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+--- Thread: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? (/showthread.php?tid=9094)
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - KitKat - 12-01-2014
(11-29-2014, 06:32 AM)Faye Wrote: Second problem with a lot of DRG role-players I've seen firsthand is the idea both IC and OOC that jumping on things is the best way to kill them. I'm not talking giant dragons, I'm talking smaller and speedier targets like other people... There's a reason that IRL few martial arts and combat styles involve jumping out of the air at people... it leaves you vulnerable and there's really no benefit to outweigh that. There was an IC DRG once who joined my FC for all of an hour until he was told IC that jumping was a silly tactic when fighting other people began to yell at us OOC about that remark that had been made in RP, promptly quit the FC and apparently to this day goes around telling everyone not to RP with us lol. If you want to have your character jump around a lot, and even if you want him to be presumed to be good at it and be a competent fighter, that's fine--but you need to be able to handle criticism on the matter, as many people may not find jumping 20 feet in the air to be a useful or believable fighting tactic.
This really bothered me. RL logic really should be discarded in a fantasy game. I would have left the FC too if people were trashing my RP like that. How is it a silly tactic when every single one of your Dragoon-given skills is a jump or a jump-enhancer?
Jump is the iconic dragoon (dragon slayers) skill in the entire Final Fantasy universe. It shouldn't be discredited like that.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Oli! - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 01:13 AM)TheCurls Wrote:(11-29-2014, 06:32 AM)Faye Wrote: Second problem with a lot of DRG role-players I've seen firsthand is the idea both IC and OOC that jumping on things is the best way to kill them. I'm not talking giant dragons, I'm talking smaller and speedier targets like other people... There's a reason that IRL few martial arts and combat styles involve jumping out of the air at people... it leaves you vulnerable and there's really no benefit to outweigh that. There was an IC DRG once who joined my FC for all of an hour until he was told IC that jumping was a silly tactic when fighting other people began to yell at us OOC about that remark that had been made in RP, promptly quit the FC and apparently to this day goes around telling everyone not to RP with us lol. If you want to have your character jump around a lot, and even if you want him to be presumed to be good at it and be a competent fighter, that's fine--but you need to be able to handle criticism on the matter, as many people may not find jumping 20 feet in the air to be a useful or believable fighting tactic.
This really bothered me. RL logic really should be discarded in a fantasy game. I would have left the FC too if people were trashing my RP like that. How is it a silly tactic when every single one of your Dragoon-given skills is a jump or a jump-enhancer?
Jump is the iconic dragoon (dragon slayers) skill in the entire Final Fantasy universe. It shouldn't be discredited like that.
I would personally chalk this up to a fundamental difference in RP preferences and style. Some people are okay with explaining things with Magic or just taking things as they are, while others would rather explain things with a little more detail using real-world contexts or build upon them in a similar format.
Personally I'm a person that enjoys the second camp, but there's nothing particularly wrong with either. Some people prefer to go with what the game gives them, while others take things into their own hands. While there are situations in which the two can (and will) clash, that's part of the reason why it helps to surround yourself with people who think the same way about RP that you do.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - McBeefâ„¢ - 12-01-2014
Yeah every bit of FFXIV lore says that dragoons are super good at killing dragons. When they jump they are basically anti-dragon guided missiles. Even their armor and weapon is covered in ailerons to help them zero in on a target.
The heavensward trailer in particular indicates that there are a lot of dragoons, and they are the sharpest spear in Ishgard's arsenal against the dravanian threat.
Now, I would agree that playing a master dragoon, able to do all those things, could get a little hairy for some RPers. However complaining about your average dragoon being able to jump dozens of meters in the air is silly. You might as well complain about thaumaterges making fire from their hands, or conjurers healing wounds.
It's a fantasy game. Some adventurers can take hits from a primal, others can punch through steel, or summon ice and lightning. In comparison, being able to jump really high and land accurately on a target seems pretty pedestrian.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Oli! - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 04:41 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Yeah every bit of FFXIV lore says that dragoons are super good at killing dragons. When they jump they are basically anti-dragon guided missiles. Even their armor and weapon is covered in ailerons to help them zero in on a target.
The heavensward trailer in particular indicates that there are a lot of dragoons, and they are the sharpest spear in Ishgard's arsenal against the dravanian threat.
Now, I would agree that playing a master dragoon, able to do all those things, could get a little hairy for some RPers. However complaining about your average dragoon being able to jump dozens of meters in the air is silly. You might as well complain about thaumaterges making fire from their hands, or conjurers healing wounds.
It's a fantasy game. Some adventurers can take hits from a primal, others can punch through steel, or summon ice and lightning. In comparison, being able to jump really high and land accurately on a target seems pretty pedestrian.
