. In places like The Eorzean Guard it was built in to the shell to train, and the sparring became less technical and more of an intimate relationship between whoever was fighting who. You feed off of one another, it's actually a very wonderful experience.
PvP mechanics, by their very nature, are going to be flawed. There is going to be an imbalance, whether from one class to another or one gear-set to another. It's not something you can control, while you can train at it, you cannot control it like you can text based, and be truer to your character. There isn't going to be on the fly gear switching either, which rules out multiple classes being available to you. If you're a white mage, you're limited to your white mage abilities, and we all know each of our characters are capable of more than that... it's written in the game.
I mean, do what pleases you~ but there are a lot more cool things to focus on in the game than beating someone in straight PvP (which is going to take a lot of grinding, and a lot of practice, and yeah, luck), rather than your character out witting them.
You make a good point, but I think I misspoke on at least one thing and wasn't inclusive enough.
I did say 'inevitably' as it's been my experience that whenever a fight is going on, whether or not I'm involved in it, some well-meaning passerby will always try to get involved and stop the fight or intimidate a violent stranger into stopping. My experience, admittedly, is only my experience and therefore limited, and one particular occasion came to mind where I was ignored in such a situation. I suppose to some people, it's legitimate to ignore someone who tries to stop a fight when no one even noticed them standing there and roleplaying for the past four hours, but on the other hand, it seems like a lightsaber in your immediate vicinity would at least slow you down. This is why I gave up trying to roleplay a valiant and upstanding person who sticks their nose in other people's business in that particular atmosphere-- but those kinds of mishaps (and sadly there were quite a few) are probably not likely to occur amongst the people in the RPC.
Also, are we 100% sure that people from the old games are bringing all their old characters and garnishes from their old servers to the new ones or that the new people are going to be able to roll on servers with them? I was under the impression that there was going to be some sort of separation on that point-- but regardless, any time a game starts, there are people playing from the get-go, collecting all the great things, and reaching the cap (or various caps) in the game. If that whole obstacle was such a problem, PVP in RP wouldn't exist at all, or if it did, it would only exist for people who were there from the start or at least very early on, which is simply not the case. New gear, new caps, new abilities, new things are happening and there won't be a constant disadvantage for the new people.
PVP mechanics may be flawed, and sometimes they're permanently imbalanced-- World of Warcraft is a perpetual testament to that. But one pro to PVP duels, as Varael point out, is the sort of filtering they can manage to do to prevent god-moding. The RPC roleplayers are all mature people, and I know many individuals go to great lengths to avoid anything that might remotely resemble GMing but it exists, and sometimes unintentionally. People's perceptions on what is and is not GMing in certain situations is different, like in everything else. Another is that, even if there -is- imbalance, you -can- overcome that imbalance. It's not impossible.
I want to see RP and PVP and just regular game mechanics being taken in to the roleplaying realm and used to further enhance the flavor of the overall RP experience. I agree training together, even leveling together, can be a wonderful experience and I don't think taking five seconds to conduct a PVP-style training session has to detract from that. I want to support other roleplayers, and I don't mind being a bystander while the world is moving at two speeds for everyone involved-- the speeds at which they have to write out their hits and the amount of time it takes for someone to say something to someone else; the alternative being not saying anything and waiting for them to finish up what they're doing. It's the same time issue, however, that can be created by conducting a canon forum rp started on a designated date and time and continuing while people are also roleplaying in game where there are continuity problems and timeline issues.
And, yes, the game gives us the ability to be capable of any and everything and have the potential to have our characters -be- everything. It also gives us access to being a hero, one of the supreme special people in the setting, just like in every other MMO, and we agree that not everyone can be the equivalent of the Sultana or Louisoix. I understand that you're saying 'within reason', but where exactly does 'within reason' end when we're talking about your in game potential, which is virtually endless? A jack of all trades is a master of none, so I don't think it's far-fetched for someone to only roleplay fight as one thing or one and a half things at one time and with as much potential as they have, be limited to the range of skills given by the class(es) they feel they want to predominantly use in character.
There -are- a lot more cool things than -focusing on beating someone in straight PVP- but that's what I'm talking about. It's not a focus any more than just getting in fights in general should be a focus. It's an accessory, something that can be fun and quick and just as viable for good RPers as text-based RP and doesn't take the majority or even half of your time to do. Your character outwitting someone else isn't very easy, since there's a thinking, self-preserving, witty person on the other side of that.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Deirdre - 02-23-2013
(02-23-2013, 12:07 AM)Siobhain Wrote:(02-22-2013, 11:16 PM)Deirdre Wrote: Those of us who spent a lot of time in 1.0 already have our characters to lvl 50 on multiple classes, relics, and high ranking gear. A new character, which there seem to be a lot incoming in the RP community, isn't going to have that. It takes a lot of time and effort to obtain these things, those of us who remained with the game have 2 years of total accumulation. It's going to take newer people a significant amount of time to catch up, and that's just reality.
