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Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Printable Version

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RE: Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Kailia - 08-04-2014

(08-04-2014, 06:13 AM)Roswyn Wrote: You don't need an Echo power, or a job, or a massive rank in the military while also being a master chef, alchemist, and accomplished Summoner all at the ripe age of 17 while winning beauty pageants. FrustratedFrustratedFrustrated

Yeah such an example would make someone too powerful ICly. That's why my own char, she doesn't have the echo, she doesn't have a massive rank in the serpents, the only thing she's good at is elemental based magic, with white magic healing, and some basic weaving (IC and OOC she can't even sew 2 or 3 star recipes lol)

I think if people want to RP the jobs, they should be able to, without being scorned or harassed. As long as their character isn't a marry sue, and still follows an interpretation of the lore that makes them having such a job, fit, then it is alright with me.

Someone being every job though? I don't think so. Heck, one could RP a summoner job, without being the job. For example, rather than summon an egi of the primals, what if instead, they were an elementalist that could produce the elemental themselves. Like instead of Ifrit-Egi, it ends up being just a fire elemental.

I have yet to see any summoner, try that approach. It would be an interesting approach to say the least.

RE: Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Berrod Armstrong - 08-04-2014

(08-04-2014, 06:27 AM)K Wrote: Someone being every job though? I don't think so. 
That brings up another thing I wonder about. 

Perhaps a character can't be EVERY job, but what about two or three? I've never explored that much before. Can a Monk also be a Warrior? What are your thoughts on that?

I play Berrod as a Monk, hands down, soul crystal and everything. That's the only 'job' he has, BUT! He has Gladiator and Marauder training (which he's actually good at) and has taken lessons with the archer's and lancer's guild (He suuuuucks at those, don't even ask him to shoot an arrow). 

Due to his aetheric proficiency (or lack, thereof, in some areas) he is unable to employ conjury or thaumaturgy -- and he HATES TO READ AND CANNOT MATH, so arcanima is out of the question for him. So! While he may have only one 'job', I have given him skill in two other 'classes'. 

As for the white mage issue, I see a discrepancy between the questline's ONE AND ONLY and the dungeon quest's 'HEY WHM!' -- in addition to the fact that adventurers are allowed inside Amdapor ("OH HEY, A SOUL CRYSTAL IN THE MOLD!"). I wonder if we can have some clarification from the lore forums...

Stuff to think about!

RE: Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Kellach Woods - 08-04-2014

It's worth asking the lore forums for sure.

RE: Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Mercurias - 08-04-2014

(08-04-2014, 07:43 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: That brings up another thing I wonder about. 

Perhaps a character can't be EVERY job, but what about two or three? I've never explored that much before. Can a Monk also be a Warrior? What are your thoughts on that?

Stuff to think about!

I honestly think it's fine, and the Lore basically tells you to go for it and learn what you can on the subject. It also gives you a chance to mix and match some things to customize your character's experience level.

That being said, I think that age/experience/history should probably have a LOT to weigh into this. Dabbling in multiple fighting styles/crafts is normal. Being the best at all of then when you're seventeen is probably not.

Think about how long it would take to do something like learn to master your own Aether through meditation or drill thousands of spear thrusts and parries until the moves are burned into your muscle memory. Then think about how long it would take to call on that training in the middle of a fight. This is going to be years of investment in time and energy.

I'd imagine that even the aetherically gifted would take years before being able to control their spells in battle, while many of the disciples of war would possibly take about the same time to become considered 'skilled' by their peers.

Personally, I roleplay that my own character grew up being trained with an axe and adopted the armor later in life and finds it cumbersome and his axe skills rusty from disuse.

He also had a 'lost period' where he studied for a year each in Thaumaturgy and Conjury. The best he can managed with Thaumaturgy after a year is ice cubes and lighting candles before he would make an explosion, and his Conjury is only slightly better (with a natural advantage that means he picked up a lot on the way).

His focus for the last four years has been Arcanima, and even after wholehearted dedication, he's only just recently come to the point where he's actually writing his own versions of spells and considers himself a Journeyman. Acquiring a fairy has led him to further experimenting, but he's still only just scratched the surface of what Scholar Magic can do.

In other words, he's dabbled in lots of things, has one job unlocked (and also one 'main' class) in Scholar, one class he's a moderately talented apprentice in (Conjurer), one class he's now out of practice with after having grown up with it (Marauder), and one class that taught him a lot...But that he isn't skilled in at all (Thaumaturge).

I THINK that's an example of someone who seems right when it comes to a twenty-five year old.

For a teenager, I's suspect maybe one class and maybe one trade seem about right.

