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+--- Thread: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. (/showthread.php?tid=8889)
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - crowmeleon - 11-06-2014
(11-06-2014, 10:49 PM)allgivenover Wrote: It's my understanding that the California law has only been used to pile on a case against someone who was already under investigation for child pornography, it has never been used against anyone who only wrote something, and if it was it would be challenged and dismissed in an appeal court.
The fears about this are completely unfounded.
Well then I'm afraid I must respectfully disagree.
The lacking precedent on these issues, and the contradictions within the codes themselves as well as the wanton application of such (As in the case you mentioned which was cited in my above post) makes this a 'wild west' frontier of law. That case itself is a clear example of such. The codes that were drawn upon to decide the man's verdict were nebulous at best, leaving the decision to the discretion of the court. That case will now hold precedence over all cases that follow. These issues that will define case law have yet to arise, and no real predictions can be made to the effects those cases will have.Â
Combine that with the inherent risk of unknowingly rping with a minor, and the devastating effects written erotica involving minors IC would have on such a case, I do not feel it is 'unfounded' in the slightest. Yes, the risk is minute, for most of us, I am not arguing that. but it is there. Not to even mention the possible non-legal repercussions of being socially branded as someone participating in erotica involving minors.Â
EDIT: Which you yourself have acknowledged- In just playing devil's advocate you are being judged. However to call this an 'kneejerk' issue is hardly fair. Disagreeing with portrayal of minors in sexual situations in any context is a valid opinion. One I do not agree with on every level (As I can understand realistic portrayals of such with genuine literary value) but I can certainly understand when considering the broader consequences of such material.
But I will repeat that that was not the point of this thread in the slightest.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Jana - 11-06-2014
(11-06-2014, 09:47 PM)allgivenover Wrote:(11-06-2014, 09:36 PM)Mae Wrote: -- Random factoid I discovered on the internet: some "dating sim" games and "hentai comics" feature characters that are under 18; in their country of origin they're legal but in order for these items to be sold to other countries, localization teams change dialogues and bios to make the characters fit the regions they're selling to so consumers don't run afoul of child pornography laws.
No, they really don't in the United States at least. We have this thing called the first ammendment that criminalizing this would violate.
As for your random fact, it's because virtual images have since been criminalized, but not written words, no one is talking about images here.
As someone who's spoken with localizers before, I'm afraid I have to say that you're wrong on this one. Character ages do often get changed to over 18 before a work featuring, say, high school girls can be officially released in the US.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - allgivenover - 11-06-2014
(11-06-2014, 11:14 PM)Jana Wrote:(11-06-2014, 09:47 PM)allgivenover Wrote:(11-06-2014, 09:36 PM)Mae Wrote: -- Random factoid I discovered on the internet: some "dating sim" games and "hentai comics" feature characters that are under 18; in their country of origin they're legal but in order for these items to be sold to other countries, localization teams change dialogues and bios to make the characters fit the regions they're selling to so consumers don't run afoul of child pornography laws.
No, they really don't in the United States at least. We have this thing called the first ammendment that criminalizing this would violate.
As for your random fact, it's because virtual images have since been criminalized, but not written words, no one is talking about images here.
As someone who's spoken with localizers before, I'm afraid I have to say that you're wrong on this one. Character ages do often get changed to over 18 before a work featuring, say, high school girls can be officially released in the US.
Again, this is in the case of IMAGES, not written portrayals. If it applied to writing then several of the books on my shelf would land me in jail.Â
Seriously I cannot believe you all think that a written portrayal can be criminalized in this way. Whether two adults collude to make it happen or one writes it on their own. I'm really kind of floored. Go pick up the first ASoIaF book in a bookstore and flip to the part where it goes on in detail on several occasions about a 13 year old Daenarys enjoying sex with Khal Drogo and tell me that two consenting adult Rpers are going to get in trouble for writing about underage encounters. You can read it right in the store!