While I mean to each his own style, no one method is going to be generally accepted in the community.
On the note of people becoming involved in things as fights and sparring, this is definitely not always the case. While of course there may be certain causes for intervention, in my own experiences (and since Deir is a spaz and violent, there is a lot of them) people prefer to stay on the sidelines than interfere. (ex: Deir had gone on a rampage with at least 7 people standing there, no one jumped in to stop it)
RP sparring, where it is coordinated that two people fight for training purposes, occurred a lot as well. In places like The Eorzean Guard it was built in to the shell to train, and the sparring became less technical and more of an intimate relationship between whoever was fighting who. You feed off of one another, it's actually a very wonderful experience.
PvP mechanics, by their very nature, are going to be flawed. There is going to be an imbalance, whether from one class to another or one gear-set to another. It's not something you can control, while you can train at it, you cannot control it like you can text based, and be truer to your character. There isn't going to be on the fly gear switching either, which rules out multiple classes being available to you. If you're a white mage, you're limited to your white mage abilities, and we all know each of our characters are capable of more than that... it's written in the game.
I mean, do what pleases you~ but there are a lot more cool things to focus on in the game than beating someone in straight PvP (which is going to take a lot of grinding, and a lot of practice, and yeah, luck), rather than your character out witting them.
You make a good point, but I think I misspoke on at least one thing and wasn't inclusive enough.
I did say 'inevitably' as it's been my experience that whenever a fight is going on, whether or not I'm involved in it, some well-meaning passerby will always try to get involved and stop the fight or intimidate a violent stranger into stopping. My experience, admittedly, is only my experience and therefore limited, and one particular occasion came to mind where I was ignored in such a situation. I suppose to some people, it's legitimate to ignore someone who tries to stop a fight when no one even noticed them standing there and roleplaying for the past four hours, but on the other hand, it seems like a lightsaber in your immediate vicinity would at least slow you down. This is why I gave up trying to roleplay a valiant and upstanding person who sticks their nose in other people's business in that particular atmosphere-- but those kinds of mishaps (and sadly there were quite a few) are probably not likely to occur amongst the people in the RPC.
Also, are we 100% sure that people from the old games are bringing all their old characters and garnishes from their old servers to the new ones or that the new people are going to be able to roll on servers with them? I was under the impression that there was going to be some sort of separation on that point-- but regardless, any time a game starts, there are people playing from the get-go, collecting all the great things, and reaching the cap (or various caps) in the game. If that whole obstacle was such a problem, PVP in RP wouldn't exist at all, or if it did, it would only exist for people who were there from the start or at least very early on, which is simply not the case. Â New gear, new caps, new abilities, new things are happening and there won't be a constant disadvantage for the new people.
PVP mechanics may be flawed, and sometimes they're permanently imbalanced-- World of Warcraft is a perpetual testament to that. But one pro to PVP duels, as Varael point out, is the sort of filtering they can manage to do to prevent god-moding. The RPC roleplayers are all mature people, and I know many individuals go to great lengths to avoid anything that might remotely resemble GMing but it exists, and sometimes unintentionally. People's perceptions on what is and is not GMing in certain situations is different, like in everything else. Another is that, even if there -is- imbalance, you -can- overcome that imbalance. It's not impossible.
I want to see RP and PVP and just regular game mechanics being taken in to the roleplaying realm and used to further enhance the flavor of the overall RP experience. I agree training together, even leveling together, can be a wonderful experience and I don't think taking five seconds to conduct a PVP-style training session has to detract from that. I want to support other roleplayers, and I don't mind being a bystander while the world is moving at two speeds for everyone involved-- the speeds at which they have to write out their hits and the amount of time it takes for someone to say something to someone else; the alternative being not saying anything and waiting for them to finish up what they're doing. It's the same time issue, however, that can be created by conducting a canon forum rp started on a designated date and time and continuing while people are also roleplaying in game where there are continuity problems and timeline issues.
