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+--- Thread: New jobs for current classes (/showthread.php?tid=6312)
RE: New jobs for current classes - Erik Mynhier - 02-06-2014
I'm of the minority that thinks/hopes DRK will come to the GLD. All it would take for the GLD skills to work for a DDer job is a standing skills, like the Pally Oaths or the Monk Fist skills. That's my hope anyway. I just see the dichotomy as to good, and also as for the argument over the shield thing, keep in mind in most games in Final Fantasy's past, the DRK carried a shield, so that's my take on it.
RE: New jobs for current classes - Yssen - 02-06-2014
(02-06-2014, 05:25 PM)Black Hat Wrote:Â(02-06-2014, 05:21 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: I don't get why everyone has to tie DRK to two-handed swords. Cecil was a Knight before he became a Paladin, and he used one-handed swords and a shield! I mention Great Swords only as a way to tie in with existing classes. That's all.
I find it amusing that people are so stuck to the XI idea of the dark knight, but they're opposed to the XI idea of the blue mage. >_>;
I find it amusing that people cling to XI as some sort of standard for a series that has 14 plus games worth of lore!
I apologize for being catty, but please swing above the belt. Thanks!
No existing class uses Great Sword... yet. Stay tuned, one is more than likely coming, it has been teased since the Grand Company artwork of 1.0. Take a peek at the big Ul'dah poster here. Guy right under the banner.Â
I know. I know. It is just art work, but I would point out that if you look in the other the art with everyone and their dog charging behemoth, you can pick out each of the new i90 weapons. That art is also pretty old.Â
As for discussion of what weapon is most tied to DRK... Yes, we have had more than 14 games worth of lore and such to draw on.
Great Sword are by far the most common denominator, follow closely by Scythes and standard sword and shield. In the update of FFIV, Cecil used great sword as a DRK. Cloud in VII is also known for using a great sword, as are most of the SOLDIER 1st Classes (Zack, Genesis, etc). Most of them are described as being DRKs, at least for the setting of VII. Another prominent example of DRK GS use would be in FFT - War of the Lions. Fellswords are Great Sword.Â
Yes, scythes featured most prominently as a DRK signature weapon in XI. That is not the only place that was drawn from though. The DRK in FF2 uses a Scythe.
At any rate, my primary case for DRK using a scythe in XIV is because from a class ability stand point, MRD has most of what we would expect a DRK to do. That and the shift in animation from Axe to Scythe can be effectively the same. Such a move cuts down on the amount of new animations that would have to be added to the existing game, which would be a cost and labor saving measure.
I freely admit I could be wrong, we all could be. For all we know DRK could come from Pugilist or even Lancer. I just think that ability wise Scythe or Axe wielding DRKs make a bit more sense when you take a look at the skills of the base classes.
Quick side note on the arabian look of BLU that was prominent in XI. That look did not just come from XI. In every FF where there is not a named character with their own distinctive look, BLU pretty much looks like we see them in XI. Signature weapon mileage tends to vary wildly, but that look is pretty well set.Â
Oddly, there is only one thing that people now consider to be iconic to a job that came from XI. That would be DRGs having the wyvern pet. That was only ever a thing in XI. It appears in no other FF.
Anyway. More two gil and stuff to ponder. Whee!
RE: New jobs for current classes - Sounsyy - 02-07-2014
Sorry, but I'm hugely against the idea of tacking on classic final fantasy jobs to pre-existing classes for the sake of having everyone's favorite final fantasy job. It's completely limiting to the developers and it does a disservice to the job. Don't get me wrong, I think there are some classes right now that could support a second job.Â
Like Pugilist into Monk and Dancer. I think that'd work great. Your dances could be active during certain Pugilist stances. Like every time you're in Couerl stance you decrease an enemy's defense. Or every time you're in raptor stance your dance decreases enemy's resistance to cc'ing debuffs like stun. Idk, something like that.
