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New jobs for current classes - Printable Version

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RE: New jobs for current classes - Sounsyy - 02-12-2014

It's an interesting concept, I still can't see it fitting with GLA at all though. 

You're still having to implement a system that negates or changes the effects of a majority of your base class abilities. Which IMO, if you're going to have to change every single base class ability, that job probably doesn't belong on that class. If you look at SCH vs SMN, even though they fill different roles, their abilities do not magically change function. Miasma is still a DoT on both. 

Your Great Sword concept is kinda OP. 2x Enmity generation just because you don't have a shield? WAR don't have a shield either and they don't get a token 2x enmity. Based on your description GLA and PLD can equip a GS as well? So that's 4x natural enmity generation for a PLD.
 
Equipping a different weapon type (which conflicts with Armoury System and established GLA lore) also makes three of your class abilities inert. So your proposed DRK is already behind the 8-ball on abilities.

On top of shield lob, shield bash, and bulwark being rendered inert, your concept still doesn't explain what practical uses your DRK would have for Sentinel, Rampart, Awareness, Convalescence, Flash, or Provoke. So a total of 9 abilities from your base class that really have no purpose on a battle-to-battle basis. The only useful buff that your base class contributes to your DRK is Fight or Flight.
 
I like your concepts for Soul Eater and Abyssal Blade, but I feel like Blood Weapon, Fearful Impact, and Absorb are a little lackluster. 
-The only problem I have with Blood Weapon is that it almost requires being stacked with Bloodbath (a cross-classed ability) to be effective. Anyone who's played WAR knows how negligible 25% hp return really is.
-Your concept for DRK has absolutely no use for any other stat than STR, so you would only ever want to use Absorb following Savage Blade. (An ability you'd probably shy away from because Rage of Halone with 10x enmity modifier, thanks to 2x enmity from GS, on a dd class might be dangerous; and you've buffed the Riot Blade > Abyssal Blade tree.) Unless Absorb buffed the whole party and not just the user, then maybe I could see it being useful. 
-Fearful Impact would suffer for the same reason that most Debuff classes fail in MMOs. Most bosses are immune to all/most statuses, especially Stun/Pacification type abilities. Just like why you don't see PLD's using Shield Swipe during most boss fights. If it works, great, but 90% of bosses are immune to its effects. And a 300s cooldown on what's essentially a glorified Stun move seems a bit silly.



Again, this is the reason why I'm against alternate jobs on pre-existing classes. However, since that is what this thread is all about, I wanted to take Wamoto's concept of DRK and apply it to MRD, which I think is a much more logical fit for DRK.

MRD is already a class that balances tanking and dps(which is what most people seem to want DRK to do). WAR is an HP tank, DRK is an HP dps. You already have spikes (Vengeance), a natural buff to increase attack power (Berserk), and an HP drain (Bloodbath). You also have 3 weaponskill trees to go down, two of which do not generate enmity, and both apply a Debuff to the target. Which fits in with the DRK concept of a debuffer. Also as a MRD>DRK instead of WAR, you won't have to deal with the -35% dps from Defiance. So you'll be doing a good bit of extra dmg. (When buffed my non-STR WAR can crit 990 Butcher Blocks and 850~900 Storm's Eyes. I've never been able to get above 500 crit Rage of Halone on my PLD. Another reason I think GLA is a poor fit for a dd class.)

So now let's plug in DRK:

Soul Eater DRK Lv30 - User takes 20% of damage dealt by all attacks against enemies, while increasing overall damage dealt. Soul Eater automatically switches off if user's HP drops below 15%. Cannot be used in conjunction with Blood Weapon.