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Sophia_Grave - 11-06-2014
(11-06-2014, 11:23 PM)allgivenover Wrote:No, this is happening way too often to be some literary gambit used to set a specific mood, setting, or emotion in the reader. No one is saying this type of thing doesn't have artistic merit; we're saying that there is unwarranted advances in play that ought to stop. I don't think anyone who cold-pitches the idea of sex with another player's underage character has some grand scheme in mind. Behind close doors and in private, people can do whatever they want.(11-06-2014, 11:14 PM)Jana Wrote:(11-06-2014, 09:47 PM)allgivenover Wrote:(11-06-2014, 09:36 PM)Mae Wrote: -- Random factoid I discovered on the internet: some "dating sim" games and "hentai comics" feature characters that are under 18; in their country of origin they're legal but in order for these items to be sold to other countries, localization teams change dialogues and bios to make the characters fit the regions they're selling to so consumers don't run afoul of child pornography laws.
No, they really don't in the United States at least. We have this thing called the first ammendment that criminalizing this would violate.
As for your random fact, it's because virtual images have since been criminalized, but not written words, no one is talking about images here.
As someone who's spoken with localizers before, I'm afraid I have to say that you're wrong on this one. Character ages do often get changed to over 18 before a work featuring, say, high school girls can be officially released in the US.
Again, this is in the case of IMAGES, not written portrayals. If it applied to writing then several of the books on my shelf would land me in jail.Â
Seriously I cannot believe you all think that a written portrayal can be criminalized in this way. Whether two adults collude to do make it happen or one writes it on their own. I'm really kind of floored. Go pick up the first ASoIaF book in a bookstore and flip to the part where it goes on in detail on several occasions about a 13 year old Daenarys enjoying sex with Khal Drogo and tell me that two consenting adult Rpers are going to get in trouble for writing about underage encounters. You can read it right in the store!
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - crowmeleon - 11-06-2014
(11-06-2014, 11:23 PM)allgivenover Wrote:(11-06-2014, 11:14 PM)Jana Wrote:(11-06-2014, 09:47 PM)allgivenover Wrote:(11-06-2014, 09:36 PM)Mae Wrote: -- Random factoid I discovered on the internet: some "dating sim" games and "hentai comics" feature characters that are under 18; in their country of origin they're legal but in order for these items to be sold to other countries, localization teams change dialogues and bios to make the characters fit the regions they're selling to so consumers don't run afoul of child pornography laws.
No, they really don't in the United States at least. We have this thing called the first ammendment that criminalizing this would violate.
As for your random fact, it's because virtual images have since been criminalized, but not written words, no one is talking about images here.
As someone who's spoken with localizers before, I'm afraid I have to say that you're wrong on this one. Character ages do often get changed to over 18 before a work featuring, say, high school girls can be officially released in the US.
Again, this is in the case of IMAGES, not written portrayals. If it applied to writing then several of the books on my shelf would land me in jail.Â
Seriously I cannot believe you all think that a written portrayal can be criminalized in this way. Whether two adults collude to do make it happen or one writes it on their own. I'm really kind of floored. Go pick up the first ASoIaF book in a bookstore and flip to the part where it goes on in detail on several occasions about a 13 year old Daenarys enjoying sex with Khal Drogo and tell me that two consenting adult Rpers are going to get in trouble for writing about underage encounters. You can read it right in the store!
That falls under 'literary value' as previously discussed. You're going to have a hard time proving smut involving a minor on an mmo as something of 'literary value' considering the general public would consider it on the same level as sexting. The problem is that everyone who engages in this thinks that what they're writing is above that line- Whether or not it is actually true. Not to mention that the book is written by one person, not two parties. No, the chances of you being prosecuted for that alone are next to nil- But it's something that could affect you should other legal complications arise (Not even just say, unknowingly rping with a minor. It could affect your custody battle, or really any case your character is called into question) or just in everyday life (If it got out it could jeopardize your career, or your friendships, yadda yadda )
But again, that was not the purpose of this thread. We're discussing an unwanted social trend affecting rpers within our community.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - allgivenover - 11-07-2014
I'm not sure why I'm being quoted and responded too about how creepers in the online world be creepin' and how often it happens. I'm not addressing that. It happens. I'm only addressing the ridiculous notion that you're going to land in jail portraying underage sex in your writing, even with another consenting adult. It's not going to happen.