Marauder into Warrior and Dark Knight. The framework for dark knight is already set up. Bloodbath and berserk sound like classic Soul Eater. Vengeance is spikes. Just add in a few more classic DRK spells and call it a day.Â
The problem I have with other classes though, is that the potential is extremely high that you'll have to wreck a currently existing class and job just to shove a square into a triangle hole. Like GLA into DRK?? How? I honestly have a very hard time thinking of how another job that isn't a tank is going to branch off of GLA without them having to completely tear down a perfectly fine job and rework the whole thing just to make people happy with a mediocre, half-thought out job tacked onto something that's currently good without too much tampering.
I know there's the suggestions of "oh just add in a DD oriented toggle job ability that reduces enmity." Okay, great. But you still have a "DD" job class that only has 4 weaponskills and only 1 combo. Ouch. And the rest of GLA abilities (with the exception of Fight or Flight) are all defensive abilities! What is Sentinel going to do now? So the obvious answer is make it so this all-powerful all-magical toggle ability makes it so that all 7 of GLA's defensive buffs are suddenly now damage buffs. So Sentinel will still be called Sentinel but it'll increase your attack power now. Cuz that buff makes sense with an ability name like Sentinel.Â
The problem now is, you've created a DD with a single spammable combo and 8 offensive buffs that will pretty much all have to increase attack power. And this magical toggle has made it so your ONE combo generates reduced enmity. Just so you don't take hate. Now you're OP because unlike every other DD you don't need to manage your enmity anymore.Â
Okay, no DD, so we make GLA's second job... also a tank? Then we run into the issue of, how do we make this new Job offshoot unique from PLD but not more or less powerful than PLD? How do we not make any changes to GLA and yet have a completely new tanking job with a new and different tanking style but only 5 abilities different?
I can see GLA into RDM... but it'd make such a boring and sad excuse for a RDM. And unless you alter all of GLA's job abilities, you're still left with the same debacle as before.Â
I don't know. If you're going to go to all of the trouble to design a new Job class, do it right and give it the full 50 levels worth of abilities it deserves. Don't tack a job we love on to something kinda sorta similar if you squint your eyes, then call it done. If you add a whole new class/job combo like they're supposedly doing with the highly anticipated Musketeer, you create new content! New quests! Something new to level for all of us who have all Lv50s already. New weapons! That's the best part, it let's the dev team come up with crazy new weapons that aren't in game yet. Beastmaster/Blue Mage with a Whip (like Quistis) yes please. Samurai with an actual katana instead of being branched off of Lancer and having a spear. Dark Knight with a great sword or a scythe or whatever the heck you want it to have. See where I'm going with this? It just breeds creativity and content and something fresh.
RE: New jobs for current classes - synaesthetic - 02-07-2014
Adding DRK to GLA would sort of render most of their abilities very situational, sure. Same as with Scholar. Do you think scholars are using Miasma, Bio II and the like in the middle of raid healing? Hardly. They're only using their DPS abilities when they aren't needed for healing.
DRK as a Job for GLA could "emergency" tank by dropping Darkside stance and using the standard Rage of Halone enmity combo. They'd suck at it compared to PLDs or WARs, but they'd still be better at it than MNKs or DRGs. Just like SCH and WHM DPS sucks compared to BLM or SMN, but they can do it if they need to.
RE: New jobs for current classes - Kieron Lohengrin - 02-07-2014
i approve of PUG -> DNC
simply because it'd mean that all those elegant waltzing buffbots were trained at one point by hamooooooon hoooooooolyfist
RE: New jobs for current classes - Tla - 02-07-2014
I think people are forgetting something here, unless I missed it....
Yoshi said some time ago that there's gonna be a system where jobs cross class to make a second job, and mentioned Red Mage as an example. I don't remember now what the cross job named exactly was. So, while certain classic jobs will be there, not necessarily they'll branch directly from a class. I imagine Red Mage, Blue Mage and similar others to be that way.
As for Pugilist, I'm strongly for Dancer too, I could really see it being PUG+CNJ. And would totally play it.
For Conjurer, I can see Geomancer, because I think the other option is gonna be dps and not another healer/support. If you think about it, the class questline is all about communing with nature and taking power from it, and a lot about using it also to attack and not only to heal. So restricting it to non-damage dealer roles would defeat that all a bit imho.
As for GLA, DRK, etc I sadly know nothing about <.<
RE: New jobs for current classes - allgivenover - 02-07-2014
(02-07-2014, 02:20 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: Do you think scholars are using Miasma, Bio II and the like in the middle of raid healing? Hardly. They're only using their DPS abilities when they aren't needed for healing.