(Usually when you have two toggle abilities, one of them is up at any given time. Considering this will be the first one up, it didn't make sense to have a natural DoT even when outside of combat. Now that this works like a reverse Bloodbath, it gives you an actual reason to swap to Blood Weapon. You create phases and dynamics within the job. Just like BLMs have Fire and Ice aspects for MP. DRK will have burn and restore phases for HP. For those crying about 20% it's not that much dmg. 20% of 900 is only 180 and you probably won't be hitting 900 dmg every swing. Regen will help increase your burn phase duration. Also you could pop Bloodbath here to negate the effects of Soul Eater and increase your burn phase for Bloodbath's duration. But the more damage you put out, the more HP you lose. This is why MRD is the perfect choice for base class because you have a substantial HP pool in which to supply Soul Eater and when you get low, you can pop Thrill of Battle to keep it going!)

Absorb DRK Lv35 - Absorb a single primary stat from enemy and apply it to all party members within range. Stat absorbed varies based on last combo completed. Duration: 30s | MP Cost @Lv50: 150. | Cast Time: 2.5s | Storm's Eye = +INT, Storm's Path = +DEX, Butcher's Block = +STR. 

(I made this MP based instead of a cooldown because MRD at 50 only have like 600 MP and no way to restore it, so this creates scarcity and ensures you won't have this up all the time. It will also act primarily as a buff to party member's damage as acquiring the STR buff will require you to go down enmity tree at least once if you want to max out your own damage for a burn phase. This makes it so you don't make yourself OP without at least a little risk. Also limited the stats absorbed to just STR, DEX, and INT because DRK is a dd and it should only buff party's damage output. So VIT, MND, or PIE don't make much sense.)

Blood Weapon DRK Lv40 - Converts 35% of damage dealt into HP. Cannot be used in conjunction with Soul Eater.

(I made this a toggle so it isn't just a second Bloodbath. This can be stacked with your Bloodbath ability for 60% conversion. This will be the "Umbral Ice" to your Soul Eater, quickly restoring HP to full after a burn phase. You also lose the damage dealt increase from Soul Eater, so you won't insta restore full HP with a few swings. This is your resting phase ability.)

Abyssal Swing DRK Lv45 - Sacrifices 20% HP to deliver an attack with a potency of 300 to all nearby enemies. Potency reduced the farther the target is from the user. Range: 10y

(MRD already has a cone, so Abyssal Swing will be DRK's answer to Steel Cyclone. It also won't have a TP cost because it has an HP cost, which will prevent it from being spammed. However, like Steel Cyclone, I'd leave it on the GCD so it could be spammed assuming you have a dedicated healer keeping you up. This would allow your DRK to have both single-target and AoE capabilities just like WAR does.)

Fearful Impact DRK Lv50 - User charges forward, delivering an attack with a potency of 200 to all enemies in path ahead. Inflicts Stun to all enemies in direct path of attack and Heavy to all enemies just outside charge path. Charge Range: 10y. Cooldown: 180s.

(Here's my take on Fearful Impact. We don't have a charge skill in XIV yet and I think DRK should be the class to have it. Instead of adding another type of stun effect to the game, I'm opting for a focused aoe stun. This ability's effectiveness is still at the mercy of immunities and CC, but I wouldn't see this being used on many bosses. More of an extra crowd control debuff feature for adds to play in with DRK as a debuffer class and MRD being an aoe tank/dd. As it will be mostly useless against major boss fights, I saw no reason to give it more than a 3 minute cooldown time.)



Now to wrap it all up, just add LNC and ARC as subjobs and you're set. THM subjob is kinda dumb because the only worthwhile ability you could pull would be Swiftcast for Absorb. With LNC/ARC you can cross-class Invigorate to use during your resting phase and Blood for Blood, Raging Strikes, and Quelling Strikes to use during burn phase. So in conclusion, MRD > DRK brings the following things to the table:
- Single target dps and debuffing. (Maim, Storm's Eye/Path, Soul Eater, Berserk, Fracture)
- Capable of some AoE dps and debuffing. (Overpower, Abyssal Swing, Fearful Impact)
- Has a burn phase and resting phase based on HP which is regulated with Soul Eater, Blood Weapon, Bloodbath, and Thrill of Battle.
- Party utility (Absorb)
- Can step up to be a poor tanking substitute with Vengeance, Foresight, Blood Weapon, Overpower, and enmity combo tree. But since your attacks and your survivability would both depend entirely on your HP pool, you wouldn't last long.

