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+--- Thread: Quotation marks in /Say (/showthread.php?tid=13497)
RE: Quotation marks in /Say - Unnamed Mercenary - 09-21-2015
(09-21-2015, 11:39 AM)Aya Wrote: My choice of /say and /em comes down to two factors: do I want the *Character Name* first in the resulting sentence, or is there any particular clutter reason to use one or the other. Otherwise I treat them identically when IN CHARACTER and will freely use prose in /say. Because of that, the quotation marks really are a necessity ^^
What a fun morning of "RP-Style" posts! It actually is an intriguing topic!
Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:I do break a "rule" of English grammar in all of this though. Putting the punctuation inside the quotes. Hate it. Perhaps that's the computer science influence, but it just seems so silly to do it within RP because I'm effectively just using the quote marks to denote spoken text. They're self-contained.The punctuation helps describe the tone and hence the sound of the dialogue, therefore it belongs within. The sentence containing the quotation may be a simple declarative: He asked a question.
Adding in the actual question does not change the tone of the original sentence, but the question itself should be indicated to mark its intent and spoken tone: He asked, "How was your weekend?" is a statement about what "he" asked. Whereas: He asked, "How was your weekend"? is a question about what "he" asked.
With regards to full stops, this is also another Europe vs US matter I think too isn't in? ^^
(I keep having to fix this, someone remind me not to discuss grammar before I have had my coffee please!)
I don't think I'd quite explained what I meant, but your post was a perfect reminder of that.
In my original post, I really only mean for the completion or continuation of dialogue. I'll try to provide better examples. When punctuation that would include a tone is used, I would DEFINITELY include it, despite having been taught that it's a big no-no.
What I prefer:
Franz said, "This is a thing".
Franz said, "This is a thing", as he did some other action.
Franz looked confused. "Is this really a thing?" he wondered out loud.
What I've been taught is correct:
Franz said, "This is a thing."
Franz said, "This is a thing," as he did some other action.
Franz looked confused. "Is this really a thing," he wondered out loud.
I've tried to bold the areas I'm talking about, but bolded punctuation's still tiny. It might be easier to say I prefer to encapsulate all aspects of the dialogue inside of the quotes, regardless of whether the punctuation is correct.
RE: Quotation marks in /Say - Aya - 09-21-2015
(09-21-2015, 12:34 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: I've tried to bold the areas I'm talking about, but bolded punctuation's still tiny. It might be easier to say I prefer to encapsulate all aspects of the dialogue inside of the quotes, regardless of whether the punctuation is correct.I know the placement of full stops is disputed between English and American, not sure about the commas! What you are doing is at least against American practice, but it may follow English style. I hope you are ready to start spelling things like "Theatre", "Centre", and "Armour", and the letter 'z' is pronounced "zed"!
RE: Quotation marks in /Say - Kage - 09-21-2015
(09-21-2015, 12:34 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: What I prefer:Yeah... I'm totally eye-twitching at the former and prefer the latter.
Franz said, "This is a thing".
Franz said, "This is a thing", as he did some other action.
Franz looked confused. "Is this really a thing?" he wondered out loud.
What I've been taught is correct:
Franz said, "This is a thing."
Franz said, "This is a thing," as he did some other action.
Franz looked confused. "Is this really a thing," he wondered out loud.
RE: Quotation marks in /Say - Shoshopu - 09-21-2015
(09-21-2015, 09:18 AM)Ignacius Wrote: Not in /s, it's been implied by the format that you're saying something.
Then again, I almost always emote, so that people have some flavor to the dialogue.
Aww, that's a bit limiting! Just because you're doing it in /say doesn't mean you can't put an emote stuff in there too!
Basically I always write my in-character posts like I'm writing something. I'll use /em if the way I would like to write my post happens to begin with Shopu's name, for whatever reason- like, if for the flow of the sentence, it would be better for the subject to go before the dialogue, or if she is actually performing an action before she says something...
Code:
/em bent down and picked up the small box. "Oh, what, you mean this?"
(another person emotes in response)
/s "It's my collection of shiny rocks!" she said, opening it. They were shiny and beautiful and whatnot.as opposed to, say,
Code:
/em bent down and picked up the small box. "Oh, what, you mean this?"
