Hydaelyn Role-Players
Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - Printable Version

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RE: Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - Gideon Aryeh - 07-27-2013

(07-27-2013, 04:46 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Personally, I think it's the presence of griefers that drives the "people I don't know getting involved is a potential threat" logic, which then leads to accusations of cliquish behavior from new players, which then causes cliquish behavior. This is easily defused by assuming good faith until someone demonstrates otherwise.

To the point about responding to rude behavior, obviously, there's a difference between IC and OOC reactions. If you come up to my character and she's having a shouting match with someone in public, then you try to comfort her, she's probably not going to respond pleasantly IC. OOC, I welcome the addition to the RP, but IC? The reaction will probably be icy. Likewise, jumping into a conversation she's having with people at a table in a tavern may, depending on what's said and how it's approached, get a cool response. However, all of this is IC -- and if my character chews you out IC, you can be sure there'll be an OOC tell coming to apologize for her being such an ass and let you know it's all IC.

The bad RPer is the one who asserts RP in an obviously public location is private, dismisses or gets annoyed OOC with those who attempt to engage there, and attempts to control OOCly who can and cannot RP with them in an obviously public location. That's inconsiderate and poor RP by any standard. Again, in this instance, I'm referring to clearly public locales -- the Adventurers' Guild, the main streets of a city, the Bismark, etc. I'm not referring to locations off the beaten track, player or FC housing, or very secluded locales where there's a possible intent to be private. It is not rude OOC to engage with people RPing in an obviously public location, and you do not have to ask them if it's okay to start RPing with them. They accept the IC consequence of the existence and social interactions of other characters the second they take the IC action of speaking in a public location. (Your character's actions may be rude IC, but ICA=ICC; be prepared to accept a negative response IC.)

That said, my message is simple: It's simply wrong to think it's not okay OOC for people to get involved with your RP in a public place. If you want your RP to be private, don't do it in public.

As a postscript, I'm sure I come off as an angry lunatic here, but the sort of "my scene in the Adventurers' Guild where I cough up blood and my friends come in and help me, but you can't RP a reaction or helping because it's a private scene" behavior, as well as the "oh, I'm going to ignore you because I don't know you're an RPer and, oh, you didn't ask first before talking to me, so even though I'm spouting rhetoric that'd provoke a response from you, I'm going to complain OOC that your responding was rude and invading my scene" behavior, is a massive pet peeve of mine. It splits the community, alienates new players, creates cliques, destroys any semblance of being welcoming, and promotes this strange belief that ICA doesn't equal ICC unless you want it to and it furthers your OOC goals. I'm sorry, but I can't accept that.

We as a community should not accept that.
 CHUURCH!
 
Honestly I believe if you expect bad things to happen they will.  You can't want people to feel welcome on your server and then tell them "Oh and by the way you should send me a tell asking if its alright if you join my clique..er group's private rp in a public location". Sorry but that isn't very welcoming at all imo and seems a bit too rulesy. Proper manners is one thing is one thing but doing things that don't even happen in real life is another. Most of the time groups involved in something private make sure its apparent that they are. Not the other way around.
 
Such a thing just honestly gives me a headache because its counterproductive to getting new people involved. Most people including roleplayers don't use forums, you are going to meet most of them in game. Most intereactions sorry folk are going to be random instances where people join into public conversations. That's rp, that's real life, that's what people know.
 
Now I hear what you're saying Ellie but again I personally believe its on the part of those engaging in private rp in a public space who are responsible for sending that tell to anyone trying to get into their session sending out an indicator that they are engaging in private rp. Yes the private chat also allows only eight people but if its a group bigger than eight at that point rping in private in a public space seems well... cliquish. There is no way to not be noticed with that many people around. Either hand out linkpearls at that point or move to a secluded area or instance.
 
I'll have to agree again with FW with this. Those who are going to Gilga lets try to not be like that, we are going to have so many people who are learning how to roleplay  in the first place that having such rules that are not normal is just confusing and frustrating and would easily get someone to not want to rp anymore.
 
I'd like us to avoid anything that can lead to a feeling of having cliques in any manner. Its not something that I want even to be hinted at on the server, roleplayers already have that stigma about them. Lets make it a new day on Gilga eh?
 