And, yes, the game gives us the ability to be capable of any and everything and have the potential to have our characters -be- everything. It also gives us access to being a hero, one of the supreme special people in the setting, just like in every other MMO, and we agree that not everyone can be the equivalent of the Sultana or Louisoix. I understand that you're saying 'within reason', but where exactly does 'within reason' end when we're talking about your in game potential, which is virtually endless? A jack of all trades is a master of none, so I don't think it's far-fetched for someone to only roleplay fight as one thing or one and a half things at one time and with as much potential as they have, be limited to the range of skills given by the class(es) they feel they want to predominantly use in character.
There -are- a lot more cool things than -focusing on beating someone in straight PVP- but that's what I'm talking about. It's not a focus any more than just getting in fights in general should be a focus. It's an accessory, something that can be fun and quick and just as viable for good RPers as text-based RP and doesn't take the majority or even half of your time to do. Your character outwitting someone else isn't very easy, since there's a thinking, self-preserving, witty person on the other side of that.
Ahh so many points to reply too @.@ hehehe
I mean, everyone is going to have different experiences, just as mine and yours have differed when it comes to people getting involved. I mean I can't say it will or won't happen, it just depends on the kind of characters you end up having in a room. A lot of what I see on the RPC is people trying to be true to their characters nature (and I'll use Deir as an example a lot because who do you know better than your own character?). Deir won't get involved in two people just fighting it out, she doesn't care, but if it came to a good friend of hers getting physically hurt? Then yeah depending on the circumstances she might jump in. That's all situational, and PvP is something that will end up limiting that ability to have that situation arise.
100% sure, anything and everything I had on Deir (and her retainers) is coming with me to 2.0. Which means gear, levels, items... everything. The RPC designated RP server for a fact will be a server that will contain people from 1.0, and thus the things they bring with them. New characters will be able to roll on these servers, and since a huge base of the RP community is from 1.0, the likelihood of us rolling on a previous 1.0 server is like, definite. If you wanted a fresh server, you would have to roll on one that does not contain the bulk of the RP community.
I'm pretty sure we all know what accounts as GMing, most of us are not new to that fact. While I cannot say it does not occur, there are methods of addressing that.
It's not so much that the imbalance isn't impossible to overcome, it's that there is no real need for it to be overcome. I want RP to be fluid, natural, I don't want to have to fight mechanics and all the rest of it to also be able to play my character appropriately.
Addressing the time factor of RP is another thing. While yeah, sure it is going to take longer than a quick 5 second PvP match, there is also more involved, more depth. It's not the same as forum RP, where you could wait two or three days for a post, and it's definatly not as lengthy in text. It's quick, you have to think quick and act, there is no real sitting around and waiting. A sentance or two, and emote. If you're going to RP spar, your head has to be in your character, and ready to go. I don't know anyone who has pushed anything back to forum RP from the game, unless it was private between two characters. It's actually a struggle in this community to get people RPing on the forums.
I speak a lot about RP sparring because that's how I got my start to RP. Admittedly it was a LONG time ago, and the character was not my own creation, but everyone starts somewhere. It was time based, improper spelling and grammar counted against you. You had to be quick and accurate, and if you weren't, the penalty was often a successful hit. Not to say this is how it is in FFXIV RP sparring, it's not, but this is just where my head-space on the matter comes.
With classes and characters relation, you're right. Characters are going to have their strengths and weaknesses, and it's usually apparent. Just take a peek at the wikis, most people have OOCly stated their characters flaws, and everyone I know sticks to that pretty well.
While the story tells us 'we can be the hero', most of us do not play our characters as following the 'main plot'. Instead they exist in this realm we have been given, with the Lore provided, and we make our own lives out of it. In most cases this has nothing to do with grand schemes, but personal challenges and issues. While I'm not saying there aren't characters trying to be the 'hero', it's rarely the case.
It's not always about who is on the other end of your RP. It's about the characters themselves, and this is the depth that PvP just does not provide. While it can be a good tool, sure why not, it doesn't do it for me. I'm not trying to out wit the person who is RPing with me, I'm trying to be my character. I'm trying to be Deirdre, make her come across and act out what she would do, and respond in turn to the character she is with, not the RPer.
There are more outcomes than just winning and losing in RP sparring, unlike PvP in it's base element. There is emotion; shouting and screaming and crying or laughing. There is pain; wounds inflicted, old injuries effecting performance. Perhaps the fighting stops in the middle, cause the other person suddenly apologizes, or breaks down because they are only acting out pent up anxiety.
PvP is technical. You win, or you lose.