Yes they are. In fact both of the healing jobs are able to DoT in Crystal Tower, Extreme Primals, and all five Turns of Coil (except the turn 3 death run and Turn 2 enrage strategy) when appropriate - and it's appropriate very frequently. If you're only healing when you could be DoTing as well then you're probably doing a fine job of healing, but you aren't being the best party member you can be.
You can even do long cast stuff if you're familiar with the fight and understand the enemy attack patters enough, that's how I get away with using Holy in Turn 4.
Edit: Contributing to the topic of the thread. I really, really want Time Mage to be the second job for Conjurer. Crossing my fingers~
RE: New jobs for current classes - synaesthetic - 02-07-2014
Key words: "in the middle of raid healing."
Yes, when the tank steps inside the conflagration, I hit Cleric Stance and dot the conflag, throw Energy Drain, Ruin, etc to try and help burn it down quickly. But once the conflag is gone, it's back to casting Lustrate, Physick, Succor, Sacred Soil and Adloquium.
DRK would function the same way. Garuda EX would be a fantastic example. Your DRK is DPSing Garuda during the plume phase. When the cyclone phase starts, the MT grabs Garuda, the OT grabs Suparna and the DRK drops Darkside and grabs Chirada, tanking it temporarily while the DPS burn it down. This would prevent double Wicked Wheel from happening on the tank, and give a third person to Provoke the Spiny Plume.
Once the sisters are dead, your DRK activates Darkside and starts dealing damage again, using her DPS combos instead of her enmity combo.
RE: New jobs for current classes - Sounsyy - 02-07-2014
I get what you're saying Synaesthetic, but doesn't that seem like kind of a waste of class to you? Or at least a disappointment for all those wanting for an actual Dark Knight?Â
Yay! Here's the DRK you've all been waiting for: you get your 5 job abilities (1 of which is a toggle that you'll need to keep on at all times) and you get one dd weaponskill to spam repeatedly and the rest of your abilities are completely useless to you unless the other one or two tanks in your party die.
At least on SCH you can always throw up bio, miasma, etc every fight and it helps out a little. Sure it's not a lot, but it's helpful. Some content you can just let your pet heal. A DD class that can only throw up defensive buffs and nothing else isn't really a fair comparison to what SCH and WHM do utility wise.
RE: New jobs for current classes - Ildur - 02-08-2014
You could have the toggle change how certain skill work, too. No idea how that would work specifcially, because if I had to design a class/job I'd probably make something like "Unicorn Mage: he's a mage that shoots magic unicorns!" and then I'd get fired.
RE: New jobs for current classes - TheLastCandle - 02-08-2014
I want a greatsword wielding class, but I don't particularly give a damn whether or not it has DRK as a possible job. I just want two-handed swords.
RE: New jobs for current classes - Kailia - 02-08-2014
I think what I'd like to see is follows:
Conjurer
Green Mage - A dps class built around the wand and shield. A melee caster that uses elemental debuffs to damage enemies. A balanced choice much like the arcanists who get summoner for dps, and scholar for healing. Ideal subclass: Gladiator
Thaumaturge
Red Mage -Â A no brainer. A class that uses both black and white magic. Ideal subclass: Conjurer
Gladiator
Dark Knight -Â Lot of people want this. Would be a fantastic opposite for paladins. And no brainer what subclass for it: Thaumaturge
Marauder
Berserker -Â The class shifts from being a tank, to being an outright AOE DPS. Berserkers also need to move rather quickly so possible subclass: Pugilist
Archer
Musketeer - Drop the bow, hello musket! Sub Class: Lancer
Lancer
Beastmaster -Â A class that takes control of a beast to use against enemies. Obvious subclass: Arcanist
Pugilist
Ninja -Â A master of shadow and assassination. But throwing stars as well. Subclass: Archer
RE: New jobs for current classes - Asgarn - 02-08-2014
(02-08-2014, 06:10 AM)K Wrote: I think what I'd like to see is follows:
Conjurer
Green Mage - A dps class built around the wand and shield. A melee caster that uses elemental debuffs to damage enemies. A balanced choice much like the arcanists who get summoner for dps, and scholar for healing. Ideal subclass: Gladiator
Thaumaturge
Red Mage -Â A no brainer. A class that uses both black and white magic. Ideal subclass: Conjurer
Gladiator
Dark Knight -Â Lot of people want this. Would be a fantastic opposite for paladins. And no brainer what subclass for it: Thaumaturge
Marauder
Berserker -Â The class shifts from being a tank, to being an outright AOE DPS. Berserkers also need to move rather quickly so possible subclass: Pugilist
Archer
Musketeer - Drop the bow, hello musket! Sub Class: Lancer
Lancer
Beastmaster -Â A class that takes control of a beast to use against enemies. Obvious subclass: Arcanist
Pugilist
Ninja -Â A master of shadow and assassination. But throwing stars as well. Subclass: Archer
I mostly agree with your choices, however there are some I would raise issue with.