RE: Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Eva - 08-04-2014

It seems like this thread has run a couple different avenues, and I think the discussions so far have been pretty interesting.  Here's my contribution:

To the OP I'll just echo what others have said, and that is basically just to RP what you want and what you're comfortable with.  To me it doesn't seem extreme.  My own character doesn't stick like glue to the actual game lore surrounding the classes/jobs, and her father was a seasoned dragoon who had pretty ill regard for the Wood Wailers and "lancers" of Gridania.  There are enough RPers about that you will find a group comfortable with your level of adherence or deviation to/from the specific lore.  And your explanation about being a non-tribal miqo'te who was adopted seems perfectly acceptable to me.  I know of other miqo'te who have done similar things, or who have just walked away from that lifestyle.  Eorzea is quite the melting pot, and I don't think anyone really needs to feel pigeonholed by racial/clan lore tidbits.  Regarding the jobs/classes, I see no reason why someone can be a bard and not an archer, or vice versa.  Strict adherers to the lore might disagree, but there are various types of musical instruments available and it seems to me that archery skills and an ability to sing or play an instrument are entirely independent of one another for all intents and purposes.

I'm going to refrain from commenting much with regard to the White Mage storyline.  As a character who is a white mage in all but name (if we have to pin down one of the specific given jobs), it seems too slippery a slope what with the given lore and I generally dance around certain aspects of Eva's background with healing magic.  It doesn't help that we had different spells and different story quests in 1.0 and with ARR they pulled the floor out from beneath [many of] us.

Pertaining to multiple disciplines, I see nothing wrong with this.  I also rather like it when folks come up with creative alternatives to the jobs/classes listed for the sake of RP.  I've known characters who considered themselves engineers or architects, or various other jobs apart from the handful we're given.  Not to say there's anything wrong with a character who does fit one of these molds.  Someone needs to do it.  But multiple disciplines seems all right to me.  And even more "grounded in reality" might be how these progress and change over time.  Eva began as a weaver, learning slowly over a long span of time until she was something of a master at the craft.  This since became more of a hobby as Dalamud grew closer and she realized she might be called upon to defend people.  Much newer to her is practice with pikemanship.  From birth she also possessed an innate talent at healing which she let go at a young age (for reasons) and only recently picked back up again.  So she volunteers sometimes as a nurse.  She's not a conjurer though, and only knows a little of conjury.  In fact it may be fair to say she's more like Sylphie from the CJR storyline - carrying with it similar disadvantages and limitations.  So she has experience, and perhaps even some level of expertise with three separate disciplines (and she's dabbled a bit with others as well), but I wouldn't think it's fair to say she excels at any of the game-specific jobs except for maybe weaving.  Where Eva usually tends to shine more often is as a counselor, or advisor, and as a priestess.  It has been an unusual progression for sure.

But it seems to me that any character who is X job and sometimes Y job with Z craft skills is kind of two-dimensional to me, and somewhat boilerplate.  I like characters who are maybe good or excel at one or two areas, and falter or are lousy at something else, but maybe that inexperience or failure in turn provides determination, or a passion for something like that turns them away from their area of expertise so that they can improve at another area they're more passionate about.  Stuff like that, to me, is real.  It's human, and it feels like more honest RP when I can see a character not just as the chosen job, but as a compilation of thoughts and feelings and motivations and flaws.


TL;DR:  Play how you want and just make sure you enjoy it!

RE: Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Zyrusticae - 08-04-2014

(08-04-2014, 06:13 AM)Roswyn Wrote: I think it's important to keep in mind as well that your PC will likely never be a "Warrior of Light"
There is absolutely nothing unreasonable about being a Warrior of Light. It is canon that there are many Warriors of Light and the developers explicitly intended for all player characters to be THE Warriors of Light to begin with. The player characters are a small percentage of the overall population, numbering in the thousands where ordinary citizens number in the millions (or tens of millions).

They even drive this point home with the first cutscene where you meet Hydaelyn and you see a whole bunch of other souls flying around with you, which represents other player characters going through the exact same thing.
(08-04-2014, 06:13 AM)Roswyn Wrote: or the "Leader of the Scions" or the the sole kicker of Garlean butt God-Character in the questlines.
You never actually lead the Scions, you're just the done-getter go-doer who happens to be really good at their job. That being said, yes, this one is a lot harder to justify in RP since the story doesn't really imply that you are a whole group of people (which it really should, to jive better with the whole MMORPG thing) instead of just one guy or gal.

When it comes down to it, the problem is really in that the proportion of NPCs you actually meet and interact with will be far, far lower than the number of PCs you meet and interact with simply by nature of this being an MMORPG. If NPCs were actually sentient and did their own thing and outnumbered PCs 10:1 it would seem a lot less outlandish that so many PCs are "special snowflakes" in some way.

