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Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - Printable Version

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RE: Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - LiadansWhisper - 07-21-2014

(07-21-2014, 02:12 PM)TheLastCandle Wrote: Sometimes I think people have a serious persecution complex when it comes to criticism of Ul'dah/the Syndicate/Momodi's popoto souffle. Lolorito is pretty clearly acting selfishly for his own gain. I'd say he's hovering somewhere between Neutral Evil/True Neutral using the D&D scale. I usually hesitate to apply the system to characters not in a D&D setting where there is a very tangible presence of "good" and "evil."

Yeah, it's really kind of amusing, tbh.

(07-21-2014, 02:17 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: We know what happened when refugees did flee to Gridania/The Shroud though. The sylphs freaked out. Assuming the elementals either allowed, put up with, or couldn't do anything about it, Ul'dah was made to be the manufactured choice because it has that "American Dream" idea of pushing up the ranks. ...they just don't tell people that it's probably impossible.

Far as I can tell, Gridania took every single refugee they could without upsetting the Elementals.  But they were also directly on the front lines of the Ala Mhigan border, so I could see why people would be worried about settling there - what with the bad blood between the two city-states, the Garleans, AND possibly violent Elementals policing the place.

And yeah, the "American Dream" angle makes sense.

(07-21-2014, 02:17 PM)Natalie Mcbeef Wrote: They came to Ul'dah because it was literally the only place that will take them.

That's simply not true.  :-\  Where are you getting this?  I know you love Ul'dah, but seriously...

Quote:Gridania is Xenophobic, and turned away everyone they could,

While Gridania is xenophobic, they did not, as far as I can tell, "turn away everyone they could." They took as many refugees as they could without breaking their pact with the Twelveswood.  Around this time, btw, the Sylphs summoned Ramuh for the first time - in direct reasponse to the influx of refugees and the Garlean troops moving through the forest.  Gridania managed to calm them down, but when a second wave of refugees came tromping through the forest, the Sylphs freaked out again, and summoned Ramuh a second time.

Quote:they probably couldn't afford the boat to Limsa,

Apparently some of them could, because Limsa did take refugees in, and as a result ended up with both Titan and Leviathan summoned.  So that was great.

Quote:and Ishgard is closed.

Ishgard actually has some refugees working for them in Coerthas.  I think a better rationale is that a) Ala Mhigo and Ishgard didn't get along in the first place and b) it's a frozen wasteland and people don't like frozen wastelands filled with religious fantatics.

Quote:Ul'dah could have just turned them back into the desert, and they'd be nothing but a footnote in some quests. Instead it makes an honest effort to take care of them. While you say that Gridania took in some but stopped after they hit their limit. Ul'dah is way over it's limit, that's why there is so much turmoil. Ul'dah can't keep supporting these people, but they are trying as long as they can. So I don't get why Ul'dah and the syndicate get painted so unfavorably because of the refugee problem.

It's because of how they have chosen to deal with it.  The Syndicate is portrayed, in quest text and cutscene, as taking advantage of the refugees as much as possible and basically making their plight worse in order to achieve political and economic goals.  It's interesting to note that most of the refugees jump at the chance to work for a decent employer who will actually pay them a decent wage - and make comments that imply that many of them can't find jobs in Ul'dah, or if they do, they're underpaid or not paid at all.

I am actually surprised that Ul'dah didn't draft most of them into the army and make a special unit just for the refugees.  Gridania has one.  Smile

RE: Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - Aduu Avagnar - 07-21-2014

as has been stated, making hard decisions, does not absolve you of them, and Intent is everything. Lolorito, through what we have seen, has only done things that benefit him, or when strongarmed into it when the Syndicate vote was against him.

RE: Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - Kage - 07-21-2014

The Immortal Flames has the Ala Mhigan Brigade.

RE: Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - McBeefâ„¢ - 07-21-2014

(07-21-2014, 02:25 PM)ExKage Wrote: I'd wager more that Telediji is evil.

Lolorito himself is bankrolling the Brass Blades which is why they resort to bribes. A single man's company (especially an Ul'dahn man) cannot just fun an entire city-state's law enforcement. They still give their lives up for it. If they were evil, maybe I just don't know the D&D alignment system, but if they were they'd just let everyone die and say "yeah we couldn't save them."

True, the brass blades are essentially Lorilito's private army. While they are sometimes shown to be quite corrupt, they are *always* shown as willing to put their lives on the line to proect Ul'dah and its people, even at the cost of profit. I think the same thing is true of Lorilito himself, but we won't know until we get more story about him.