1. Green Mage sounds like a solid idea, but may I ask how a wand can be used for melee attacks? Those things are effectively twigs with inherent magical properties and would be liable to snap rather easily. Of course, they could always introduce maces, then this would work
(NOTE: I prefer Geomancer to Green Mage, but it's a cool idea.)
2. The Musketeer. This might be me being totally derpy, but was I misinformed when I was told Musketeer would be a standalone starter class? (Plus, if it was a job requiring a soul crystal, I would rather they introduce Thief as a base class and pair Thief with Archer for Musketeer. Due to the whole "scout-like" Musketeer concept.)
3. This isn't so much an issue as wondering why you chose the combination to make the class. When you mentioned the Beastmaster, I was rather baffled as to why you chose Arcanist to accompany Lancer. Now whilst Arcanist have pets, granted, Carbuncle and the Egis (cool band name, huh?) are nothing like the pets that a Beastmaster would have at their disposal.
Then there's the whole thing of Beastmasters historically either having an axe or a bow. For this reason, I would rather Beastmaster is Marauder/Archer to unlock. (Whilst on the topic, I would love Ranger to make an appearance, as someone mentioned before. The antithesis of the Bard, using de-buffs, etc. Archer and Lancer would work nicely for Ranger.)
Pointless flaw picking aside! (I meant nothing by it, just constructive criticism.)
The one class I would love love love love LOVE to see would be the Puppetmaster. It's a rather underrated class as a whole, not many people listing it as their favourite, but it was by far mine. If they added the Thief class as a base class (please!), then you could mix Thief and Thaumaturge or even Thief and Arcanist to make this class work.
Imagine the storyline! You must battle for control over your automaton before it controls you! ;D Well... Maybe not that. But y'know. GIEF PUP.
RE: New jobs for current classes - Norna - 02-08-2014
Musketeer/Gunner is already planned to be the third class of Limsa Lominsa. I would guess one of its jobs will be Corsair. I would also venture to suggest Blue Mage (think X-2 Gun Mage), with shooting abilities that copies an enemy ability and then one that fires it.
Red Mage is a job that Yoshi-P wants to put in, and currently he suggested that it'll either get a new base class, or it will be a super-job by combining two jobs. If it goes with a new base class, I think a magically inclined Fencer class (that uses rapiers) would work.
If Dark Knight will be based on Cecil, it will use sword and shield. So it will probably branch from Gladiator. If so, it will probably have stances/traits that make actions consume HP/decrease max HP by ??% in exchange for DPS. It will maybe be a hybrid Tank/DPS job (Yoshi-P spoke of hybrid roles in the future).
From Conjurer, I think Green Mage will show up. Think a combination of Green Magic/Druid/Geomancer/Elementalist from previous Final Fantasies. It would be hybrid Healer/Support.
From Thaumaturge I think we will see a crowd controlling mage with some DPS, such as Purple Mage, the reason why I say Purple instead of Time Mage, is because Yoshi-P has already said that we wont get Haste/a/ga/ja. Anyway, Purple Mages would get more crowd controlling abilities, and would be considered hybrid Support/DPS.
Marauder is a hard one, but if I get to guess, I think Viking would probably fit well. If Warriors are from the heartlands of the continent, then having berserking pirates have the other job would make sense for a Limsa job. It would combine the aspects of previous Final Fantasy Vikings, Berserkers and Pirate jobs that can be used with a giant axe.
