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+--- Thread: Sex-work and Harmful Language (/showthread.php?tid=14177)
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Gharen - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 02:21 AM)PkThunda Wrote: It is, however, not your say in which words should and should not be accepted.
Pk, personal crusade or not, sometimes people should take their own advice. And realize that not everyone will agree with you whether you like it or not. And sometimes it's just better to agree, to disagree.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - PkThunda - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 03:04 AM)Val Wrote:(11-06-2015, 03:00 AM)V Wrote:(11-06-2015, 02:56 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: I think that the reason they are slurs is because they are meant to be insulting.
My comment was directly addressing the poster arguing that technical definition and lack of ill intent validate the use of a word with no regard for context.
If I were to use any of the more modern/well-known terms listed on that page to simply describe a person with no intention of insulting them, does that make the utterance acceptable?
In this day and age when you can just say "Man that's crazy" and insult someone, nah. You're never going to find the use of a word that doesn't insult someone, and therefore wouldn't be acceptable. I suggest ignoring those people and doing your thing. If you go without purposely trying to insult people, then you can simply say "You know, sorry. I didn't mean to insult you" and move on. The people that continue to stay angry after that? Not worth your time to begin with; they're looking for reasons to be pissed off about it.
That would be the ideal situation, Val.
If people would start apologizing for using said words and stop using them, this thread would not exist; instead, however, I have come across very defensive responses to information on it to the point of mockery and personal attacks.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - McBeefâ„¢ - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 03:10 AM)PkThunda Wrote:(11-06-2015, 03:04 AM)Val Wrote:(11-06-2015, 03:00 AM)V Wrote:(11-06-2015, 02:56 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: I think that the reason they are slurs is because they are meant to be insulting.
My comment was directly addressing the poster arguing that technical definition and lack of ill intent validate the use of a word with no regard for context.
If I were to use any of the more modern/well-known terms listed on that page to simply describe a person with no intention of insulting them, does that make the utterance acceptable?
In this day and age when you can just say "Man that's crazy" and insult someone, nah. You're never going to find the use of a word that doesn't insult someone, and therefore wouldn't be acceptable. I suggest ignoring those people and doing your thing. If you go without purposely trying to insult people, then you can simply say "You know, sorry. I didn't mean to insult you" and move on. The people that continue to stay angry after that? Not worth your time to begin with; they're looking for reasons to be pissed off about it.
That would be the ideal situation, Val.
If people would start apologizing for using said words and stop using them, this thread would not exist; instead, however, I have come across very defensive responses to information on it to the point of mockery and personal attacks.
I apologize can we close the thread.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Harmonixer - 11-06-2015
What the fuck
how the fuck
seriously what the fuck
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - McBeefâ„¢ - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 03:12 AM)Harmonixer Wrote: What the fuckThis subforum has rules, friend.Â
how the fuck
seriously what the fuck
Be careful.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - PkThunda - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 03:09 AM)Gharen Wrote:(11-06-2015, 02:21 AM)PkThunda Wrote: It is, however, not your say in which words should and should not be accepted.
Pk, personal crusade or not, sometimes people should take their own advice. And realize that not everyone will agree with you whether you like it or not. And sometimes it's just better to agree, to disagree.
As I said in my original post, no one has to agree to sexwork to be respectful of its members, and it is the say of the group that is being affected by said language to say whether or not it is harmful. The group is question is one I am part of, and know others who are also part of, who have been asking for a change.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - LiadansWhisper - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 03:08 AM)Pastry Army Wrote: First of all, petitioning to change "Prostitute" to "Happy Sparkle Fun Time Gals." That is infinitely more fun to say.Â
And second, thank you for bringing that up because it had completely slipped my mind despite the fact that you are in fact totally right. At the end of the day no matter how you spin it Society is going to find a way to shame the title placed on the occupation because Society as a whole, though loving to promote sex and sexual conduct, has a strange fascination to beat down and bash any and everything that actually takes it a step further and indulges in it at any degree.