Edit: And that you should automatically age up your characters in the case that it might happen. This is ridiculous and unnecessary.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Tiergan - 11-07-2014
Alright, if it pleases folks, I have crossed out the entire section about 'You can potentially get in trouble for this if you're two adults writing sexual RP involving a minor' and simply replaced it with the quotes I felt best represented my feelings on the whole matter.
At the end of the day, I'm not out to sit and define whether or not books of literary value should be considered child porn just because they depict a minor in a sexual situation. I'm here to point out there are inherent problems in RPing sexually active minors, the least of which is normalizing and enabling something that is no bueno.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Faye - 11-07-2014
Regardless of whether it can be criminalized, the ages of minors are sometimes raised from their original values to 18+ in some works of fiction to avoid negative scrutiny. It's not always so much a matter of legality as it is publishers want a product that will sell and not get them a ton of backlash.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Marisa - 11-07-2014
I can definitely see how it would make some people uncomfortable. As someone who roleplays a minor myself, though, I like to handle it all in-character. Maybe it's because I have the benefit of being somebody who's well-armed and living in a safe neighborhood, but I'm never really worried about the person on the other end, even if their character is unsettling.Â
Ryoko has had some strong advances come her way. It's usually not their fault, they don't know she's 14 OOC. And even IC, it's probably hard to tell the age of a young Miqo'te girl. Whether they know or not, Ryoko fends off their advances all the same. She's got a reputation to maintain as a priestess, after all. Even if they're the 'disturbingly persistent' type, I take it all IC. I have to imagine that pedophiles and perverts exist in Eorzea and would prey on girls like her, and while I would never expect another person to be as calm about it as I am, for me it's just part of the experience.Â
I also learned back in WoW that sending the replyÂ
"<<< is a dude"Â
will almost immediately end all attempts at unsolicited ERP. Though it's far more fun to do the whole "I take off my robe and wizard hat!" routine.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Saefinn - 11-07-2014
Quote:Finally, and this is a sort of a broader topic but it's related and endlessly amusing for me, the vast majority of RPers are usually fine with participating in the following types of RP (especially when their character is the target, who doesn't love playing a victim now and then?):
Torture.
Kidnapping.
Murder.
Mutilation.
Theft.
Rape (so so very common in back-story).
Violent conflict resolution.
But violate some arbitrary number and idea about age of consent? Suddenly you are crossing the line. I'm not saying go out and have a fun time ERPing with underage characters, I'm just saying it's silly to draw the line here after everything else the average RPer is ok with. Are there people out there that are only doing this sort of thing to get their rocks off? Of course, and you'd rightfully avoid them. But are there people who are using this to tell a compelling story? Probably not very often, but it's possible. I don't consider anything off limits in my writing, and as my roleplaying is largely an extension of that I don't consider anything in roleplay off limits.
I would say it's a difficult one. I would say if it's for characterisation and plot devices and something a character may or may not do, then I see it as okay. I mean these are things authors will write about, because there are topics that are mature, sensitive and shocking, but also things that happen. Of course, I would prolly suggest in a world like Eorzea, the age of consent is lower, given the kind of time period the game is set in. Also bear in mind the age of consent in different parts of the world is different, can be 18, 16 or even sometimes 14 and can even get lower than that, but I can understand the lower the number the more likely somebody's going to have moral issues.
If you're getting off on ERP with an IC minor and are doing so because they're playing an IC minor, that's where I would find it a problem. Likewise if I was getting off on a torture scene. I think character relationships should happen because they naturally happen, but then I RP for the sake of developing characters and developing a story line and not to actively seek IC relationships or ERP, though my character did get into a relationship, but they connected really well. Only time I've done it and they were right for each other.