And most importantly of all: MRD > DRK has no useless abilities and I didn't change the function of a single pre-existing ability.

RE: New jobs for current classes - synaesthetic - 02-13-2014

So... what does GLA get? Another tank job? That would be completely pointless and not in line with what Yoshida stated about classes getting jobs that changed their role.

GLA will end up getting a damage-dealer job, and it will "negate" abilities, just like ACN's damage dealing abilities are "negated" on SCH.

The benefit of GLA and MRD getting damage-dealer jobs will be that they can effectively offtank in emergencies, just like SCH and WHM can somewhat effectively deal damage in emergencies, and WAR can do a little damage as well.

RE: New jobs for current classes - Yssen - 02-13-2014

(02-13-2014, 04:08 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: So... what does GLA get? Another tank job? That would be completely pointless and not in line with what Yoshida stated about classes getting jobs that changed their role.

GLA will end up getting a damage-dealer job, and it will "negate" abilities, just like ACN's damage dealing abilities are "negated" on SCH.

The benefit of GLA and MRD getting damage-dealer jobs will be that they can effectively offtank in emergencies, just like SCH and WHM can somewhat effectively deal damage in emergencies, and WAR can do a little damage as well.
 It very well may. We all like DRK and we all want them to put it in. Heck it was my main in XI. I want it bad, and will absolutely play it no matter what form it takes. 

Jobs do change class roles. SCH is a great example, but SCH does not lose any Arcanist abilities at all, save for the two summons becoming healing and support based pets. It just fails to gain any SMN abilities. The transformation is based as much on the job abilities it gains, as well as the transition of the pets from dd/tank to support/healing. 

All that people are pointing out with the MRD over GLA argument is that the transition is easier branching out of MRD, as opposed to branching out of GLA. Are they right that DRK will spawn out of MRD? Who knows. MRD has many abilities that one would attribute to a DRK. Bloodbath is Blood Weapon, Vengeance is similar to Dread Spikes, Scythe animations could easily share the same animation as the Great Axe (in XI, they were the same animation). It is correct that branching DRK from MRD would be the easier fit. They could still be wrong, though.

DRK could branch out from the Great Sword wielding class they have mentioned being tested. The two planned jobs for it could easily be DRK and what ever they are going to call SAM. It could, though it is super unlikely, also branch from Musketeer, because Yoshi-P is an awesome crazy person who feels DRKs should use guns. One sec, I am going to take a moment to reflect how freaking awesome that could be for a second. Mmmm. There, moment over. It could also branch from some class that they have not even teased us with. (Sidenote - Yoshi-P has mentioned that we will be getting NIN and SAM, they are just not going to be called NIN and SAM.) 

I like GLA, I really do. And I really love Paladin. As far as a pure DD class branching out of it, I dunno. GLA is set up as a straight up tank from a class stand point. PLD enhances this, crazily. Do not forget that they had to modify WAR to make it a tank on par with PLD. I mean, WARs have to cross class two abilities from it to be full on effective tanks. What we are really talking about here is the difference in changing two abilities (like with SCH) and giving nearly every single ability a class has a complete overhaul. Can it be done? Yes. Will they do it? I think it is unlikely. It is way more work than I think they will find necessary. I also think that they approached each class with a plan as to what jobs it would branch into. Evidence is seen in SCH and SMN. Both have vastly different roles as Jobs, but they build off of the same root. A healer/dps that focuses on damage over time as opposed to bursting. GLA is awesome, but it is not a DD. DRK is a DD. That is how they are looking at it. That is how it was listed when the mentioned it int the poll. To be specific "A damage dealer that deals special damage (Dark Knight)."

Still. I could be wrong. We all could be, and our lives will not be completely ruined if DRK does not branch off of what we would like it to. Lets focus on the excitement of what jobs besides DRK could possibly branch off of GLA. Fencer? Mystic Knight? Templar? Onion Knight? There are wide open possibilities. Yar.