We have a really weird relationship with sex. On paper, we like to pretend that we're really open-minded and there's nothing wrong with sex (I mean, if you leave aside the whackjobs on Facebook who you are somehow related to and are probably wearing tinfoil hats as we speak). But in practice, it seems like American society is generally really weirded out by the idea of total strangers having sex or people making money off of it. And, of course, there's the fear factor - you hear the stories about the girls who are beaten by their pimps, the girls who are murdered by serial killers, the strippers who end up with stalkers or who lose custody of their kids because they strip, etc.
There's also the contingent of, "DEAR GOD THINK OF THE CHILDREN" that show up every few years, either about children being trafficked or video games - pick your poison, the kids are being corrupted.
Some cities are just now coming to grips with how to treat underaged children (I said girls, but really, it's both boys and girls) who have been trafficked into prostitution, rather than calling them prostitutes (which implies the ability to consent and actual consent) and taking them to jail. We are messed up in the head, no lie.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - V'aleera - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 03:04 AM)Val Wrote: "You know, sorry. I didn't mean to insult you"
If we're going to talk about the sensitivity of modern society, we should not neglect the tendency of many people to take offense at causing offense. The above response is the correct one, but in my experience it is not the common one. Rather, the common response is to become defensive and proceed to double down and escalate the situation.
Quote:Exhibit A: The N word and rap songs.As a white person that used to live in north Philadelphia, liberal use of this word when you are not among the ethnic group that has reclaimed it is an effective way to knock a few decades off your life expectancy.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - PkThunda - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 03:11 AM)McBeefâ„¢ Wrote: I apologize can we close the thread.
While I appreciate the gesture, this is a problem beyond your response. There are others in various channels in the community who have come across the issue of mockery on the subject.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Oli! - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 03:08 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: Someone just slut-shamed in this thread on the first page, calling a former guild member a "ho."Â
Subjective, as are most language-related things.
There's a difference between slut-shaming or whatever and being a well-meaning shit to people you know.
To some people, the use of the N-Word to refer to friends is offensive and horrible, while to other people, it's used in the context of bonding and taking back the word. Just as the N-Word is often used to mean "my friend," "Ho" and related sexually derogatory words are often used to refer to people who are sexually desirable in a positive way.
So without knowing the context and intent of the utterance, we can't definitively state a word or its usage as being solely in one camp or the other, without the risk of mass thought-control.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - McBeefâ„¢ - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 03:16 AM)V Wrote:Quote:Exhibit A: The N word and rap songs.As a white person that used to live in north Philadelphia, liberal use of this word when you are not among the ethnic group that has reclaimed it is an effective way to knock a few decades off your life expectancy.
You'd be suprised, as a white person who's unit in the army was about 50% black. Though strangely enough I've been called it many more times than I've ever called someone else it. Like all words, the intent is based on context and who you're telling it to. I don't suggest anyone "try it out" but hey, it's not as taboo as you think if you really are part of a group and you really do respect each other.Â
Aka I can jokingly call my friends bitches, but not strangers.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - LiadansWhisper - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 03:08 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: Someone just slut-shamed in this thread on the first page, calling a former guild member a "ho." And I see it from people I play with in-game all the time. It's casually accepted in our culture that we should describe women who have lots of sex as being "hos" or "sluts" who are somehow not doing the right thing (because we accept that sex is somehow shameful), but men who have lots of sex are just doing the man thing right.
Pretty sure the proper term for them is "man-ho" or "manslut." I've heard those bandied around a lot, to. But that's neither here nor there, I suppose.
Quote:I can also understand why the word "prostitute" is considered harmful to sex workers. It has harmful connotations. When people say the word or hear the word applied to a person, especially a woman, they're not thinking about good things. They're thinking about a "skanky whore" who is dishonest and a bad person who sells her body for money. The word prostitute has been loaded with negative connotations by our media, our law enforcement and our politicians.