(another person emotes in response)
/em opened it. "It's my collection of shiny rocks!" They were shiny and beautiful and whatnot.For this particular instance I want to convey that she's opening it as she's speaking, so it's just more elegant to do it the emote-in-say way. How would you even do that in /em... "/em opened it and as she opened it she said,"
It's just the way that's most fun for me. I'm very particular about things like the order things get expressed in, word flow, word choice... so sometimes it takes me a little bit to formulate my response. Length depends on setting, too. And putting *'s around actions just reminds me of my embarrassing forum RP days when I was a tween. I love using emotes (as in, the animations; is that what you meant, Ignacius? oops) and facial expressions a lot too, which on Shopu is unfortunate because she's so small people rarely notice. And I leave the chat messages for those turned off because they, well, mess up my flow.
RE: Quotation marks in /Say - Lydia Lightfoot - 09-21-2015
IMO, not putting quotations around your dialogue is the same as not caring where you've written there, their, or they're, regardless of the context. What might be a microscopic time-saver or simple laziness on the part of a writer does a disservice to those who would read what was written. If they can't bother at least appearing to be making an effort in the technical side of their writing, can the reader simply assume out of nowhere that for some reason the writer will put a greater effort into their actual storytelling and character development? I don't think so.
RE: Quotation marks in /Say - Shoshopu - 09-21-2015
(09-21-2015, 01:34 PM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: IMO, not putting quotations around your dialogue is the same as not caring where you've written there, their, or they're, regardless of the context. What might be a microscopic time-saver or simple laziness on the part of a writer does a disservice to those who would read what was written. If they can't bother at least appearing to be making an effort in the technical side of their writing, can the reader simply assume out of nowhere that for some reason the writer will put a greater effort into their actual storytelling and character development? I don't think so.
This is your opinion and you're free to have it! but this strikes a little nerve with me so I'm going to share my own thought on it; that's a lot to assume about a person before you get to know them. Fyrilsunn's player (who does have an account here but he's not one to post in discussion threads generally, so whatever) is a very smart man with a rich imagination, and puts a lot of effort into storytelling and character development, but he makes little spelling errors like that, and it certainly doesn't mean he doesn't care. He tends to spell things phonetically, on the whole, which leads to things like the wrong their/there/they're, etc. Personally I attribute that to a visual impairment he had during his formative years when most kids are cementing the reading basics they'll carry with them forever or whatever, but that's neither here nor there, I guess.
I suppose it's also a matter of what players prioritize. Even though he spelled something wrong, I know what he meant, and there's still a longer post around that misspelled word that tell a lot about what's going on. We're both working towards improving, of course, but to him it's relatively small potatoes to the rest of the RP experience. Just because he doesn't catch all of his spelling mistakes doesn't mean he's not caring about what's going on with the story and his character. It could mean that's all he cares about to the point he doesn't care about the spelling. :p
This got long and personal, but the basic thing I wanted to express here is that there are definitely examples to the contrary of your assumption of people who write in a way that appears lazy- I personally know one. (as an aside, I feel like people interpret post length as being a direct indicator of rage levels- is that just me? 'cause I'm just long-winded and want to ensure I'm understood) I feel like it applies tangentially to the topic, at least...
edit: wow had a huge typo towards the beginning there that completely changed the meaning of what I was tryn'a say, hope nobody caught that
RE: Quotation marks in /Say - FreelanceWizard - 09-21-2015
(09-21-2015, 01:34 PM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: IMO, not putting quotations around your dialogue is the same as not caring where you've written there, their, or they're, regardless of the context. What might be a microscopic time-saver or simple laziness on the part of a writer does a disservice to those who would read what was written. If they can't bother at least appearing to be making an effort in the technical side of their writing, can the reader simply assume out of nowhere that for some reason the writer will put a greater effort into their actual storytelling and character development? I don't think so.
Uh, wow. That's an awfully aggressive stance over an extremely minor technical choice that has zero effect on the reader, since /say is implicitly speech. I'd actually argue that for strict speech in /say, quotation marks are redundant; the channel makes it clear what's being said.
If you're using /say for other purposes, by all means, use quotation marks around speech there. I think it's exceedingly harsh to say that those who don't are lazy writers who put no effort into their RP, however.
RE: Quotation marks in /Say - Dante Abigor - 09-21-2015
le snipped for glitchy goodness. Gotta stop phone posting.
RE: Quotation marks in /Say - Dante Abigor - 09-21-2015
(09-21-2015, 01:34 PM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: IMO, not putting quotations around your dialogue is the same as not caring where you've written there, their, or they're, regardless of the context. What might be a microscopic time-saver or simple laziness on the part of a writer does a disservice to those who would read what was written. If they can't bother at least appearing to be making an effort in the technical side of their writing, can the reader simply assume out of nowhere that for some reason the writer will put a greater effort into their actual storytelling and character development? I don't think so.
