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When is a character too skilled? - Printable Version

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RE: When is a character too skilled? - Val - 09-07-2015

(09-03-2015, 02:50 PM)Oli! Wrote:
(09-03-2015, 02:48 PM)Leggerless Wrote: Remember to have a clean discussion, follow rules, etc. etc. I'm just a poster, not a mod.

Here's the question I'm going to ask:

How many areas can a person be skilled in before they are considered "skilled in too many areas?"

Have at thee, RPC!


Subjective.

You can be infinitely skilled if you want. Most people won't like it though.

Having more than one field of expertise is too skilled for some people.

Not to mention that it's more than just "areas," if you're literally the Best Bard Ever, are you too skilled even if you trip and fumble and fall on your own sword in every other category ever?

Depends on who you ask.

There's also the concept of Skill vs. Age. Is it more plausible to be the Best Arcanist in the Whole Wide World at the ripe old age of 89, or the tiny babby age of 13? Who knows. You'll get plenty of varying opinions on all of this though.

The can of worms has been OPENED.

I pretty much agree with all of this. It's subjective and you're never going to find one answer to suit everyone. I fall into the Skill vs. Age camp as a good indicator. A lot of people like to argue in FF's behalf that their characters are 16-17-20ish and can hold their own and be super powerful, so why can't we? My response to this is always simply "Your character isn't the main character. They're just a person in a world full of many others like them."

But that's just my thoughts on the matter. As long as someone can manage to balance something in some way, I don't really care what they do. If I'm given a plausible reason for a character to have the abilities/skills that they do, I'll roll with it.

RE: When is a character too skilled? - S'imba - 09-07-2015

In my opinion the more skills you give a character the less interesting they become...not just to others but to the player themselves. They end up with nowhere to grow, nothing to challenge themselves with or overcome. To be this swiss army knife of a character that has the right tool for the right job at every situation can only be interesting for so long. 

I'll admit I have an extremely skilled character I wrote as an attempt to get more people involved in RP to act as a method to drive other peoples characters to grow and get involved. Despite him serving his purpose he is still really bland to me for the exact reasons above. I never really get him involved other than giving other characters the motivation or extra tools they need to beat a challenge.

In the end it comes to the point that all villains have to come to an end as well as the heroes. The faster you push yourself to that point the sooner that will occur. Otherwise the rp just gets repetitive and old. 

Basically I feel a character is too skilled when they no longer have any area to grow in. Though sometimes it is hard for a player to accept that a character has reached this point.

RE: When is a character too skilled? - Warren Castille - 09-08-2015

(09-07-2015, 01:52 AM)Val Wrote: A lot of people like to argue in FF's behalf that their characters are 16-17-20ish and can hold their own and be super powerful, so why can't we? My response to this is always simply "Your character isn't the main character. They're just a person in a world full of many others like them."

Put this on a banner and hang it in the rafters. There's sometimes a lot of conflict that stems from this sentiment. There's nothing wrong with being the main character in your own story, but RP is a collaborative effort. As soon as you begin to interact with others, you cease to be the main character. Some people resist or resent this, and feel entitled to being comparatively powerful or capable because their written-and-vetted-by-one-person backstory says they should be.

It's selfish to do that, and impacts a cooperative environment in a negative way. Of course, there's some folks who have no issue being relegated to subordinate or sidekick roles when in the presence of suitably powerful characters, but in my experiences that's the exception to the rule.

RE: When is a character too skilled? - -no longer matters- - 09-08-2015

(09-08-2015, 12:17 PM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(09-07-2015, 01:52 AM)Val Wrote: A lot of people like to argue in FF's behalf that their characters are 16-17-20ish and can hold their own and be super powerful, so why can't we? My response to this is always simply "Your character isn't the main character. They're just a person in a world full of many others like them."

Put this on a banner and hang it in the rafters. There's sometimes a lot of conflict that stems from this sentiment. There's nothing wrong with being the main character in your own story, but RP is a collaborative effort. As soon as you begin to interact with others, you cease to be the main character. Some people resist or resent this, and feel entitled to being comparatively powerful or capable because their written-and-vetted-by-one-person backstory says they should be.