<3
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - TheLastCandle - 02-23-2013
I've never been one to seek out IC fights; it's simply not a focus of mine. But it does happen, and I think both text-based and "real" PvP have their pros and cons in role-playing. I usually prefer a combination of the two, especially if it's become clear that one or both of the participants obviously wants to win.
I'm all for good storytelling, and oftentimes a defeat is a more successful means of developing a character. But let's face it - pit two characters against each other and even the most well-intentioned players might feel a bit competitive, even if it's an effort to "outwit" the other player, as Deirdre put it. This is where things can get a bit messy, in my experience, if both players feel that their character "should" win.
In short, PvP provides a rather clear and indisputable resolution to an IC conflict, takes advantage of the visual medium in which we all interact, and usually doesn't last as long as most emote-fights. Text-based battles have the advantage of putting two characters on fairly equal footing in terms of gear and levels. I think flexibility is the key here, and if two players can't agree on how to proceed with the fight, both should likely find some way of bowing out.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Moltove - 02-25-2013
(02-22-2013, 09:36 PM)Siobhain Wrote: Either way, I don't feel that a PVP duel detracts from Roleplay. In fact, RP almost always seem to be derailed when things devolve into text-based fights, even when done by the most expert roleplayers with the best intentions. People on the sidelines inevitably will try to get involved, and likely be ignored. People instinctively resort to self-preservation and almost no one can subconsciously agree on what a 'expert' level entails. People who normally roleplay as open novices, still manage somehow to elude veterans, and will continue to do so. And, along with everything else, it takes time. If it happens with a group of other people and those people aren't involved in the fight itself, they're stuck sitting there watching you pound out paragraph after paragraph, move after move, and if they try to get involved and -aren't- ignored, things can suddenly become uncomfortably imbalanced.So, in my experiences in EQ2, I noticed this whole sideline thing ALL TO OFTEN. It always seems to start 1 V 1 but eventually both players end up having a small group arrive to help. If the fight isn't organized at all, it can get messy as paragraph after paragraph flies through the chat box. That is, to say...if you aren't ignored. I felt border-line offended knowing that a couple times my character, or rather my OOC attempt to include my character, was blown off. Of course, better thinking allows me to realize that there's just too many characters on the screen, attacks coming from every direction, and no control over the chat box so things are bound to be missed. Having a choice of PvP could ease these troubles... or, you can /say ((Hey guys, hold off one second, let's try to pair off into groups to clear out the clutter and get more organized!)). Either way.
Altogether, I think maturity and understanding is required for all forms of RP, including duels, in any facet, but I think that PVP is quicker, effective, and a legitimate reflection of how much effort you put into your character to portray how much skill he or she has based on your aspirations.
Witnessing two players go at it, and you're nothing but a number in the small crowd, it's a little different, and I have to admit boring sometimes, depending on what the fight is about and how my character is involved/perceives it and if he was there to actually hear what's going on. But if the fight drags on, I'm apt to leave. If I'm part of it, and have to wait until the fight is over? Well, then I guess I'll be taking a few smoke breaks, lol. PvP could expidite this, especially if anyone is strapped for time, or open communication to decide how to progress things faster. Often times, it's the "My character's not going down! Oh yeah? Mine's not either!" mentality that we ALL have been guilty of somewhere along the line.
My experience with PvP in RP has been sparce, but I've fought enough in my time as an Assassin in EQ2. I'm one of those people who love to work on their characters as much as possible, because I take pride in my little baby Molt. Well, except in XIV...Molt was SoL for any Scout classes and I have to admit, 1.0 /barely/ held my interest. But anyways, I will admit that I won almost every PvP RP fight, mostly because I put a lot of effort in my class. Gear (despite not being a raider), *correct* skill points, positioning tactics and hotbar organization made the difference. (sigh) Sorry, getting sidetracked. Anyways, RPers are so different from each other, that it's hard to predict who actually put time into their class and there's always a mix of high levels and low levels, and it's sort of fun like that sometimes. But a common discrepency I've noticed is that there are VERY FEW RPers that actually go out and get the best gear, arrange their hotbars in the best way, put all their attributes and skill points in the correct* slots. This makes it so a lvl 40 Assassin can get the upper hand of a 45-50 Shadow Knight.
The problem that I see is that there are people who focus soley on social RP and say that they are more experienced than their physical level. But then what about the people who put effort in both RP and PvE content? No one will be satisfied, so I guess we're back to square 1.