Archer would probably become Ranger, if we keep with the Gridania theme. Unlike Bard, who provides a hybrid role in buffing allies, Rangers provide support by debuffing enemies. Otherwise, if Ishgard is involved, I could see crossbow wielding Arbalist, which borrow some from previous FFs but is pretty new. The reason why I mention Ishgard is because crossbows would be pretty effective against the hides of dragons.
I think everyone wants Lancer to get a pet wyvern/dragonet, but it is pretty hard with the established lore. There is the Valkyrie job from previous games,which you could have said pet be the ghost of a slain dragon, and thus explain why it isn't around all the time and why Dragoons don't kill it on sight.
Pugilist could work with Dancer, and unlike Bard, who buff allies, Dancers could debuff enemies, making a party with both very successful. They both could even have passive traits that buff their own abilities if they're in the same party (something like: 10-20% buff to all abilities if partied with a Dancer/Bard).
With how they went for the historical meaning of Paladins (guardians of palace and palatial residents), I could see Ninja and Samurai branch from the same class. The base class would have Katana main hand and Kunai in off hand (They have both Throw and Counter, but changes one or the other depending on job). Then, for Ninja, it becomes Ninjatou and Shuriken, while for Samurai it becomes Katana and Wakizashi.
RE: New jobs for current classes - Aldotsk - 02-08-2014
This is how I see in the results when they will add the following jobs in the future.
Ranger - Relies on DEX/VIT and small STR
Disciple: 30 Musketeer, 15 Archer
Weapons: Long Ranged Barrel Rifle/Shotgun/Bow
Corsair - Relies on DEX/MND/PIE
Disciple: 30 Musketeer, 15 Arcanist
Weapons: Short Barrel Gun/Cards
Bombardier - Relies on DEX/STR and small VIT/PIE
Disciple: 30 Musketeer, 15 Marauder
Weapons: Hand Cannon/Short Barrel Cannon/Grenade
Dark Knight - Relies on STR/VIT and small INT
Disciple: 30 Marauder, 15 Thamaturgist
Weapons: Scythe
Red Mage - Relies on STR/INT and small PIE
Disciple: 30 Gladiator, 15 Arcanist
Weapons: Rapier/Shield
Dancer - Relies on STR/MND and small PIE
Disciple: 30 Pugilist, 15 Conjurer
Weapons: Maracas/Tambourines
Blue Mage - Relies on INT/MND and small PIE
Disciple: 30 Thamaturgist, 15 Arcanist
Weapons: Orb
Blade Master - Relies on STR/DEX and small VIT
Disciple: 30 Gladiator, 15 Pugilist
Weapons: Dual One Handed Swords/Two Handed Sword (Great Sword)
Thief - Relies on DEX and small STR/VIT
Disciple: 30 Pugilist, 15 Musketeer
Weapons: Dual Daggers/Knives
Samurai - Relies on STR/DEX and small VIT
Disciple: 30 Gladiator, 15 Marauder
Weapons: Great Sword/Great Katana
Ninja - Relies on DEX/INT and small VIT
Disciple: 30 Gladiator, 15 Acher
Weapons: Katana/Kunai and Talisman
Geomancer - Relies on DEX/INT and small PIE
Disciple: 30 Pugilist, 15 Thamaturgist
Weapons: Mace/Flails and small shields
Puppet Master - Relies on DEX/MND and small PIE
Disciple: 30 Arcanist, 15 Pugilist
Weapons: Marotte and Strings
Beast Master/Rune Master - Relies on DEX/MND and small PIE
Disciple: 30 Arcanist, 15 Musketeer
Weapons: Shotgun/Double Barrel Shotgun
Arithmetician - Relies on INT and small PIE/DEX/MND
Disciple: 30 Arcanist, 15 Archer
Weapons: Ruler and Abacus
------
If there are new DoW coming out in future expansions:
New Disciple of War/Magic Classes
Ashigaru - Possible step to become Ninja/Samurai.
Smuggler - Possible step to become Thief and other classes.
Researcher - Possible step to become newer type of casting classes.