And let certainly not scare ourselves about griefers ruining anything. Positivity is the order of the day. I can show anyone how to deal with griefers realtime so just ask, trust me we will certainly have less than we think in the long run. Promise.
 
Lets build the server to not have that sort of feel. Its counterproductive and just scares people into not wanting to do anything or ruling guilty before proven innocent. Even thinking about such a possibility just makes people suspicious about each other, and that comes off a bit hypocritical when you say you want new folk around. Just my opinion mind you.
 
People have different concerns as well as approaches to handling things and that's understandable but this almost sky is falling approach on a sunny day is not my cup of tea personally. Too busy trying to make a server fantastic to do things like that you know? And have been doing this far too long.

*puts on sunglasses and smiles*

Besides, the day is just too beautiful to waste you know? I'll be at Costa del Sol at the beach. All are welcome to come along! And BYOB dammit cause I don't share my cognac and orange juice. *winks*

RE: Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - Eva - 07-27-2013

My own opinions aside, I'm of a mindset that a little communication solves a lot of potential problems.  But if something goes beyond two lines of dialogue without a proper inquiry or explanation given, there's probably some deeper problem.

In short, people all are going to have different preferences.  Some might be using an area like an "instance" where they're regarding themselves as being in a bubble, or somewhere they don't physically appear to be.  I've known this to happen though I don't know that there's ever been any issues with it.  I certainly don't think those who do this are specifically looking to exclude anyone - as has been suggested.  There's just some places a character might not be able to go in game for whatever reason.

I agree also that there shouldn't be an expectation that someone ask before participating in ongoing RP with another group.  I think there's nothing wrong at all with jumping right in.  Some might feel awkward by it.  But as far as I'm concerned it's on them to explain the situation or reasons why at that point.  And of course there's also nothing wrong with asking politely if you can join before jumping right in.  As has been said before this establishes that you're not a griefer and might put everyone at ease right off the bat.

People are going to have different ways of doing things.  I remember a conversation on these boards a long time ago about whether it's acceptable or not to walk up to a stranger in RL and just start a dialogue.  In some parts of the U.S. - nevermind the world - this is considered somewhat more taboo than others, where in other places it's more openly accepted.  People are always going to have different opinions about things based on these preferences, cultural backgrounds, etc.

If everyone is respectful and open to communicating than there shouldn't really be any problems, regardless of what the situation is.

RE: Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - Ashren Dotharl - 07-27-2013

There's a saying that I think would apply here: It's better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission. I think this applies almost doubly for Roleplayers in this type of environment. If you happen upon two people in a tavern having a conversation it's far easier to try to engage them and be ignored than it is to ask to join and potentially be ignored. The fear or rejection tends to be stronger than the desire to engage in most cases. Maybe I happen upon your RP and see a perfect opening to get involved myself, so I send you a /tell to ask permission to join and you guys post two or three more times before responding, even if it was favorably chances are that window of opportunity I had has come and gone when you continued your scene.

Regardless however, many people are hesitant for one reason or another about engaging in RP with people they don't know, and it adds an extra level of hesitation when you're expected to ask for permission prior to joining. If you're going to RP in public you should just do so operating under the impression you're sending an invitation to anyone around to join you, otherwise you need to be doing your private RP in private. Not to mention how much requiring permission breaks immersion. Have you ever sat in a cafe or something and overheard a conversation, and then walked up to one of the people involved and whispered in their ear "Hey do you mind if I join your conversation?" I'm going to guess the answer to that is no. That would be incredibly creepy.

RE: Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - Naunet - 07-27-2013

(07-27-2013, 05:31 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: Have you ever sat in a cafe or something and overheard a conversation, and then walked up to one of the people involved and whispered in their ear "Hey do you mind if I join your conversation?" I'm going to guess the answer to that is no. That would be incredibly creepy.

I'm all for folk walking up and entering a scene at will, but characterizing asking for permission as creepy is a bit disingenuous. This isn't real life; this is roleplay. It's not unusual for someone to ask if it's alright if they enter a scene - just as it shouldn't be unusual for someone to simply enter a scene without asking.