I think the point that the person that brought this up was making was not that it was silly to say that Dragoons can jump, but that jumping fifty feet in the air might not be the best tactic when fighting things that are smaller, faster, and don't fly.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - ArmachiA - 12-01-2014
I think Faye pretty much nailed it with the whole people tend to flock to the Dragoon class who want to be super overpowered and AMAZING AT ALL FIGHTING. "I can take 10 people at a time!" types.
That doesn't mean all Dragoon players are Mary Sues, it's just Mary Sues are more prone to go there.
Take heart, Dragoon players! This will stop once Dark Knight is implemented
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aya - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 05:44 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: I think Faye pretty much nailed it with the whole people tend to flock to the Dragoon class who want to be super overpowered and AMAZING AT ALL FIGHTING. "I can take 10 people at a time!" types.
That doesn't mean all Dragoon players are Mary Sues, it's just Mary Sues are more prone to go there.
Take heart, Dragoon players! This will stop once Dark Knight is implemented
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Crisiet - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 05:44 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: I think Faye pretty much nailed it with the whole people tend to flock to the Dragoon class who want to be super overpowered and AMAZING AT ALL FIGHTING. "I can take 10 people at a time!" types.
That doesn't mean all Dragoon players are Mary Sues, it's just Mary Sues are more prone to go there.
Take heart, Dragoon players! This will stop once Dark Knight is implemented
I laughed because it's true.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Warren Castille - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 04:41 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Yeah every bit of FFXIV lore says that dragoons are super good at killing dragons. When they jump they are basically anti-dragon guided missiles. Even their armor and weapon is covered in ailerons to help them zero in on a target.
The heavensward trailer in particular indicates that there are a lot of dragoons, and they are the sharpest spear in Ishgard's arsenal against the dravanian threat.
Now, I would agree that playing a master dragoon, able to do all those things, could get a little hairy for some RPers. However complaining about your average dragoon being able to jump dozens of meters in the air is silly. You might as well complain about thaumaterges making fire from their hands, or conjurers healing wounds.
It's a fantasy game. Some adventurers can take hits from a primal, others can punch through steel, or summon ice and lightning. In comparison, being able to jump really high and land accurately on a target seems pretty pedestrian.
One has to ask whether the title makes the dragonslayer. You only becomes a "dragoon" by killing a dragon. The means of how you manage that aren't dictated by the lore, we just tend to see them wielding spears.
The only "issue" I've got with people roleplaying dragoons is how long jump would take to resolve. There's no propulsion beyond your feet, so if you are leaping fifty feet into the air, it does seem a bit ridiculous that several seconds would have to pass by before someone could resolve the action, not to mention that it becomes tantamount to guided flight if you're able to maneuver and strike a moving, smaller target. Leaping headlong onto a dragon's shoulder and skewering it, a la Cid in Advent Children? That's right on target (hee). But having a hypothetical dragoon leap dozens of feet into the sky and landing several seconds later onto a lalafell rogue who is aware of the attack pushes realms of believability.
Plus you then fall into the issue of "well why don't they just jump all the time and become invincible?" issue, because I've never seen anyone who RPs with combat abilities RP cooldowns.
Of course, I'm weighing worst-case scenarios here. I've never run into issues with anyone using a lance. I know Lancers/Dragoons jumping is an FF trope and all, but it still just seems wrong to me for folks to be able to just casually spring from the ground to rooftop heights as a free move action equivalent. Why would anyone ever walk anywhere again?
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Oli! - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 05:44 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: I think Faye pretty much nailed it with the whole people tend to flock to the Dragoon class who want to be super overpowered and AMAZING AT ALL FIGHTING. "I can take 10 people at a time!" types.
That doesn't mean all Dragoon players are Mary Sues, it's just Mary Sues are more prone to go there.
Take heart, Dragoon players! This will stop once Dark Knight is implemented
As someone who wants to make their Roegadyn into a Dark Knight THIS MAKES ME INFINITELY SAD.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Berrod Armstrong - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 08:23 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:Ooh!Â(12-01-2014, 04:41 AM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: Yeah every bit of FFXIV lore says that dragoons are super good at killing dragons. When they jump they are basically anti-dragon guided missiles. Even their armor and weapon is covered in ailerons to help them zero in on a target.
The heavensward trailer in particular indicates that there are a lot of dragoons, and they are the sharpest spear in Ishgard's arsenal against the dravanian threat.
Now, I would agree that playing a master dragoon, able to do all those things, could get a little hairy for some RPers. However complaining about your average dragoon being able to jump dozens of meters in the air is silly. You might as well complain about thaumaterges making fire from their hands, or conjurers healing wounds.
It's a fantasy game. Some adventurers can take hits from a primal, others can punch through steel, or summon ice and lightning. In comparison, being able to jump really high and land accurately on a target seems pretty pedestrian.