Given my character has tortured, I've done it because whilst he is very kind and can be very sweet, he is very protective and grew up in some of the much more darker sides of piracy, so it would be something he would do and was tasked to do in the past, so if you really get on his bad side, then he will be merciless, but luckily that will only happen if you're a horribly corrupt bastard who hurts and exploits others or if you threaten the safety of his crew or loved ones. Do I get off on it when I have RP'd torture? No. To me, it's a dramatic device in a story involving my characters.
I think that's where the line needs to be drawn. Also, on more mature themes I feel a warning label is needed. For instance, I stuck a warning label on RP where we tortured a very corrupt Maelstrom officer for information, so those who were uncomfortable, didn't need to get involved.
I would also say bear in mind that what your character is like morally will affect people's opinions, so if you're shagging a 12 year old Lala, you will probably get a lot of flack, if you're intending to play the character as a scumbag that does that, but not going out to ERP it and are doing so for the sake of making a character people hate and something that makes people uncomfortable, then kudos for having the balls to do so. It is still a topic that people are still offended by, so like any sensitive topic with RP, I would again, stick a warning label on it.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Blue - 11-07-2014
All so very true, both for IC minors as OOC minors. A former member of our RP LS, a minor, has engaged in ERP activity (as discovered by a very awkward MT), despite him having read our LS rules which include to keep away from ERP for minor players.
We did not kick him, but we had a serious talk with this person (him, me and our co-leader), in which we gave lengthy explanations of the kind of trouble he could put himself, his partner, as well as our linkshell by doing that (because, yes, if parents catch their minor kid doing this kind of stuff they have every right to look up his friends and guildies and take legal actions on its leaders, at least in my country).
We made it clear to him that if he still insisted on taking part to this activities at his minor age, we did not want to be put at risk. He stayed, so I think he stopped ERPing at least until he is 18.
Now, I do not know the person he ERPd with (we got his/her name to have a talk, but they never replied to our private messages, despite the civil and polite tone we used), but I got the impression this gal or guy-rping-gal was the one who nudged and pressed our minor LS member to get things going. I do not mean to judge the person himself, but I'd like to ask ERPing players to be careful and considerate of their partners' real age. Do not just assume you are ERPing with an adult just because they are consentient, because even kids are likely to agree to RP just because, "hey, we're a screen apart. It can't be bad." It can be bad if their parents find out and decide to make a big deal out of it, and you are not in the position to decide for them when their kid is ready to partake to this kind of stuff.
Be careful of who you are ERPing with, and don't take it too lightly! It's the key to a civil and happy gaming experience.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - SM Nick - 11-07-2014
As of this post, I will only be a minor for around 2-3 months, so I have a question: Does a kiss count as sexually-charged? I personally think it should be ok if a character kisses another, be it on a cheek or on the lips. To me that does not count as a sexual offenses or porn.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Gaspard - 11-07-2014
(11-07-2014, 06:14 AM)Saefinn Wrote:Quote:Finally, and this is a sort of a broader topic but it's related and endlessly amusing for me, the vast majority of RPers are usually fine with participating in the following types of RP (especially when their character is the target, who doesn't love playing a victim now and then?):
Torture.
Kidnapping.
Murder.
Mutilation.
Theft.
Rape (so so very common in back-story).
Violent conflict resolution.
But violate some arbitrary number and idea about age of consent? Suddenly you are crossing the line. I'm not saying go out and have a fun time ERPing with underage characters, I'm just saying it's silly to draw the line here after everything else the average RPer is ok with. Are there people out there that are only doing this sort of thing to get their rocks off? Of course, and you'd rightfully avoid them. But are there people who are using this to tell a compelling story? Probably not very often, but it's possible. I don't consider anything off limits in my writing, and as my roleplaying is largely an extension of that I don't consider anything in roleplay off limits.