More often than not, if I see folks roleplaying and want to take part in it, I'll just find a way to get my character involved and let whatever happens happen. Sometimes, though, if the scene seems particularly intense (especially if said intense RP is happening in a place that isn't a crowded, public area like a city or a tavern or something), I may send an OOC whisper asking if it's alright if I involve myself.

RE: Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - Ashren Dotharl - 07-27-2013

(07-27-2013, 05:44 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(07-27-2013, 05:31 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: Have you ever sat in a cafe or something and overheard a conversation, and then walked up to one of the people involved and whispered in their ear "Hey do you mind if I join your conversation?" I'm going to guess the answer to that is no. That would be incredibly creepy.

I'm all for folk walking up and entering a scene at will, but characterizing asking for permission as creepy is a bit disingenuous. This isn't real life; this is roleplay.

I think I misspoke, what I was referring to was immersion and I don't think I clarified that. Let me spin a tale here for a moment as an example.

Let us say that my character has an encyclopedic knowledge of the southern deserts of Thanalan, and he's just sitting around bored in the Adventurer's Guild waiting for something to do. In comes these two other adventurers talking about an expedition into the southern deserts, but perhaps they're bickering about some specific landmark or some such. My character overhears this, and his natural reaction would be to chime in and offer his expertise. Now either the two accept his offer of help, they decline it, or they outright ignore him but in either case I can roll with that and fluidly continue to RP. If they accept, and adventure starts and now the group has a guide! If they decline I politely nod my head and go about my business. If they ignore me then I can either pretend they didn't hear me, or perhaps react as if they just gave me the cold shoulder and make some remark before going on about my day.

This is fluid, immersed roleplay that plays out without any OOC direction or narration. It just happens as the events unfold naturally.

Now under the same example, lets say before engaging the two I whisper one or both of them to ask if it'd be alright for me to join them, and we'll say I get any of the three above responses in either case. Even if they respond positively and I get to join them, the problem I have is that I still had to pause, step outside of my character and then address them as the player before joining in.

This is what I meant by whispering in someones ear for permission to join their conversation. Imagine if you had to watch movies unedited where before every scene the director stopped the movie to tell the actors what to do next. There's no way you could get involved in the movie if he keeps breaking the immersion, and for me that's what needing permission to RP is like.

Don't get me wrong, if I see a small group of people somewhere secluded I'm not about to come running up to them with my pants on my head shouting "HAI GUIZ WACHA DOOING?!" I understand being courteous and what not, but my character is the type of guy that likes to sit around in popular places and listen in on conversations, so if he happened by a small group of people in an isolated area, he's more likely to sit a spell and have a listen in case something interesting is going down and if I see people posting in /say I feel it's only polite that I do the same to at least make it known that I'm there listening IC. If no one is saying anything in /say, I'll assume it's private and be on my way.

RE: Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - Naunet - 07-27-2013

(07-27-2013, 06:04 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: This is what I meant by whispering in someones ear for permission to join their conversation. Imagine if you had to watch movies unedited where before every scene the director stopped the movie to tell the actors what to do next. There's no way you could get involved in the movie if he keeps breaking the immersion, and for me that's what needing permission to RP is like.

Meh, it really doesn't bother me. My own immersion is a lot more... I guess unshakable would be an appropriate word. It's not something I have to really keep in mind at all times. Immersion is a variable thing from one person to the next, which is why I said both asking for permission and not asking for permission are a-okay.

RE: Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - FreelanceWizard - 07-27-2013

If someone wants to ask for permission (or feels they need to, based on their judgment; Ashren Snow's example of people sitting by themselves in an isolated area is one time when you might want to, IMO. I know I probably would in that instance), then sure, that's fine. There just should never be an expectation that people do that when they see a group RPing in a clearly public location.

RE: Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - K'nahli - 07-27-2013

There's a lot of talk of griefers in here. Are they really that common?

RE: Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - Naunet - 07-27-2013

(07-27-2013, 07:24 PM)Wolf Wrote: There's a lot of talk of griefers in here. Are they really that common?

Depends on the game.

RE: Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - Gideon Aryeh - 07-27-2013

(07-27-2013, 07:24 PM)Wolf Wrote: There's a lot of talk of griefers in here. Are they really that common?
 No they aren't at all. They really aren't a concern imo.