RE: Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - LiadansWhisper - 07-21-2014

(07-21-2014, 02:31 PM)ExKage Wrote: The Immortal Flames has the Ala Mhigan Brigade.

Thanks for the clarification.  I was curious!  I still don't know why they don't just make a mercenary group out of the vast majority of them.  I mean, most of the refugees are depicted (in cutscenes/NPCs, anyway) as seemingly hale and hearty adult men and women.  Yet they're just standing around doing nothing?

RE: Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - Aya - 07-21-2014

(07-21-2014, 02:33 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(07-21-2014, 02:31 PM)ExKage Wrote: The Immortal Flames has the Ala Mhigan Brigade.

Thanks for the clarification.  I was curious!  I still don't know why they don't just make a mercenary group out of the vast majority of them.  I mean, most of the refugees are depicted (in cutscenes/NPCs, anyway) as seemingly hale and hearty adult men and women.  Yet they're just standing around doing nothing?
Attack on Titan anyone?  Its time for a grand offensive against the Garleans, time to retake Ala Mhigo, huzzah!

RE: Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - LiadansWhisper - 07-21-2014

(07-21-2014, 02:37 PM)Aya Wrote:
(07-21-2014, 02:33 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(07-21-2014, 02:31 PM)ExKage Wrote: The Immortal Flames has the Ala Mhigan Brigade.

Thanks for the clarification.  I was curious!  I still don't know why they don't just make a mercenary group out of the vast majority of them.  I mean, most of the refugees are depicted (in cutscenes/NPCs, anyway) as seemingly hale and hearty adult men and women.  Yet they're just standing around doing nothing?
Attack on Titan anyone?  Its time for a grand offensive against the Garleans, time to retake Ala Mhigo, huzzah!

I'm up for it!

You lead the charge, Aya.  *puts flag in your hands*

RE: Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - Unnamed Mercenary - 07-21-2014

(07-21-2014, 02:37 PM)Aya Wrote: Attack on Titan anyone?  Its time for a grand offensive against the Garleans, time to retake Ala Mhigo, huzzah!

I'm really hoping we get this in a patch sometime. I think it'd make an excellent storyline. ...but I can't imagine something like that happening until an expansion, because we'd need more maps. The same could be said for Ishgard. (Maybe entry would require a certain progression of MSQ or something as a flag)

RE: Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - FreelanceWizard - 07-21-2014

(07-21-2014, 02:10 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I like the Alignment system as a framework.  It's a great place to start!  That or you can use the..crap, I forget the name...there's a vaguely similar system in White Wolf's game system that combines personality traits with a humanity/morality system without bringing "Good" and "evil" into the equation.

Yep. Smile D&D alignment (or Palladium alignment, or WoD morality, or what have you) is a really good shorthand for a character's general behavior and outlook, which is why I have a section for it on L'yhta's wiki (CG or Unprincipled, probably about Humanity 5-6ish in oWoD terms because of her enjoyment of mass property damage). I do feel that the WoD system is probably the best fit for settings where good and evil don't really play an objective role, since its degeneration system means that you eventually become inured to lesser "crimes." This is a good fit for the "politician who turns dark over time" story, which I guess is no surprise why it works so well in V:tM and so ineptly in nWoD Mage. Smile

What's really interesting is when you get into the implications of the Exalted alignment system, wherein your strengths ultimately turn into weaknesses, or some game that I can't recall right now where you have Drives to achieve ends, but the more you're driven, the more you do wicked things to get your way.

At this point I'm terribly off-topic. Smile

RE: Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - McBeefâ„¢ - 07-21-2014

(07-21-2014, 02:39 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(07-21-2014, 02:37 PM)Aya Wrote:
(07-21-2014, 02:33 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(07-21-2014, 02:31 PM)ExKage Wrote: The Immortal Flames has the Ala Mhigan Brigade.

Thanks for the clarification.  I was curious!  I still don't know why they don't just make a mercenary group out of the vast majority of them.  I mean, most of the refugees are depicted (in cutscenes/NPCs, anyway) as seemingly hale and hearty adult men and women.  Yet they're just standing around doing nothing?
Attack on Titan anyone?  Its time for a grand offensive against the Garleans, time to retake Ala Mhigo, huzzah!

I'm up for it!

You lead the charge, Aya.  *puts flag in your hands*

*Ifrit comes back with like a billion tempered*

Guys... maybe we didnt think this through.