RE: New jobs for current classes - Sounsyy - 02-13-2014

(02-13-2014, 04:08 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: So... what does GLA get? Another tank job? That would be completely pointless and not in line with what Yoshida stated about classes getting jobs that changed their role.

I think it's a little silly to expect all 7 original classes to all change role. I think we're still going to wind up with DD to DD at the very least. Because we don't need many more tanks/healers if I'm honest. The more classes you add per role, the harder it is to balance them. And if you don't balance them enough to where each class is viable in all content, then you get class stacking or you just get classes that no one plays anymore. I know this was a huge problem for SE in XI. 

As for GLA, I really don't know what it would get besides a tank. It's just not built for anything else. But a friend of mine and I were discussing this very issue a while back and he suggested Gladiator into Machinist (FFVI's Edgar). Machinist(MCH) would be a tank, but would focus on being a Debuff tank, utilizing "Break"-type abilities like Weapon Break, Armor Break, etc. So this is what we came up with:

MCH 30: Debilitator - Lowers damage dealt by 30% while doubling the duration of all negative status effects on target, and increasing enmity. Effect ends upon reuse.

MCH 35: Noiseblaster - Strikes shield to create a soundwave which lowers nearby targets' magical defense for 15s. Can only be used immediately following a block. MP Cost: 200

MCH 40: Drill - Delivers an attack with a potency of 200. Additional Effect: Reduces target's Slashing, Piercing, and Blunt resistance for 20s. CD: 90s

MCH 45: Chainsaw - Delivers an attack with a potency of 250. Combos off of Riot Blade. Combo Action: Reduces target's attack power for 15s.

MCH 50: Anchor - Binds and pacifies user, while increasing user's Defense and Magic Defense by 50% and increasing enmity in all engaged targets. Duration: 10s. CD: 300s.


So the Machinist takes what already makes GLA's great, which is their defense and mitigation abilities, and compounds the GLA's survivability by weakening the incoming damage at its source. Adding a debuff WS that combos off of Riot Blade also gives MCH a reason to use an alternate tree besides spamming Rage of Halone. Also having an ability that procs off of a Shield Block makes so much dang sense for the only class that uses a shield. An AoE debuff that is highly favorable to BRD's, BLM's, and SMN's dps also makes Riot Blade a useful ability since Noiseblaster would require MP. 

The obvious problem with Machinist is that it completely overshadows PLD. No one would want PLD if MCH could offer all these increases to DPS vs the only thing PLD could bring to the table would be +20% natural damage mitigation over MCH and the ability to invincible and still put out dps. Whenever you look at which class is going to be most favorable to the party, it will ALWAYS be the class that facilitates better dps and faster kill times out of a party. DPS is everything in MMOs.



(02-13-2014, 04:08 AM)synaesthetic Wrote: GLA will end up getting a damage-dealer job, and it will "negate" abilities, just like ACN's damage dealing abilities are "negated" on SCH.

The benefit of GLA and MRD getting damage-dealer jobs will be that they can effectively offtank in emergencies, just like SCH and WHM can somewhat effectively deal damage in emergencies, and WAR can do a little damage as well.

ACN's class abilities are in no way negated on SCH btw. On SCH you should always be assisting with dps in between heals. Even more so than WHM because you have a healing fairy that will take over heals for you to do it. In any content below Coil, I just let the fairy heal most everything and deal damage the entire dungeon. I buff and throw in assist physicks and adloquiems as necessary. Cleric stance is super easy to pop on and off. Even in Coil T4 our SCH is right there cleric stance'd and burning Dreadnaughts with the rest of the DD. 

If you're good, you can heal and deal a worthwhile amount of damage on every single fight. This contributes to the party's effort and hastens the fight. This utility is in no way comparable to a DD class that stems off of GLA and has zero use or utility for 9 of their abilities on a fight-to-fight basis. A DD popping Sentinel when they aren't taking any damage in no way aids your party with clearing trash mobs quicker. Versus a SCH throwing Bio II > Miasma > Bio > Bane, effectively adding 3 more DoTs against the attacking party. This is noticeably helpful in fights where you don't have an additional ACN or SMN.