It's selfish to do that, and impacts a cooperative environment in a negative way. Of course, there's some folks who have no issue being relegated to subordinate or sidekick roles when in the presence of suitably powerful characters, but in my experiences that's the exception to the rule.
I personally think a "good" roleplay group is kind of like reading a Justice League comic, where eventually every character gets the spot light at some point and people don't mind rotating that and being a background or side kick. 

But for public events and BIG events you pretty much have to accept you are a face in the crowd (unless arranged otherwise.).

Back onto being too skilled.

Here's how I view it.
Like in DnD and other table tops the more you branch out the less specialized you become, the less potent you become at every skill set. You sacrifice being a mast by becoming a jack of all trades. The issue is NO ONE RPs that.

Now there as always are exceptions to this, like some skills feed into another and if you can use lore to justify it, I don't see it being any different than being a Paragon class in DnD.. but they have to reasonably flow together and you still have to be limited in power level. 

wish I had more time to explain, but hopefully people got the jist of what I meant.

RE: When is a character too skilled? - 13uddy - 09-08-2015

(09-08-2015, 12:41 PM)War Bear Wrote: Here's how I view it.
Like in DnD and other table tops the more you branch out the less specialized you become, the less potent you become at every skill set. You sacrifice being a mast by becoming a jack of all trades. The issue is NO ONE RPs that.

*raises hand*


I do!  Well, I try to for the most part.  I prefer playing a character that isn't really a master of anything, and while he might be better than some people at something, he is nowhere near an expert at these things.  The things my characters ARE experts of are usually small trivial things, like being a connoisseur of sweets or something generally "useless" like that.  Who really needs to know from what region a particular sugar or fruit used in the sweets originates?

My characters still have their own stories to tell, they just aren't the "chosen one" or anything like that of the overall story.  To use a comic book metaphor, others can play Superman or Batman, but I'm happy trying to play Jimmy Olsen or Alfred.

RE: When is a character too skilled? - V'aleera - 09-08-2015

"You're just a regular person"

My problem with this logic is that we're shown in the lore time and time again nobodies from nowhere rising up to the challenge and making themselves special/powerful.

Examples include but are not limited to: 

Ysayle, Raubahn, Aymeric, WoL, Thancred, J'moldva, the good Crystal Braves, Edda, etc.

Eorzea is a land where ordinary people have extraordinary potential; it's literally in the air.

RE: When is a character too skilled? - Oroban - 09-08-2015

Here's a little fuel for the fire; Why is it almost always accepted for a protagonist to be skilled, but not TOO skilled (i.e. needing friends and such), but it's a hugely popular trope that the villains are just that much better at so much? I mean, I know it's obviously to do with the whole theme of needing a nigh insurmountable obstacle for the heroic character to overcome...but doesn't the villain's existence in itself point out that yes, someone can be insanely skilled? (just that it might not be you. And that through the power of narrative plot, you can kick their ass anyway.)

tldr: Fiction is full of people who are crazy skilled. It generally means nothing in a narrative sense unless you want it to, and in an RP setting wanting it to and giving consent mean more than any six hundred page backstory regaling the tales of how he once killed two dragons with one punch.

RE: When is a character too skilled? - OverlordOutpost - 09-08-2015

(09-08-2015, 04:14 PM)V Wrote: "You're just a regular person"

My problem with this logic is that we're shown in the lore time and time again nobodies from nowhere rising up to the challenge and making themselves special/powerful.

Examples include but are not limited to: 

Ysayle, Raubahn, Aymeric, WoL, Thancred, J'moldva, the good Crystal Braves, Edda, etc.