One has to ask whether the title makes the dragonslayer. You only becomes a "dragoon" by killing a dragon. The means of how you manage that aren't dictated by the lore, we just tend to see them wielding spears.
The only "issue" I've got with people roleplaying dragoons is how long jump would take to resolve. There's no propulsion beyond your feet, so if you are leaping fifty feet into the air, it does seem a bit ridiculous that several seconds would have to pass by before someone could resolve the action, not to mention that it becomes tantamount to guided flight if you're able to maneuver and strike a moving, smaller target. Leaping headlong onto a dragon's shoulder and skewering it, a la Cid in Advent Children? That's right on target (hee). But having a hypothetical dragoon leap dozens of feet into the sky and landing several seconds later onto a lalafell rogue who is aware of the attack pushes realms of believability.
Plus you then fall into the issue of "well why don't they just jump all the time and become invincible?" issue, because I've never seen anyone who RPs with combat abilities RP cooldowns.
Of course, I'm weighing worst-case scenarios here. I've never run into issues with anyone using a lance. I know Lancers/Dragoons jumping is an FF trope and all, but it still just seems wrong to me for folks to be able to just casually spring from the ground to rooftop heights as a free move action equivalent. Why would anyone ever walk anywhere again?
One of my 2,837,183,163,891,361,731 characters is a dragoon in training -- so I had to really sit and work out how the jumping aspect of his combat was going to work out.Â
At first there was the actual training, where I had to bullshit stuff about using aether to augment the legs, push off, blah blah -- but that stuff is easily explained in a world where aether can be a convenient go to answer. HOWEVER -- having him actually LEARN to do it was a fun thing to play off, because he was terrible at first. His first attempts at jumping were so bad, he just hopped and fell flat on his face. He'd endure horrible leg day pains following each session -- the process was just overall exhausting.
Eventually he learned to take off into a jump -- but good lord did his aim need work. His first few jumps involved him haplessly launching himself into trees, off of seaside cliffs and into second story inn windows (he did confirm that the baker was cheating on his wife...). It was a very slow process, but now he's learned to do about two controlled jumps in a row. After that, it takes him a bit of time to recover and gather the strength to do more. Even so, he prefers to use the technique against aerial targets because jumping toward something on the ground has never worked out for him. He's just not skilled enough.Â
I dunno, I enjoy playing off that 'learning from scratch' thing -- and in cases where I play a character possessing the skill, I either find a way to limit his use of it to a sphere within reason, or provide it with enough openings/weaknesses/complications to disallow it from becoming something super duper powerful that can beat everything/one/babbu/dargon.
...that being said, I haven't seen MUCH complaining about dragoons on the whole in RP. In PvE there's the whole bad dragoon/dead dragoon thing, I guess...but the only gripes I've seen about PC ones have been very much isolated.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Cato - 12-01-2014
There's always that one class in an MMO that is negatively stereotyped by role-players. It just so happens that dragoons drew the short straw in that regard. What I find hilarious, however, is that many of those criticising the perceived 'mary sue' nature of the class seem to have no problem putting their civilian/unskilled characters in dangerous situations in some of the most volatile locations across Eorzea only to repeatedly walk away without a scratch.
Which is something I find a lot more jarring than someone choosing to play a powerful combatant in a heroic fantasy setting.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Aya - 12-01-2014
Given the nature of other disciplines in FF, Dragoon and its jumping ability hardly seems like a leap (see what I did there? ^^) We have fire leaping from hands, the ability to throw rocks, or restore life force with invisible aether, and even the ability of monks and ninja to utilize aether to aid their melee attacks. It doesn't seem like a shock that Dragoons, practiced as they are in an "aerial" form of combat to fight dragons, would be able to leap and control their descent in such a way as to land an attack.
That's not to say that its realistic (its not), but neither are many of the fights I watch, nor is magic itself, nor is any of the vast myriad of things that people wave their hands and exclaim "aether" about. Given that its a firm and fast part of FF lore, and cemented in FF XIV even more firmly through explicit character abilities for a job that is known to be the most common in the realm, it seems even more silly to dismiss the idea out of hand.
As to why don't they just jump instead of walk? Why don't ninja in ninja-anime constantly leap or sneak to get around? Its probably because walking is casual, and efficient both mentally and physically. Something like leaping, even with aetherial assistance, would still no doubt take a great deal of physical exertion and mental focus. Not something you would just do to get around like a two-legged rabbit (Bugs Bunny, Dragon Slayer).
So, IÂ say, let dragoons be dragoons.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Oli! - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 04:21 AM)Oli! Wrote: I would personally chalk this up to a fundamental difference in RP preferences and style. Some people are okay with explaining things with Magic or just taking things as they are, while others would rather explain things with a little more detail using real-world contexts or build upon them in a similar format.