But the point I'm trying to get across is that no matter which DD job stems off of GLA, their dps will suffer horribly because they don't have any DD abilities or buffs from their base class, because their base class wastes 9 abilities on the hope that the party's tank dies every fight.

RE: New jobs for current classes - synaesthetic - 02-13-2014

Then explain to me how Gladiator's abilities will be "negated" just because it's in a damage stance?

Do you know what the fucking quotes mean or are you just dense? I play scholar in endgame content. I know how to play; I'm not a complete moron like you seem to think I am.

I just fucking said that the point of giving a damage-dealing role to a tank class like Gladiator makes a lot of sense because they can drop their goddamned damage stance and offtank crazy mobs in emergencies, then reactivate it and resume doing damage. Hell, in an earlier post I explained exactly how DRK being a GLA job would be absolutely amazing for fights like Garuda EX, where you sometimes need three tanks (cyclone phase) but mostly just need two!

BUT NO. You continue to insult my intelligence by misrepresenting my position. The lot of ya'll are just so bound up in the idea that DRK has to have a two-handed sword or scythe or axe and be exactly fuckin' like it was from FFXI because none of you can let go of the goddamned past.

AND BESIDES I already outlined a way to make it so the only, the only, the absolute only abilities being wasted on a GLA-derived DRK, would be things like their defensive cooldowns. Which, if I remember correctly, other damage-dealers have and don't use unless they get aggro. Well, duuuuuh. But since you clearly can't read (but can somehow write, not really sure how that works), you completely missed the Darkside toggled ability (or stance, if you will) that DRK would get at level 30 upon completing their class quest.

Darkside, as the name might suggest, allows the dark knight to indulge in their... dark side. All of the additional enmity effects are stripped from their weaponskills, abilities and spells. Their base damage is improved by 20% and their damage taken is increased by 15%. Oh, look, nothing at all has been made useless except: Provoke... and that's it! Everything else still has a use. Maybe it's situational, but it still has a use. Even Flash can still be used to apply Blind.

RE: New jobs for current classes - Yssen - 02-13-2014

(02-13-2014, 12:20 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: Then explain to me how Gladiator's abilities will be "negated" just because it's in a damage stance?

Do you know what the fucking quotes mean or are you just dense? I play scholar in endgame content. I know how to play; I'm not a complete moron like you seem to think I am.

I just fucking said that the point of giving a damage-dealing role to a tank class like Gladiator makes a lot of sense because they can drop their goddamned damage stance and offtank crazy mobs in emergencies, then reactivate it and resume doing damage. Hell, in an earlier post I explained exactly how DRK being a GLA job would be absolutely amazing for fights like Garuda EX, where you sometimes need three tanks (cyclone phase) but mostly just need two!

BUT NO. You continue to insult my intelligence by misrepresenting my position. The lot of ya'll are just so bound up in the idea that DRK has to have a two-handed sword or scythe or axe and be exactly fuckin' like it was from FFXI because none of you can let go of the goddamned past.

AND BESIDES I already outlined a way to make it so the only, the only, the absolute only abilities being wasted on a GLA-derived DRK, would be things like their defensive cooldowns. Which, if I remember correctly, other damage-dealers have and don't use unless they get aggro. Well, duuuuuh. But since you clearly can't read (but can somehow write, not really sure how that works), you completely missed the Darkside toggled ability (or stance, if you will) that DRK would get at level 30 upon completing their class quest.

Darkside, as the name might suggest, allows the dark knight to indulge in their... dark side. All of the additional enmity effects are stripped from their weaponskills, abilities and spells. Their base damage is improved by 20% and their damage taken is increased by 15%. Oh, look, nothing at all has been made useless except: Provoke... and that's it! Everything else still has a use. Maybe it's situational, but it still has a use. Even Flash can still be used to apply Blind.

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. 