Eorzea is a land where ordinary people have extraordinary potential; it's literally in the air.
There's a bit of truth to that, but behind each of those people there's army of folks who are either so unspecial they aren't even given names, or only existed to die.   Ysayle had legions of unnamed heretics, Raubahn the unknown Twin Flames, Aymeric had tons of bodies near him, the good Crystal Braves are at the moment just really loyal folks, and Edda was special because of how terrible she was at what she wanted to do.

Those are all major characters in some form.  And it's fine to have a few major characters, it's fine to be good at something (or so terrible at it you kill your friends), it's fine to have potential.  Not everyone needs to be a civilian.

The issue is when everyone is a major character, and they start stumbling over each other.  It works in D&D, smaller groups, and FCs because everyone is roughly the same strength in different ways.  You get a good balance of everyone being awesome at something everyone else isn't and they can cover each other.  But once you move out into Open RP, and everyone is a IC level 50 swordsman swinging whirling blades of death, it's less going on a balanced adventure, and more absolutely stomping someone else's content.

There's been a few times by simple merit of being on the lower end of the adventurer scale of power that I'm just absolutely locked out because everyone else is Major character level.  There's RP events made with the idea that everyone going there is already incredibly powerful in some form.  They can shoot off Fire 3 while another person Holmgang's the big beasties breathe, and the archer shoots out it's eyes with precise marksmanship.  Meanwhile, the novice adventurer can maybe shoot a Blizzard 1 and take copious notes during that fight, safely from the massive boulder they're cowering behind.

What it ultimately comes down to is balancing the overall party strength, recognizing your audience, then adapting.

You become too skilled when the environment you're in suffers from your skill.

On the note of my personal beliefs, I'm of the Age vs. Skill camp.  The older you are, the more I feel you're allowed to be skilled in without veering in Main Character or unfun territories.

RE: When is a character too skilled? - SaintEaon - 09-08-2015

When you use your character to completely one up the other player. Strange example incoming:

I was ERPing this one time with this girl I'd met and a Futa, and no matter what I posted the Futa would just do shit in more extreme detail with demensions that didn't make sense/weren't possible, and did so in such away that I basically got blocked out of an RP I'd set up. 

There's a difference between say my character who's a trained Dark Knight and assumed to be quiet dangerous because he does have some violent tendencies and is a firm believer in absolute Justice/ensuring "evil" is dealt with, so when this skilled warrior walks up to a Merchant who's being a twat and when the Merchant gives him an attitude or pulls a knife, and my character ends up breaking his arm or something or running him out in someway, its not always cool to do to someone (because it ends someone's RP perhaps prematurely), it makes sense. 

Where as when someone's just soooooo amazing in the time it took my character to shatter someone's femur, they summoned turned invisible then with ninja abilities showed up and had a knife at my neck whilst also evading the two other people who were there making sure I didn't push too hard and kill the poor sod with the shattered femur, that gets a little silly. You assumed my character wouldn't notice a ninja, which he may not have, but not only did he not notice you trying to sneak up often in broad day light because the skill says you were "hidden" you then drew blades and put me on the defensive without even assuming I had help who might be well versed in killing Ninja.

RE: When is a character too skilled? - Cato - 09-08-2015

Uh...well this thread certainly took a turn for the strange and bizarre...

RE: When is a character too skilled? - SaintEaon - 09-08-2015

(09-08-2015, 05:42 PM)Graeham Wrote: Uh...well this thread certainly took a turn for the strange and bizarre...
 I sincerely hope I contributed to that ^.^, I also didn't read literally any posts above mine, I read the topic and gave my opinion :p

RE: When is a character too skilled? - Val - 09-08-2015

(09-08-2015, 12:17 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Put this on a banner and hang it in the rafters. There's sometimes a lot of conflict that stems from this sentiment. There's nothing wrong with being the main character in your own story, but RP is a collaborative effort. As soon as you begin to interact with others, you cease to be the main character. Some people resist or resent this, and feel entitled to being comparatively powerful or capable because their written-and-vetted-by-one-person backstory says they should be.