When I hear the word, "prostitute," I think of a woman selling her body for money. I don't think I've ever had the words "skanky whore" fly through my mind when reading the word or reading a story involving prostitutes, probably because both of those words contain emotion attached to them that would require emotional investment on my part to feel. What I usually think when I hear about prostitutes getting arrested is, "I wonder how she got there? I wonder why no one helped her? I wonder if she's okay?" This is primarily because I've never encountered a prostitute that wanted to be a prostitute.
Quote:The word prostitute is also often automatically assumed to apply to trans women, especially trans women of color. Even white trans women have to deal with this assumption, though. I can barely dress appropriately for hot weather without encountering at least one creeper per week who tries to get me to suck his cock behind a dumpster for money. I don't dare dress in an intentionally provocative manner unless I've got a bunch of friends with me.
I've never encountered this. I am not trans, but quite a few of my friends are. I'm going to have to ask them, but this has literally never come up in conversation or situation with any of them, and several I've been friends with for over a decade or near to a decade.
Quote:You may not accept the word as being a slur, and technically it isn't so in that you're correct, but it's absolutely loaded with negativity in all kinds of ways. If you don't think so, ask any random woman if they're a prostitute. Chances are they won' reply with a simple, "No, my occupation is..." response.
I would posit that what's loaded with negativity is the actual job, and sex in general. Changing the word "prostitute" to something else won't dispel that negativity. Or, rather, it will - until people figure out what the new word actually means.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - synaesthetic - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 03:19 AM)Oli! Wrote: Subjective, as are most language-related things.
There's a difference between slut-shaming or whatever and being a well-meaning shit to people you know.
To some people, the use of the N-Word to refer to friends is offensive and horrible, while to other people, it's used in the context of bonding and taking back the word.
So without knowing the context and intent of the utterance, we can't definitively state a word or its usage as being solely in one camp or the other, without the risk of mass thought-control.
the context was in the post
and yes, it was a shaming statement.
and even if it's not a shaming statement, people who use the word "ho" and "slut" in a "joking" manner would probably not like being around me. because I would call that shit out just as I'd call out rape jokes or transphobic jokes or fat jokes.
it should be pretty easy not to be a jerk, but for some people it seems nigh-impossible.
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Val - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 03:24 AM)synaesthetic Wrote:(11-06-2015, 03:19 AM)Oli! Wrote: Subjective, as are most language-related things.
There's a difference between slut-shaming or whatever and being a well-meaning shit to people you know.
To some people, the use of the N-Word to refer to friends is offensive and horrible, while to other people, it's used in the context of bonding and taking back the word.
So without knowing the context and intent of the utterance, we can't definitively state a word or its usage as being solely in one camp or the other, without the risk of mass thought-control.
the context was in the post
and yes, it was a shaming statement.
and even if it's not a shaming statement, people who use the word "ho" and "slut" in a "joking" manner would probably not like being around me. because I would call that shit out just as I'd call out rape jokes or transphobic jokes or fat jokes.
it should be pretty easy not to be a jerk, but for some people it seems nigh-impossible.
This is where I say in my post you should say "I'm sorry, I didn't mean to offend you" and move on because the person is clearly looking for a reason to get offended by it :v
RE: Sex-work and Harmful Language - Oli! - 11-06-2015
(11-06-2015, 03:24 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: the context was in the post
and yes, it was a shaming statement.
and even if it's not a shaming statement, people who use the word "ho" and "slut" in a "joking" manner would probably not like being around me. because I would call that shit out just as I'd call out rape jokes or transphobic jokes or fat jokes.
it should be pretty easy not to be a jerk, but for some people it seems nigh-impossible.
You're confusing subjectivity of usage with being a jerk.
The context is in the post, yes. To you, it is a shaming statement. To the poster, it obviously wasn't.
Does this make them a bigot? If their intention was not to hurt, then absolutely not, it's just a stated difference in how people prefer that particular piece of that language to be used.
If a white person from Inner NYC called me "my n'ga," there would be no problem. To someone else, there would be.
This is subjectivity of usage.