No one here called you a moron or attempted to insult you. This response is a bit heated and uncalled for. You have your opinion, and you are more than entitled to it. You are not, however, entitled to insult anyone else because you happen to disagree with others. No one here deserves to be called dense, or have their ability to read called into question simply because you would like things one way, and they see things another. Take some time, calm down, and lets move on to discussing something else. This appears to be a bit of a heated topic for some.

RE: New jobs for current classes - Naunet - 02-13-2014

(02-13-2014, 10:29 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: I think it's a little silly to expect all 7 original classes to all change role. I think we're still going to wind up with DD to DD at the very least. Because we don't need many more tanks/healers if I'm honest. The more classes you add per role, the harder it is to balance them. And if you don't balance them enough to where each class is viable in all content, then you get class stacking or you just get classes that no one plays anymore. I know this was a huge problem for SE in XI. 

This is the kind of "logic" that's getting my beloved Reaver changed from a tank soul to a dps soul, and I'll ask the same question: why is it possible to have too many tanks to balance but never too many dps? This game has a grand total of two tank jobs (and two healer jobs); that's absurdly low. I would hope they would add more tank (and healer) jobs in the future because of this. Variety is important. What if someone wants to tank but they don't enjoy the flavor/aesthetics/mechanics of PLD or WAR? Considering how few people want to tank compared to dps, it seems pretty darn important to make sure you rope in as many folk as possible into that role by giving them appealing options.

(And seriously. Why is 3 tank souls too many in warrior calling, but 7 dps souls in the mage calling are just fine?? Uggggggggh. /rage)

RE: New jobs for current classes - TheLastCandle - 02-13-2014

I agree that more tank jobs would be MORE than welcome. I fondly remember FFXI's Ninja tanks and would like to see something of that nature: an agility-based tank. For the same reason I like LOTRO's Warden tank, WoW's Druidic bear form, and SWTOR's Jedi Shadow/Sith Assassin. "A tank not encased in metal?! PREPOSTEROUS!" Shaking things up is always fun.

RE: New jobs for current classes - Sounsyy - 02-13-2014

No one is insulting you or your intelligence, please be courteous enough to do the same. Nowhere in this thread have you mentioned that you main a SCH, so I apologize for going into the workings of SCH gameplay when writing my responses. It was not meant as an insult.

I would like to politely discuss this, but if we cannot than this will be my last comment in this thread. 

(02-13-2014, 12:20 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: ...the point of giving a damage-dealing role to a tank class like Gladiator makes a lot of sense because they can drop their goddamned damage stance and offtank crazy mobs in emergencies...

While I would agree that having a situational offtank-ready class would be nice to have(It used to be Lancer.), I think the important part of your argument is "in emergencies." If you and I are the people designing new Jobs and combat, we have to take a look at how often are these "emergencies" likely to happen? Between a good tank and a good healer the answer is, very rarely.

If we take a look at GLA's arsenal of skills, you can see that 9 of GLA's abilities have no use if the GLA is not tanking. (Rampart, Flash, Convalescence, Shield Lob, Provoke, Shield Swipe, Awareness, Sentinel, and Bulwark.) Each class has a total of 17 abilities. This means that 53% of GLA's arsenal is only helpful for a very unique "emergency" situation to a non-tank Job.

(02-13-2014, 12:20 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: The lot of ya'll are just so bound up in the idea that DRK has to have a two-handed sword or scythe or axe and be exactly fuckin' like it was from FFXI because none of you can let go of the goddamned past.

I have no weapon preferences for DRK. It was a class I was not fond of in XI. Therefor I have no attachments to it. My reasoning for MRD > DRK was purely style based, nothing to do with weapon. I believe they share more in common and work more fluidly together than GLA > DRK. IMO.

(02-13-2014, 12:20 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: AND BESIDES I already outlined a way to make it so the only, the only, the absolute only abilities being wasted on a GLA-derived DRK, would be things like their defensive cooldowns. Which, if I remember correctly, other damage-dealers have and don't use unless they get aggro.