I think far too often people forget that they're writing and playing with other people, and instead are trying to write at them. When you realize that it's meant to be a collaboration and no one is really meant to have the spotlight, I think it becomes a lot easier to simmer your character down and just have fun with it rather than being mad about getting beaten in a story and so on and so forth.

RE: When is a character too skilled? - V'aleera - 09-08-2015

But isn't that much more of a meta game issue than a "this character is too skilled" issue? The core root of the problem is someone simply wanting all the attention and to never lose; character capability is simply a symptom resulting from that mindset, not the cause of it.

RE: When is a character too skilled? - SaintEaon - 09-08-2015

(09-08-2015, 05:57 PM)Val Wrote:
(09-08-2015, 12:17 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Put this on a banner and hang it in the rafters. There's sometimes a lot of conflict that stems from this sentiment. There's nothing wrong with being the main character in your own story, but RP is a collaborative effort. As soon as you begin to interact with others, you cease to be the main character. Some people resist or resent this, and feel entitled to being comparatively powerful or capable because their written-and-vetted-by-one-person backstory says they should be.

I think far too often people forget that they're writing and playing with other people, and instead are trying to write at them. When you realize that it's meant to be a collaboration and no one is really meant to have the spotlight, I think it becomes a lot easier to simmer your character down and just have fun with it rather than being mad about getting beaten in a story and so on and so forth.

In some people's defense its hard too though. For instance in an RP I've often become the center of attention not because I was doing anything particularly spectacular or anything, but because usually two of the key characters way of interracting with mine promoted him to the spot light. For instance if some guy was creeping on a girl my character would have no problem putting a blade to his neck and telling him if he ever saw him around the girl again, no one would ever be seeing him again. One of my two characters would recognize this as my character being extreme and dangerous and needing to calm down before he hurt someone. The other wouldn't get involved, he would note his disagreed with the harshness, but as a general rule the guy was a problem who needed to be dealt with. 

So we end up with, this other victim guy, my character, a guy who staunchly believes what my character is doing is wrong, thus causing a scene giving my character a spot light, but because of their friendship not immediately being willing to fight him, and yet another character who while he disagrees with the action thinks there should be SOME action, but is unwilling to get his own hands dirty to do so, so instead he'd just let his friend do the morally wrong thing, but effective thing. In that regard I can become a "main character" very, very easily because of the types of relationships my character has, its easy for him to become the center of attention. That doesn't mean he necessarily hindering anyone else's RP. 

I do think however, that there are people (there's an entire FC of these people but I wont name names, PM me if you want to know though I'd love nothing more than to continue my Crucification of them as this shit mixed with metagaming, godmodding and their shit has now driven several friends from RPing entirely on FFXIV) that RP with people who think their characters are Gods, then also make themselves gods to compete and don't realize why this is a problem. Hell Godly characters persay aren't even an issue, they're annoying and not very fun to play with, but a super strong, terrifying character who's RP'd by someone who's considerate of others isn't necessarily someone who's so skilled they have to be avoided. Its the RPer who has all that "power" and just wants to feel mighty.

RE: When is a character too skilled? - Warren Castille - 09-08-2015

(09-08-2015, 06:02 PM)Valeera Wrote: But isn't that much more of a meta game issue than a "this character is too skilled" issue? The core root of the problem is someone simply wanting all the attention and to never lose; character capability is simply a symptom resulting from that mindset, not the cause of it.

Fair. I admit my tabletop biases come to the forefront when discussing this kind of thing, on top of it all. I've always felt that conflict is the core of engaging roleplay - be it social, or physical, or political, we need something to overcome or aspire to in order to get anything out of it. This is a personal feeling, obviously, but it's where I come from. When engaging in a plot and someone develops an issue, having one person being able to solve for all issues makes it unfun for everyone not also playing Superman. A sword-swinging researcher-by-night who grew up in a Syndicate household might be capable of fighting, knowing and negotiating through any quagmire that might come up, but is that fun to RP with? Is that fun to RP?

I guess the reduced answer to the question is "When you no longer need to interact with anyone to get anything done."