Within storytelling, or entertainment in general, people tend to be drawn towards the darker things in life. Even if you wind back to the times of shakespeare, everything revolved around betrayal, lust, and the likes. For more common-day examples, just take a look at what type of shows are trending. Hannibal, Dexter. Movies that fall under the 'revenge flick' category such as 'Law abiding Citizen' or the recent 'John Wick', All revolve around Characters doing what we normally do not, and we find ourselves compelled by these stories.
However,
What all of these stay clear from, is sexual tension / attraction to minors, Unless it's depicted as what it is. A gruesome, disgusting and stomach churning event. And that is in 'writing' alone, without the 'dynamic' component of Roleplaying.
Roleplaying as such will always be a dynamic thing. It involves interaction, not just mere writing/storytelling. You actively work with others by doing a sort of give/take feedback circle, to weave the story. Now, the moment you RP material with a minor that is sexually loaded, all you need to do is strip away the tag of 'RP' and what you're essentially doing is texting eachother sexually arousing material. Any Lawyer can have a field day with that, rightfully so.
Now, if both are of age and doing a plot involving minors, that 'is' up to them, but you still may find yourself in that 'child-pornography' nieche, because you're pushing boundaries hard there. Can you be prosecuted for it? Probably not. However, in my personal opinion it 'is' disgusting, and if you try to brush it off with 'It's RP so everything goes' you clearly do not understand the social dynamic behind roleplay and the inevitable link between player and character.
I may be alone in this, but when it comes to roleplaying I consider children off-limits. Simply because roleplaying is 'not' just this harmless form of storytelling, as it is far too dynamic for that. I go by the general rule of thumb 'you can do anything, aslong adults are involved/adult characters are involved.', Child characters however are entirely out of question.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Mae - 11-07-2014
(11-07-2014, 10:20 AM)Niklas Gran Wrote: As of this post, I will only be a minor for around 2-3 months, so I have a question: Does a kiss count as sexually-charged? I personally think it should be ok if a character kisses another, be it on a cheek or on the lips. To me that does not count as a sexual offenses or porn.Kissing is usually fine -- in a legal sense, as long as it's above the jawline and there's no tongue, it's not typically considered an act of sex. It can be looked down upon by society/cultural norms, but that's about it.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Zhavi - 11-07-2014
This debate kinda makes me think of Karen Marie Moning's (she writes varying levels of smut, with her more recent books focusing more on story over smut, but still.... yeah, people read it for the romance/smut) response to the outcry over her latest series, featuring a 14 year old protagonist. When asked, she said that yes, the character will end up having steamy sex with one of the immortal hunks in the story before she turns 18. The outcry was immediate and vicious, to which she replied (and I am very loosely paraphrasing): teenagers have sex. Get over it.
Yeah, I did see the discussion about literary value in novels over smut written between two individuals earlier, but there is no need for things to necessarily be explicit or venture into the whole legality thing. I, for one, think it is much more tasteful for it to be addressed as growth for the character, rather than always having to be some grotesque caricature of passion for the sole purpose of avoiding, as saefinn put it, an idea about the age of consent.
I do remember discussing, with a rp partner on another site, the prospect of tossing our two male teenage characters (though, mine is 19 and hers .... 17? I think?) into a situation with a prostitute, where the scene planned would be so awkward and horrific in its embarrassing qualities that others would cringe out of reading it (with the prostitute in question being a horror in her own right, aesthetically speaking :3 ).
Which is, to me, the main fun I have writing teenagers: awkward, awful, embarrassing. Complete with, you know, never being able to maintain eye contact with the other person ever again. And in that there isn't any need to be explicit. But it does build character, and it is possible to be tasteful and focus on the characters/plot over . . . using the scene as a way to get your rocks off. Which I am not advocating.
Then again, like I've said before, I really like writing about imperfections. I was never one for perfect romances, anyways, and youth gives you that chance to evoke a sense of gawkiness and shame that is, somehow, permissible and forgivable while being occasionally endearing (assuming you manage to avoid the whole annoying twat thing, of which I have run afoul more than once).
...but who am I kidding. I just want people to remember something particularly embarrassing about their teenage years and cringe away from the writing in acute self-loathing. <3