RE: Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - Naunet - 07-27-2013

(07-27-2013, 07:29 PM)Rock Sandbourne Wrote:  No they aren't at all. They really aren't a concern imo.

This is patently untrue. In TERA, it's incredibly difficult to RP anywhere remotely public without finding yourself spammed with OOC /say (luckily solvable with a /block), or covered in spell effects from people just spamming spells on top of you, or having someone sit on top of your RP with their mount spamming the spacebar. Griefing was also a reality in my experiences with RP in WoW, Rift, and Aion.

To say that griefers are not a concern misrepresents the RP situation in a wide variety of games.

RE: Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - FreelanceWizard - 07-27-2013

That said (and while we really have no idea with XIV not live yet Smile ), my personal read of the community thus far is that it's more mature and probably less likely to have griefers. I could conjecture on Rift, Aion, and TERA's griefer problems, but to speak directly about WoW's, it's entirely a function of it being the biggest MMO. Even then, on the RP servers, it was (comparatively) uncommon, which is not to say that griefers didn't exist or that WoW's RP community didn't have other (massive) problems.

Perhaps another thread on strategies for handling griefers wouldn't be out of line?

RE: Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - Naunet - 07-27-2013

(07-27-2013, 08:26 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Perhaps another thread on strategies for handling griefers wouldn't be out of line?

Eh, there's only one way to deal with them, and that's to ignore them.

But that's beside the point, which was this: If you feel the need to ask permission to enter an RP scene, feel free to ask. If you don't feel the need to ask permission to enter an RP scene, then don't. It's really that simple!

RE: Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - Gideon Aryeh - 07-27-2013

(07-27-2013, 07:33 PM)Naunet Wrote:
(07-27-2013, 07:29 PM)Rock Sandbourne Wrote:  No they aren't at all. They really aren't a concern imo.

This is patently untrue. In TERA, it's incredibly difficult to RP anywhere remotely public without finding yourself spammed with OOC /say (luckily solvable with a /block), or covered in spell effects from people just spamming spells on top of you, or having someone sit on top of your RP with their mount spamming the spacebar. Griefing was also a reality in my experiences with RP in WoW, Rift, and Aion.

To say that griefers are not a concern misrepresents the RP situation in a wide variety of games.
 I think its a matter of personal experience, I really never had an issue with them because I would quickly ignore or block them then ignore them. And the spamming spells thing, I can count on one hand. Now as far as them being in TERA well honestly I've always tried to avoid most F2p mmos for rp. So I wouldn't say its a misrepresentation I would say that personally I ignored/blocked/blacklisted them so quickly that it became a non issue.
 
I also said they were not a concern "imo" in-my-opinion. I can't speak for others. I just don't concern myself with them like others do, nor do I let them get me angry. Oh there's griefers on this server? *shrugs and readies block list* Now who wants to rp?! Everyone:" Yaaaaaayyy!!!"


And the show goes on

RE: Why I love it when other RPers crash my scene - Ashren Dotharl - 07-28-2013

Ultimately it's best to just practice discretion, if people are rping out in the open in a well populated area then chances are they are doing so as an open invitation for anyone to join, while in some cases the subject matter might or the specific circumstances (see: location, number of people, etc) might make it apparent that what is going on is intended to be private. I definitely advocate open rp, a lively world, and a strong community above anything else!

As far as griefers go, during beta I haven't really encountered any in game so far but I do need to issue a warning to those who can't access the beta forums. Prior to me joining RPC, this was back in Phase 2, I remember searching the beta forums looking for threads to see what server the majority of the RP community was going to be on come launch and if there was already a strong community somewhere (coming from TERA I was a part of the Council of Seven community for a while). Upon searching I found a LOT of hate towards Roleplayers, a surprising amount of it to be honest. There were a lot of threads that go so bad they ended up locked after only a few pages because they had become so inflammatory. A lot of this had to do with people wanting us to stay off their server, and primarily it involved servers like Hyperion and Behemoth though I saw it on a few others. Ironically a lot of these people viewed US as griefers.

Sorry for going off topic with that, but since the question was asked about griefers I felt that cautionary tale needed to be told. Though then again a group of 10 or 12 people on the beta forums does not make up the majority of the FF Community.