Oh wait, we're not. We're at square 2, because as fun-loving, mature (mostly >.>) adults we know that we have the option to type out our fights if we have time or are feeling creative or PvP if we wanna just pinch one out (*snicker*). My only advice would be to just try it out. But the fact that this issue has met with so much friction in this thread has me wondering what the problem really is. PvP can be a choice, especially if there's a duel option.
Luckily Ypshi P announced PvP won't be a big thing. There will be 2 (I think) zones dedicated to PvP, and arenas in every city for 1 v 1, 4 v 4 and 8 v 8. I hope there will be a duel command , but probably not. Until then you'll have to RP that the guards will kick you out of the city if you fight.
*(correct as in there's always only one correct way to spec unless if you're a tank or healer. As DPS or as a Buffer, you are always expected, in groups, to have either top DPS [which is only one spec, there is never a comparable second spec] or certain buffs debuffs, which limit what you actually can spec anywhere else other than the basics. Healers must usually spec for certain buffs and absolute heal things, until they can start compensating for speccing for some DPS. Tanks...just have to survive and maintain aggro. Usually if you don't have top gear, you have to spec for both, and there's always only one way to do so but once you get higher tier gear, people care less as survivability comes a little easier, and aggro may be easier to manage, therefore what your gear has, you can slowly spec for DPS. Of which there is only one way to spec, usually.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - NKato - 02-25-2013
(02-22-2013, 09:36 PM)Siobhain Wrote: Either way, I don't feel that a PVP duel detracts from Roleplay. In fact, RP almost always seem to be derailed when things devolve into text-based fights, even when done by the most expert roleplayers with the best intentions. People on the sidelines inevitably will try to get involved, and likely be ignored. People instinctively resort to self-preservation and almost no one can subconsciously agree on what a 'expert' level entails. People who normally roleplay as open novices, still manage somehow to elude veterans, and will continue to do so. And, along with everything else, it takes time. If it happens with a group of other people and those people aren't involved in the fight itself, they're stuck sitting there watching you pound out paragraph after paragraph, move after move, and if they try to get involved and -aren't- ignored, things can suddenly become uncomfortably imbalanced.
Bolded the part that happened to me when I was RPing with Shurin and we encountered Deirdre and Navei out in the boonies.
Tried to resolve it through OOC discussion in /tell, that went nowhere. I threw up my arms in exasperation and just played along what I could.
To be honest, examples like these are why I've decided to give up on trying to enjoy roleplay on Balmung. It's just not worth the hassle anymore.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Deirdre - 02-25-2013
(02-25-2013, 04:26 AM)NKato Wrote:(02-22-2013, 09:36 PM)Siobhain Wrote: Either way, I don't feel that a PVP duel detracts from Roleplay. In fact, RP almost always seem to be derailed when things devolve into text-based fights, even when done by the most expert roleplayers with the best intentions. People on the sidelines inevitably will try to get involved, and likely be ignored. People instinctively resort to self-preservation and almost no one can subconsciously agree on what a 'expert' level entails. People who normally roleplay as open novices, still manage somehow to elude veterans, and will continue to do so. And, along with everything else, it takes time. If it happens with a group of other people and those people aren't involved in the fight itself, they're stuck sitting there watching you pound out paragraph after paragraph, move after move, and if they try to get involved and -aren't- ignored, things can suddenly become uncomfortably imbalanced.
Bolded the part that happened to me when I was RPing with Shurin and we encountered Deirdre and Navei out in the boonies.
Tried to resolve it through OOC discussion in /tell, that went nowhere. I threw up my arms in exasperation and just played along what I could.
To be honest, examples like these are why I've decided to give up on trying to enjoy roleplay on Balmung. It's just not worth the hassle anymore.
As I mentioned further above, GMing will not be tolerated when it comes to anything RP, including sparring. The reason you were ignored was because of that fact, and because of the rude OOC comments you made.
You really have no argument here, if anything you are an example of why things go awry.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Vareal - 02-25-2013
You guys write so much and make so many good points, I think I started a thread outside of my own skill level with RPing in general. Like I said earlier, I've never RP'd a fight before but I'm all for it.
As far as PvP as an RP mechanic, I was simply making a suggestion that, if, it's a good mechanic, that it could be incorporated into RP elements, not replace the traditional text based RP fights. It's just an avenue to explore.
And I 100% understand the fact that one class would be better over the other and that is also where I disagree with Siobhain about being able to adapt to your weaknesses or the strengths of another class. In PvP, there are simply classes that dominate the other classes no matter what and that depends on how the balancing is done.