RE: Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - Kage - 07-21-2014

I think they're painting the refugees as needing proper motivation, just wanting to have it thrown into their lap.

I personally remember scenes where Ul'dahn citizens were upset by the refugees but that's because they see them as a drain on their resources (*cough*Illegal Immigration*cough). I don't remember complete roadblocks in their way.

But you see (Ala Mhigan) refugees who get taken in by the notions of summoning Rhaglr? or them willing to start -violent- protests with arms supplied by
Show Content
for his own agenda.

I thought that it was heavily implied that the Domans could not look elsewhere than Ul'dah. NOT SURE WHY, but everyone just says "their internal affairs are ____" but what makes that much different than Ul'dah? Just one primal presence? They -do- have Ifrit who quite HAPPILY tempers everyone and has the Amalj'aa temper people (versus what Ramuh does, what Titan does, what leviathan does - based on the Sahagin "we were forced cause you're taking our breeding grounds) for him.

I don't know. I just see Ul'dah as the closest to America as any of the nations can get.

But we can't all be humanitarians. Resources are limited and Ul'dah's resources are just that, limited.

RE: Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - McBeefâ„¢ - 07-21-2014

(07-21-2014, 02:45 PM)ExKage Wrote: I think they're painting the refugees as needing proper motivation, just wanting to have it thrown into their lap.

I personally remember scenes where Ul'dahn citizens were upset by the refugees but that's because they see them as a drain on their resources (*cough*Illegal Immigration*cough). I don't remember complete roadblocks in their way.

But you see (Ala Mhigan) refugees who get taken in by the notions of summoning Rhaglr? or them willing to start -violent- protests with arms supplied by
Show Content
for his own agenda.

I thought that it was heavily implied that the Domans could not look elsewhere than Ul'dah. NOT SURE WHY, but everyone just says "their internal affairs are ____" but what makes that much different than Ul'dah? Just one primal presence? They -do- have Ifrit who quite HAPPILY tempers everyone and has the Amalj'aa temper people (versus what Ramuh does, what Titan does, what leviathan does - based on the Sahagin "we were forced cause you're taking our breeding grounds) for him.

I don't know. I just see Ul'dah as the closest to America as any of the nations can get.

But we can't all be humanitarians. Resources are limited and Ul'dah's resources are just that, limited.

The primal thing is an interesting side topic. Ifrit seems to be the only truly 'evil' primal, and the only one who would probably destroy eorzea if left alone
It seems most of the other primals could be dealt woth using sufficient diplomacy towards their beast tribe summoners.

RE: Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - Unnamed Mercenary - 07-21-2014

(07-21-2014, 02:41 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: What's really interesting is when you get into the implications of the Exalted alignment system, wherein your strengths ultimately turn into weaknesses, or some game that I can't recall right now where you have Drives to achieve ends, but the more you're driven, the more you do wicked things to get your way.

At this point I'm terribly off-topic. Smile

off topic response: Exalted's system was amazing. A friend of mine had run a game and I had the joy of being involved. 

on topics: Eorzea needs more resources. Let's take back Ala'Mhigo!

RE: Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - Verad - 07-21-2014

(07-21-2014, 02:41 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Yep. Smile D&D alignment (or Palladium alignment, or WoD morality, or what have you) is a really good shorthand for a character's general behavior and outlook, which is why I have a section for it on L'yhta's wiki (CG or Unprincipled, probably about Humanity 5-6ish in oWoD terms because of her enjoyment of mass property damage). I do feel that the WoD system is probably the best fit for settings where good and evil don't really play an objective role, since its degeneration system means that you eventually become inured to lesser "crimes." This is a good fit for the "politician who turns dark over time" story, which I guess is no surprise why it works so well in V:tM and so ineptly in nWoD Mage. Smile

What's really interesting is when you get into the implications of the Exalted alignment system, wherein your strengths ultimately turn into weaknesses, or some game that I can't recall right now where you have Drives to achieve ends, but the more you're driven, the more you do wicked things to get your way.

At this point I'm terribly off-topic. Smile

But it is an interesting topic! And so there shall be a spin-off.

RE: Syndicate 'Lawful Neutral' group (some 2.3 story spoilers) - Melkire - 07-21-2014

Lolorito is a corrupt, scheming, self-interested scumbag that furthers his own well-being at the explicit expense of others' ... and this is, to the extent of my knowledge, supported by the MSQ. 

There. I said it. I'm out.