I've already covered what percentage of GLA's abilities are defensive cooldowns, but I wanted to compare that to what other DD classes have. Lancer's only defensive cooldown is Keen Flurry. 1/17. Pugilist's only defensive cooldown is Featherfoot. 1/17. And you are correct in saying that Lancer and Pugilist usually do not use these abilities unless they are solo or have taken hate. Now compare at 9/17 abilities that will not be used unless DRK takes hate, which in most situations, should not happen. At this point you've built a stronger DRK tank role than a DRK dd role.

(02-13-2014, 12:20 PM)synaesthetic Wrote: Darkside, as the name might suggest, allows the dark knight to indulge in their... dark side. All of the additional enmity effects are stripped from their weaponskills, abilities and spells. Their base damage is improved by 20% and their damage taken is increased by 15%.

I've stated before what my problem is with this move. It's a magical, deus ex machina toggle ability that magically fixes everything by completely trashing the concept of the original class. 

For comparison, switching to SCH does not change the effects or traits of any of your class abilities. And unless this all powerful toggle changes Sentinel into a damage buff too, your DRK is still 9 abilities in the dps hole. The next obvious question becomes: why use this melee dps Job in a party setting when I could go DRG or MNK who are both fully purposed into wrecking face? If I wanted to bring a tank/dps hybrid Job to my party, I'd just take a Warrior, honestly.

Maybe if you fleshed out your idea for DRK a little more beyond Toggle and Done, I wouldn't be misunderstanding you as much as you say I am? Show me how your DRK would function and why it'd be more viable on GLA than on MRD or on a completely new class.



EDIT:
(02-13-2014, 01:21 PM)Naunet Wrote: I'll ask the same question: why is it possible to have too many tanks to balance but never too many dps? This game has a grand total of two tank jobs (and two healer jobs); that's absurdly low. I would hope they would add more tank (and healer) jobs in the future because of this.

I'm seriously of the opinion that we don't really need any more jobs. But that's not gonna happen. I would say that 3 tanks and 3-4 healers would be enough. I think the problem with tanks is that even between PLD and WAR it's a constant dick measuring contest between which is better.

As for DD, I think the only extra DD class we need is a Scout type. (I'm a huge supporter of Musketeer > Thief.) Other than that, we don't really need more classes. It's all just aesthetics at this point. But almost all MMOs suffer from older classes getting lost between the cracks as they release more and more jobs, which almost always seem to be DDs that do the exact same thing as the last DD.

RE: New jobs for current classes - synaesthetic - 02-13-2014

(02-13-2014, 02:00 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote: I agree that more tank jobs would be MORE than welcome. I fondly remember FFXI's Ninja tanks and would like to see something of that nature: an agility-based tank. For the same reason I like LOTRO's Warden tank, WoW's Druidic bear form, and SWTOR's Jedi Shadow/Sith Assassin. "A tank not encased in metal?! PREPOSTEROUS!" Shaking things up is always fun.

I'd love to see lancer get a parry-based tank job, and if the "Fencer" class is ever introduced, it would be the perfect place to stick Mystic Knight as an evasion/self-buff tank.

And when musketeer is added, while it gets Corsair as it's damage job, it ought to get Machinist and function as a pet-based tank; where the pet tanks and the Machinist (Puppetmaster, see what I did there) buffs the pet and helps it build hate via its own damage, transferring enmity in a sort of Trick Attack like manner. Big Grin

RE: New jobs for current classes - synaesthetic - 02-13-2014

(02-13-2014, 02:17 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: Maybe if you fleshed out your idea for DRK a little more beyond Toggle and Done, I wouldn't be misunderstanding you as much as you say I am? Show me how your DRK would function and why it'd be more viable on GLA than on MRD or on a completely new class.

You really, really did not read my post.

The DRK outline that I described has them doing pretty much what every other damage dealer in the game does: using a rotation and managing some class mechanic. For BLM it's your Astral Fire and Umbral Ice cycles. For SMN it's managing MP and Aetherflow charges. For MNK it's your Greased Lightning stacks. For DRG it's managing flanking bonuses. For BRD it's weaving Bloodletters between the GCD.