Take Lineage 2 for example. When I started playing, the Abyss Walker class was the creme of the crop. After an expansion update and changes to the PvP balancing to make it "more fair" to the other classes, the Nuker classes (spell howler, wizard, necromancer etc.) became the one's to look out for. The Spell Howler was by far the best and could decimate any other class in single combat. So that does bring up a good point: how do you approach that? Until we know more about ARR's PvP system, there can be no educated guess but I think that, on a wide scale such as linkshell vs linkshell PvP battles, it could be an interesting element.
Again, I just think that PvP could keep certain elements...'alive' and 'fresh'. That's just me, I still feel a little out classed here. :p
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Deirdre - 02-25-2013
(02-25-2013, 04:35 AM)Vareal Wrote: You guys write so much and make so many good points, I think I started a thread outside of my own skill level with RPing in general. Like I said earlier, I've never RP'd a fight before but I'm all for it.
As far as PvP as an RP mechanic, I was simply making a suggestion that, if, it's a good mechanic, that it could be incorporated into RP elements, not replace the traditional text based RP fights. It's just an avenue to explore.
And I 100% understand the fact that one class would be better over the other and that is also where I disagree with Siobhain about being able to adapt to your weaknesses or the strengths of another class. In PvP, there are simply classes that dominate the other classes no matter what and that depends on how the balancing is done.
Take Lineage 2 for example. When I started playing, the Abyss Walker class was the creme of the crop. After an expansion update and changes to the PvP balancing to make it "more fair" to the other classes, the Nuker classes (spell howler, wizard, necromancer etc.) became the one's to look out for. The Spell Howler was by far the best and could decimate any other class in single combat. So that does bring up a good point: how do you approach that? Until we know more about ARR's PvP system, there can be no educated guess but I think that, on a wide scale such as linkshell vs linkshell PvP battles, it could be an interesting element.
Again, I just think that PvP could keep certain elements...'alive' and 'fresh'. That's just me, I still feel a little out classed here. :p
Hahhaa, don't feel out classed at all~
Once things get up and running, you guys will mesh in nicely and everything will go smoothly ^-^ As always if you need any help or have question, just ask~
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - NKato - 02-25-2013
(02-25-2013, 04:32 AM)Deirdre Wrote:....(02-25-2013, 04:26 AM)NKato Wrote:(02-22-2013, 09:36 PM)Siobhain Wrote: Either way, I don't feel that a PVP duel detracts from Roleplay. In fact, RP almost always seem to be derailed when things devolve into text-based fights, even when done by the most expert roleplayers with the best intentions. People on the sidelines inevitably will try to get involved, and likely be ignored. People instinctively resort to self-preservation and almost no one can subconsciously agree on what a 'expert' level entails. People who normally roleplay as open novices, still manage somehow to elude veterans, and will continue to do so. And, along with everything else, it takes time. If it happens with a group of other people and those people aren't involved in the fight itself, they're stuck sitting there watching you pound out paragraph after paragraph, move after move, and if they try to get involved and -aren't- ignored, things can suddenly become uncomfortably imbalanced.
Bolded the part that happened to me when I was RPing with Shurin and we encountered Deirdre and Navei out in the boonies.
Tried to resolve it through OOC discussion in /tell, that went nowhere. I threw up my arms in exasperation and just played along what I could.
To be honest, examples like these are why I've decided to give up on trying to enjoy roleplay on Balmung. It's just not worth the hassle anymore.
As I mentioned further above, GMing will not be tolerated when it comes to anything RP, including sparring. The reason you were ignored was because of that fact, and because of the rude OOC comments you made.
You really have no argument here, if anything you are an example of why things go awry.
Wow. I'm not even going to dignify that blatant accusation with a response. All I was trying to do was illustrate the lack of an appropriate resolution to the issue while we were roleplaying at that point in time.
I don't like it when two actors can't even improvise to produce a good performance, and it ends up being a hilariously god-awful act that even a five-year old child could surpass.
That said, PVP should be taken as an optional, serious RP mechanic.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Vareal - 02-25-2013
(02-25-2013, 04:36 AM)Deirdre Wrote: Hahhaa, don't feel out classed at all~
Once things get up and running, you guys will mesh in nicely and everything will go smoothly ^-^ As always if you need any help or have question, just ask~
Thanks! I'll be sure to ask. I'll have tons of questions later, I'm sure.