Personally I'm a person that enjoys the second camp, but there's nothing particularly wrong with either. Some people prefer to go with what the game gives them, while others take things into their own hands. While there are situations in which the two can (and will) clash, that's part of the reason why it helps to surround yourself with people who think the same way about RP that you do.
That thing where everything disagrees and we spiral off-topic and the conversation goes nowhere.
It is happeningggg.
(I'm not trying to be the Thread Police or anything, but we're getting dangerously close to the fires that have consumed previous threads on similar subjects.)
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Faye - 12-01-2014
(12-01-2014, 01:13 AM)TheCurls Wrote:(11-29-2014, 06:32 AM)Faye Wrote: Second problem with a lot of DRG role-players I've seen firsthand is the idea both IC and OOC that jumping on things is the best way to kill them. I'm not talking giant dragons, I'm talking smaller and speedier targets like other people... There's a reason that IRL few martial arts and combat styles involve jumping out of the air at people... it leaves you vulnerable and there's really no benefit to outweigh that. There was an IC DRG once who joined my FC for all of an hour until he was told IC that jumping was a silly tactic when fighting other people began to yell at us OOC about that remark that had been made in RP, promptly quit the FC and apparently to this day goes around telling everyone not to RP with us lol. If you want to have your character jump around a lot, and even if you want him to be presumed to be good at it and be a competent fighter, that's fine--but you need to be able to handle criticism on the matter, as many people may not find jumping 20 feet in the air to be a useful or believable fighting tactic.
This really bothered me. RL logic really should be discarded in a fantasy game. I would have left the FC too if people were trashing my RP like that. How is it a silly tactic when every single one of your Dragoon-given skills is a jump or a jump-enhancer?
Jump is the iconic dragoon (dragon slayers) skill in the entire Final Fantasy universe. It shouldn't be discredited like that.
If we discard all RL logic, how will we all have a similar idea of how to RP and how the world functions IC? How can we deduce how our characters would react mentally and even physically that matter if we don't take into account RL knowledge of psychology, physics, chemistry, sociology, biology, etc.? What's the standard if we can't base these simple, incredibly important things on RL laws we all understand and know? When your character is sad, you know he may cry or frown because that's what people do IRL. When you character jumps, you assume he won't float off into the sky forever because on earth IRL, we have gravity that prevents that.
At least some dosage of RL logic is necessary to determine things like cause and effects and what your character is capable of. It's safe to assume that the setting--even of most fantasy games--is based at least loosely on the real world at some point in time unless specified otherwise, and thus it's typically safe to assume things function like real life unless we're told/shown otherwise.
Sure, if it's a fantasy game, obviously a small measure of RL logic must be discarded. "Jump is the iconic dragoon (dragon slayers) skill in the entire Final Fantasy universe." As you said yourself, canonically this skill is meant to be used against dragons, large flying targets, not against other people or Beastmen or what have you, as that's what dragoons are trained and meant to do.
I don't really think it's "trashing" someone's RP by any stretch to have a character criticize another character IC. RP is pointless without conflict and people playing a wishy-washy character who agrees 100% with everything others tell them, ever, is boring beyond words. My character's opinions are her own, not mine. Sometimes they happen to align, sometimes they don't. To get so upset OOC about something said IC makes me think the person doesn't really understand RP, or their character is just a self-insert thus making them personally hurt by any IC criticism, or they're trying to play a Mary Sue and are offended when someone doesn't find their character to be the coolest thing ever--or perhaps a combination of any of those.
None the less, someone disagreeing about the semantics of how a class is meant to be RPed is a fair reason to leave if they please, and while it may be polite to try to discuss it and come to an understanding first it's by absolutely no means necessary. I don't and would never hold that against someone. But I do think there's a difference between simply leaving, and leaving and verbally attacking everyone on your way out (and afterward).
As such, it's why I mentioned this person is an example of why some people may dislike dragoon RPers.As others have said, it boils to down to different opinions of philosophies of how to RP. No matter what your opinion, throwing insults and profanity at someone who doesn't share your opinion on a matter so harmless is never justified, and as such I don't think I'll ever find this person's actions excusable.
RE: Why is there constantly stigma with Dragoon? - Warren Castille - 12-01-2014
I figured out why I have a hard time, personally, justifying Jump as an ability.
Conjurers draw energy from the land to channel life magic.
Thaumaturges focus aether into elements.
Monks explore spiritual energy through their chakras.
Ninja draw on elemental bases through their mudra to effectively-channel aether.
Dragoons jump good because they killed a dragon.
...wait, wha?
Dragoons are the only martial-based class without a convenient handwave as to how they work. Warriors have an inner beast and paladins are trained to make full use of armor and shield. Dragoons just... suddenly gain the ability to fly briefly and swiftly as a result of Ishgard crediting them with a kill.
I try not to think too hard about it. It's never been an issue for me, and I hope it remains that way!