I would REALLY love to rant about this, but being that it is an opinion I will simply respond with another.
Correct or aesthetically pleasing sentence structure and habit does not a good Rper make. I know a LOT of Rpers, and have been exposed to a lot of different styles, and I can say that in my own personal experience whether or not a person has used quotations to identify whether or not they were speaking when nothing else was happening in a sentence did not take away from future Rp, nor did it make someone who did in comparison seem like a better or worse Rper.
Im still getting kinda ranty so I will leave it at that, but I just wanted to share my own opinion on your response.
RE: Quotation marks in /Say - Lydia Lightfoot - 09-21-2015
(09-21-2015, 01:49 PM)Shoshopu Wrote: This is your opinion and you're free to have it! but this strikes a little nerve with me so I'm going to share my own thought on it; that's a lot to assume about a person before you get to know them. Fyrilsunn's player (who does have an account here but he's not one to post in discussion threads generally, so whatever) is a very smart man with a rich imagination, and puts a lot of effort into storytelling and character development, but he makes little spelling errors like that, and it certainly  doesn't mean he doesn't care. He tends to spell things phonetically, on the whole, which leads to things like the wrong their/there/they're, etc. Personally I attribute that to a visual impairment he had during his formative years when most kids are cementing the reading basics they'll carry with them forever or whatever, but that's neither here nor there, I guess.
I suppose it's also a matter of what players prioritize. Even though he spelled something wrong, I know what he meant, and there's still a longer post around that misspelled word that tell a lot about what's going on. We're both working towards improving, of course, but to him it's relatively small potatoes to the rest of the RP experience. Just because he doesn't catch all of his spelling mistakes doesn't mean he's not caring about what's going on with the story and his character. It could mean that's all he cares about to the point he doesn't care about the spelling. :p
This got long and personal, but the basic thing I wanted to express here is that there are definitely examples to the contrary of your assumption of people who write in a way that appears lazy- I personally know one. (as an aside, I feel like people interpret post length as being a direct indicator of rage levels- is that just me? 'cause I'm just long-winded and want to ensure I'm understood) I feel like it applies tangentially to the topic, at least...
edit: wow had a huge typo towards the beginning there that completely changed the meaning of what I was tryn'a say, hope nobody caught that
I understand what you're saying. A person who shows up to their job interview for a position in business management and smells of body odor, is wearing clothes with holes and tears, hasn't brushed their hair, and shows up fifteen minutes late with no excuse... well, they might have all the necessary skills to be a great business manager, but they're going to have a hard time getting somebody to hire them because of how they present themselves.
No, roleplaying isn't work. I'll just pre-empt anybody who's going to try and steer my analogy down that nonconstructive segue. This happens everywhere in life. How we present ourselves to others matters.Â
If someone with this issue genuinely cares to improve, it can be done. Practice, practice, practice - and not in a roleplay environment where pressure exists to respond quickly. Everyone can learn and adapt. It's one of the great powers of sentience.
It's fine if someone doesn't care to do that, of course! They also need to accept that it might limit their opportunities. There are plenty of roleplayers, so RP will happen regardless.
RE: Quotation marks in /Say - Alothia - 09-21-2015
(09-21-2015, 12:34 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:(09-21-2015, 11:39 AM)Aya Wrote: My choice of /say and /em comes down to two factors: do I want the *Character Name* first in the resulting sentence, or is there any particular clutter reason to use one or the other. Otherwise I treat them identically when IN CHARACTER and will freely use prose in /say. Because of that, the quotation marks really are a necessity ^^
What a fun morning of "RP-Style" posts! It actually is an intriguing topic!
Unnamed Mercenary Wrote:I do break a "rule" of English grammar in all of this though. Putting the punctuation inside the quotes. Hate it. Perhaps that's the computer science influence, but it just seems so silly to do it within RP because I'm effectively just using the quote marks to denote spoken text. They're self-contained.The punctuation helps describe the tone and hence the sound of the dialogue, therefore it belongs within. The sentence containing the quotation may be a simple declarative: He asked a question.
Adding in the actual question does not change the tone of the original sentence, but the question itself should be indicated to mark its intent and spoken tone: He asked, "How was your weekend?" is a statement about what "he" asked. Whereas: He asked, "How was your weekend"? is a question about what "he" asked.