(02-25-2013, 04:42 AM)NKato Wrote:(02-25-2013, 04:32 AM)Deirdre Wrote:....(02-25-2013, 04:26 AM)NKato Wrote:(02-22-2013, 09:36 PM)Siobhain Wrote: Either way, I don't feel that a PVP duel detracts from Roleplay. In fact, RP almost always seem to be derailed when things devolve into text-based fights, even when done by the most expert roleplayers with the best intentions. People on the sidelines inevitably will try to get involved, and likely be ignored. People instinctively resort to self-preservation and almost no one can subconsciously agree on what a 'expert' level entails. People who normally roleplay as open novices, still manage somehow to elude veterans, and will continue to do so. And, along with everything else, it takes time. If it happens with a group of other people and those people aren't involved in the fight itself, they're stuck sitting there watching you pound out paragraph after paragraph, move after move, and if they try to get involved and -aren't- ignored, things can suddenly become uncomfortably imbalanced.
Bolded the part that happened to me when I was RPing with Shurin and we encountered Deirdre and Navei out in the boonies.
Tried to resolve it through OOC discussion in /tell, that went nowhere. I threw up my arms in exasperation and just played along what I could.
To be honest, examples like these are why I've decided to give up on trying to enjoy roleplay on Balmung. It's just not worth the hassle anymore.
As I mentioned further above, GMing will not be tolerated when it comes to anything RP, including sparring. The reason you were ignored was because of that fact, and because of the rude OOC comments you made.
You really have no argument here, if anything you are an example of why things go awry.
Wow. I'm not even going to dignify that blatant accusation with a response. All I was trying to do was illustrate the lack of an appropriate resolution to the issue while we were roleplaying at that point in time.
I don't like it when two actors can't even improvise to produce a good performance, and it ends up being a hilariously god-awful act that even a five-year old child could surpass.
That said, PVP should be taken as an optional, serious RP mechanic.
Alright guys, enough. Lets not derail the topic please.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Sigyn Shieldbreaker - 02-25-2013
(02-25-2013, 04:42 AM)Vareal Wrote:
(02-25-2013, 04:42 AM)NKato Wrote:(02-25-2013, 04:32 AM)Deirdre Wrote:....(02-25-2013, 04:26 AM)NKato Wrote:(02-22-2013, 09:36 PM)Siobhain Wrote: Either way, I don't feel that a PVP duel detracts from Roleplay. In fact, RP almost always seem to be derailed when things devolve into text-based fights, even when done by the most expert roleplayers with the best intentions. People on the sidelines inevitably will try to get involved, and likely be ignored. People instinctively resort to self-preservation and almost no one can subconsciously agree on what a 'expert' level entails. People who normally roleplay as open novices, still manage somehow to elude veterans, and will continue to do so. And, along with everything else, it takes time. If it happens with a group of other people and those people aren't involved in the fight itself, they're stuck sitting there watching you pound out paragraph after paragraph, move after move, and if they try to get involved and -aren't- ignored, things can suddenly become uncomfortably imbalanced.
Bolded the part that happened to me when I was RPing with Shurin and we encountered Deirdre and Navei out in the boonies.
Tried to resolve it through OOC discussion in /tell, that went nowhere. I threw up my arms in exasperation and just played along what I could.
To be honest, examples like these are why I've decided to give up on trying to enjoy roleplay on Balmung. It's just not worth the hassle anymore.
As I mentioned further above, GMing will not be tolerated when it comes to anything RP, including sparring. The reason you were ignored was because of that fact, and because of the rude OOC comments you made.
You really have no argument here, if anything you are an example of why things go awry.
Wow. I'm not even going to dignify that blatant accusation with a response. All I was trying to do was illustrate the lack of an appropriate resolution to the issue while we were roleplaying at that point in time.
I don't like it when two actors can't even improvise to produce a good performance, and it ends up being a hilariously god-awful act that even a five-year old child could surpass.
That said, PVP should be taken as an optional, serious RP mechanic.
Alright guys, enough. Lets not derail the topic please.
 I think that whatever happened there is fairly an example of what I mean by people perceiving something as GMing whether or not it's intentional, based on their role in a situation. Not going into that, not going to continue responding in this thread beyond: PVP, if it is available, should be 'taken as an optional, serious RP mechanic' and one more-- not be continuously spoken down on in case new RP'ers want to at least try it and fear not being taken seriously for giving it a shot, or feel 'excluded' by existing, older members of the RPC that they may generally want to get to know. Saying "Everyone should do things their own way" is stifled by "But I think it's stupid and a waste of time and no one should do it."
Peer pressure is no bueno.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Eva - 02-25-2013
This is more of an aside, but I felt it was relevant.