For DRK it's managing your MP and Blood Plague and Lethal Venom DoTs, which you have to make sure expire right around the same time, so you can land Soul Eater in that little window between 1 second remaining and the DoT falling off. So you do that by adjusting your standard damage rotation, weaving Drain between global cooldowns to restore MP, using your Riot Blade combo (but not using Lethal Strike, since that'd reset the duration of your DoT and you want both to tick close to 0 simultaneously) to restore MP, making sure you have the huge MP cost necessary to use Soul Eater when your DoTs tick down to near-zero.

Honestly I don't get what the hell your problem is since the little design I did for a GLA-based DRK is actually more complex and deep than most of the damage dealers we already have. Yes, they lose a lot of their abilities when performing their role, but so does scholar, and yes as a scholar I will DPS but only when I don't need to heal. Eos cannot make up for my healing and mitigation powers on the tank when Twintania is hitting the tank like a Mack truck. Similarly, a GLA-based DRK would lose their tanking abilities when performing their role, just like SCH loses ACN's damage abilities when performing its role. But they could both fall back upon the roles of their base classes when necessary.

RE: New jobs for current classes - Yssen - 02-13-2014

Honestly, the game could probably use another tank. I am unsure if that tank should be attached to a new class or come from an existing one. I do think that that tank should play differently than the other tanks that already exist. WAR plays different than PLD, and new tanks should play different from both WAR and PLD.

Likely this can be accomplished by having the new tank have some sort of new mechanic. Something similar to how WAR has wrath and such, but not exactly the same. Shadows are a good option if one wants to think the NIN route. Set ups with different runes or something would work well to have a Rune Fencer/Mystic Knight thing going on. Maybe even something that relies on debuffing the enemy to tank more effectively. Someting that strips the incoming hits of their bite, rather than building up its own defense. That could be the route of either a Templar or a Mystic Knight, and could prove to be pretty interesting. Heck all three of those ideas could be combined to make something pretty intersting. Runes or tools that debuff, create shadows, etc. Give it a new resource or mechanic to manage and we have not only something different, but something that meshes well with the other tank in the party. Similar to the fun synergy stuff that can be pulled off between WAR and PLD.

I mean, they have said that the set up for us as far as role will eventually break down into 2 Tanks, 2 DDs, 2 Healers, and 2 Hybrid. New ways to mesh party play are always interesting.

RE: New jobs for current classes - synaesthetic - 02-13-2014

I still think Machinist as a pet-based Job for Musketeer would make a fantastic tank with a different spin. They could use their automaton to tank, building its enmity up by using their own damage abilities, and since Musketeer uses guns and is ranged, they'd be well away from the pet and able to avoid AE while raising their automaton's enmity, buffing it and working to mitigate damage against it. They could set it up similarly to a Soul Link demonology warlock from WoW, where they use a stance ability so that part of the damage taken by the automaton is shared with the Machinist and part of the healing received by the Machinist is shared with the automaton.

We already have a pet-based healer and a pet-based damage dealer, so why not a pet-based tank? Big Grin

RE: New jobs for current classes - KitKat - 02-14-2014

(02-13-2014, 10:29 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: MCH 35: Noiseblaster - Strikes shield to create a soundwave which lowers nearby targets' magical defense for 15s. Can only be used immediately following a block. MP Cost: 200

Noiseblaster is an instant "Yes, please!" from me. That noise still haunts me to this day: UwaaaHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

RE: New jobs for current classes - TheLastCandle - 02-14-2014

(02-14-2014, 06:00 AM)TheCurls Wrote:
(02-13-2014, 10:29 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: MCH 35: Noiseblaster - Strikes shield to create a soundwave which lowers nearby targets' magical defense for 15s. Can only be used immediately following a block. MP Cost: 200

Noiseblaster is an instant "Yes, please!" from me. That noise still haunts me to this day: UwaaaHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

My favorite:

[Image: 46-chainsaw.jpg]