With regards to full stops, this is also another Europe vs US matter I think too isn't in? ^^
(I keep having to fix this, someone remind me not to discuss grammar before I have had my coffee please!)
I don't think I'd quite explained what I meant, but your post was a perfect reminder of that.
In my original post, I really only mean for the completion or continuation of dialogue. I'll try to provide better examples. When punctuation that would include a tone is used, I would DEFINITELY include it, despite having been taught that it's a big no-no.
What I prefer:
Franz said, "This is a thing".
Franz said, "This is a thing", as he did some other action.
Franz looked confused. "Is this really a thing?" he wondered out loud.
What I've been taught is correct:
Franz said, "This is a thing."
Franz said, "This is a thing," as he did some other action.
Franz looked confused. "Is this really a thing," he wondered out loud.
I've tried to bold the areas I'm talking about, but bolded punctuation's still tiny. It might be easier to say I prefer to encapsulate all aspects of the dialogue inside of the quotes, regardless of whether the punctuation is correct.
As someone who teaches writing dialogue as a part of my creative writing classes, the latter is the correct form, in that punctuation should be inside of the quotation marks. Â At least that's how we do it here in good 'ol VA.
RE: Quotation marks in /Say - Arrelaine - 09-21-2015
I only use quotations in /em to distinguish dialogue. If I'm just in /say, I consider it already dialogue, since I don't use it for emoting.
RE: Quotation marks in /Say - Unnamed Mercenary - 09-21-2015
Oh, I definitely know it is. ...which is why I'll continue doing the latter in everyday typing. It's always just thrown me up a bit when trying to handle multiple sentences worth of dialogue within a single "emoted" sentence.
So as an example:
/em briefly skimmed the menu, "well do I want the pork of the beef? Or maybe I'd rather get a soup and salad instead. What if I actually just want a sandwhich?" as he continued to go through all the options.
I know I'm supposed to use " [..] 'just a sandwich,' [...] ," but it's always felt odd after years of "programming text 1", "programming text 2", "programming text 3". Especially when the meaning carries over just the same.
RE: Quotation marks in /Say - Shoshopu - 09-21-2015
(09-21-2015, 02:00 PM)Calliope Cloverbloom Wrote: I understand what you're saying. A person who shows up to their job interview for a position in business management and smells of body odor, is wearing clothes with holes and tears, hasn't brushed their hair, and shows up fifteen minutes late with no excuse... well, they might have all the necessary skills to be a great business manager, but they're going to have a hard time getting somebody to hire them because of how they present themselves.
This is actually basically the argument I use with him whenever he's being particularly cantankerous and contrary (I mean that in the most loving way) when I point out a typo he's made. I'm only so particular with the way I emote because I understand that writing style leaves an impression on the RP as a whole. I set a high standard for myself so my biggest struggle actually is not being a complete ass to him behind the screen about it xD (since he's almost always sitting right behind me, I never point it out ingame unless it's really, REALLY funny)
But he is improving. FFXIV is actually his first written-RP format (he's used to tabletop stuff, see) so taking that into consideration I think he's doing pretty good. What I basically wanted to impart though is, that assumption can be a pretty big one. Writing mistakes do leave an impression, but if you would otherwise be interested in the RP were it not for those mistakes, I say give that person a chance to show you how much they care about the other things you care about. (I mean this last part generally, not to you specifically)
RE: Quotation marks in /Say - Shoshopu - 09-21-2015
(09-21-2015, 02:08 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: Oh, I definitely know it is. ...which is why I'll continue doing the latter in everyday typing. It's always just thrown me up a bit when trying to handle multiple sentences worth of dialogue within a single "emoted" sentence.
So as an example:
/em briefly skimmed the menu, "well do I want the pork of the beef? Or maybe I'd rather get a soup and salad instead. What if I actually just want a sandwhich?" as he continued to go through all the options.
I know I'm supposed to use " [..] 'just a sandwich,' [...] ," but it's always felt odd after years of "programming text 1", "programming text 2", "programming text 3". Especially when the meaning carries over just the same.
I think using the question mark after sandwich would be acceptable; the punctuation here can imply something about the tone of his voice. At least, I would infer something about the tone of his voice, based on whether there was ? or a , there.
Sometimes rules can be ignored a little bit if they get in the way of what you're trying to convey. That's the fun thing about art!