I'm unfamiliar with the incident in dispute, however many times RPers will be - for whatever reason - enacting their combat/events in a place that is not actually where they are physically located. Â As we do not always have the luxury of RPing in a bubble, we have often stated that a particular out-of-the-way area is to be treated as a linkshell's private training base, to use an example from my own history.
I'm not assuming this was the case, but I just wanted to offer a possible explanation why one might be ignored if involving him-or-herself with RP in progress. Â A simple explanation that it was not open RP would probably have been more proper, if that was the case. Â Sometimes it's interesting to try and involve yourself with another group's ongoing RP scenario as it adds a feeling of realism and community to the thing. Â Other times events are treated as happening within a bubble for some reason or another.
To reiterate - because I know someone is going to be all, "zomg that's not what happened!!!" - I make no assumptions about how this transpired but only wanted to offer an alternative viewpoint. Â I don't really need nor wish to know the details since it seems like a bit of a sour subject anyway.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Momo - 02-25-2013
I've always been curious about these sorts of situations, and how everyone deals with them. Â I personally have noticed that there is a general consensus that you actual level and gear do contribute to your character, because I have seen a great deal many people choosing that this is how they want to play, and therefore making the rest of us choose a similar path so that it doesn't come into conflict. Â I am not placing negative or positive connotations on that, just stating it as an observation.
I personally am a fun-seeking, relaxed gamer, who enjoys RP, and can play the game for it's gaming quality, but am shit at getting to those top tier performance battles without someone guiding me most of the way. Â That being said, I didn't really get to have a character I would have liked, because most people seemed to regard your ability IC the same as your actual ability, and I think with the coming ARR, I will just say screw it and make the character I want without worry of others not taking him seriously enough because he doesn't have the best gear or skill set or whatevs anyone wants to figure in. Â Once again, this is more a declaration of personal freedom to do what one wants, rather than looking down on the practices previously taken for custom, I can say I had plenty of fun RPing on FFXIV, so no hard feelings at all.
All that being said, I guess I will fall on the side of having no interest in PvP as a means of resolution to any IC disagreements, but then again, I would be willing to allow others to make it policy for themselves and have no hard feelings. Â I suppose the fact that my character has always gotten along with most people, and is carefree by nature, has factored into a disinterest in even emotive battle, but figured I would cast a stone for one side anywho. Â I also looked back at previous info releases, and found that this ultimately will play little to no part unless in the heat of the moment, one person looks at the other and says, "Let's take this to the arena then!" and means that in a "let's take this outside" sort of manner, due to as said above, the PvP areas are few and designated as far as we know.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Rhio - 02-25-2013
The downside of reading through this thread, from my perspective, is that I think to myself "oh, I could write a column about this." Then I realized I already did.
Generally speaking, for PvP to work as a fully proper mechanic, you have to either be willing to accept an outcome based on which character/class/whatever is better suited to PvP matches, or you have to go in with an expectation of one party or the other winning and then take actions to back it up. Neither one creates a very compelling game state. It's not that PvP can't work well as an addition to RP, merely that it generally doesn't.
That being said, if there's a way to make it clear that your character is accomplished in PvP, it would make sense that you're a bit better in a duel against another player than someone who spends all of their time fighting monsters.
RE: PVP as an RP element...? - Moltove - 02-26-2013
(02-25-2013, 04:35 AM)Vareal Wrote: And I 100% understand the fact that one class would be better over the other and that is also where I disagree with Siobhain about being able to adapt to your weaknesses or the strengths of another class. In PvP, there are simply classes that dominate the other classes no matter what and that depends on how the balancing is done.EQ2 was the same way when PvP was introduced as Battlegrounds on PvE servers There was a Paladin and Mystic duo that dominated some grounds, actually. Some classes we're so OP that you had to throw waves at them, such as Brawler.
Take Lineage 2 for example...
But I feel confident in saying that it won't be as much of a case in a RP community, since it seems we all have different levels of progression, so everyone could, effectively be a wildcard. Well, mostly.
I like the points mentioned about backing up your character's taunts. While RP fighting and PvP could be a solution in either way,I think it's most important to actually...I dunno, not be a bitch about it and cop out. But that's a different thing entirely, probably built for a thread named "RP Etiquette"
Otherwise, as this thread has shown, I think there's an interest in PvP here, and it should remain a choice. Maybe not an all the time thing, but it's certainly nice to mix things up a bit, especially if you know you and your opponent are evenly matched. More importantly, it should be met with the same respect as we give each other when RPing normally.