RE: Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Sophia_Grave - 08-04-2014

I feel like someone should bring up game mechanics because, to the people in charge, game > lore every time. Its for this reason (I feel) that the game goes to great lengths to make the player feel unique and super special, and the lore is specifically adapted to that.

This is why I feel like its 100% okay to bend the lore, but just make it meaningful. If you adamantly want to be a dragoon instead of a lancer, actually be a dragoon. Make fighting dragons a big part of your life or history. Have some Ishgardian backstory. I would never say "no, you aren't allowed to do that," but I can't help but scratch my head when the only real reason to be a dragoon is the dragoon-specific lore, which bizarrely gets ignored half the time.

The fact that players RP as White Mages even though the lore doesn't explicitly support their existence doesn't bother me. Its the fact that people just do so for no reason other than the title or special powers.

RE: Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Lillith Cale - 08-04-2014

This thread has brought about some fantastic discussion, and I am truely glad that I poste dit to begin with!

It seems like, for the most part, people agree that there are quite a few ways to play various different classes and not break lore, that's very heatening to know and it's definately got me looking forward to roleplaying with everyone here all the more!

RE: Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Aduu Avagnar - 08-04-2014

(08-04-2014, 01:05 PM)Apl_Juice Wrote: I feel like someone should bring up game mechanics because, to the people in charge, game > lore every time. Its for this reason (I feel) that the game goes to great lengths to make the player feel unique and super special, and the lore is specifically adapted to that.

This is why I feel like its 100% okay to bend the lore, but just make it meaningful. If you adamantly want to be a dragoon instead of a lancer, actually be a dragoon. Make fighting dragons a big part of your life or history. Have some Ishgardian backstory. I would never say "no, you aren't allowed to do that," but I can't help but scratch my head when the only real reason to be a dragoon is the dragoon-specific lore, which bizarrely gets ignored half the time.

The fact that players RP as White Mages even though the lore doesn't explicitly support their existence doesn't bother me. Its the fact that people just do so for no reason other than the title or special powers.
Personally I do not believe that game > lore, Because of the constraints of class balance that have to be inherent in any game system. In the opening video of 2.0 for instance, there is a Black Mage who blows up, in one spell, some Magitek Armour. Mechanically, it is not possible, even with the best gear currently attainable to do this.

RE: Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Aduu Avagnar - 08-04-2014

(08-04-2014, 05:51 AM)K Wrote: Allow me to clarify my interpretation of white mage arts being revived:

When the Sixth Umbral catastrophe happened, select few were charged with being keepers of the White and Black magic arts. With White Magic, the Padjal were chosen to be its keepers. Teaching it amongst their race, isn't reviving the art, it is merely continuing to keep the art safe as keepers for the day it is deemed safe to revive the art in Eorzea.

In order to revive an art, the keepers of the art would have to take students outside their little circle. Their little circle in this case, is their race. From what I can tell the Padjal are very very few in numbers, and I'm almost willing to bet every one of them are white mages. And I also suspect they are longer lived than the other races of Eorzea.

So as I said, teaching amongst themselves, is nothing more than continuing their roles as keepers of an art. Basically keeping it safe until the day the races of Eorzea are deemed mature enough, and trustworthy enough to not abuse it. With the Garleans showing up, adventurers took center stage, showing skill, and wisdom to help protect Eorzea survive the onslaught.

1.x lore is still canon today. It may had been a pretty crappy game, but SE clearly did not throw it out. They merely brought 1.x to a close, then expanded the lore and increased the timeline by 5 years for 2.0. And in 2.0's story you play the first of many adventurers who get trained to be a white mage to combat both the Garlean threat and also the threat of the primals.

That's why in the Lost City of Amdapor opening questline, if you talk to Raya-O-Senna as a white mage, she doesn't address you as her former student, but as just another white mage. Because 1.x white mages weren't her students. It suggests that as of 2.2 when The Lost City of Amdapor dungeon came out, that adventurer white mages have become more popular. So 2.0, the art was starting its revival, so in 2.2, the art can be considered revived.

That's my interpretation. It's not stretching lore, it's actually going by lore. In my own character's case, I went a slightly different route, and found a white crystal from the sixth umbral era, to learn to become a white mage. That doesn't stretch lore either, because white magic was quite common in that era. The Padjal though guided her after finding the crystal, so she could be a white mage, which falls in line with the padjal reviving the art.
Except as has previously been said, the reason she addresses you by Class/Job is because of a coding reason, she says the same message, with the appropriate class, for /everyone/. 

Out of all of the job stones (or white crystal, as you call it) the White Mage one is gifted to the player by the spirit of a former White Mage, therefore I doubt it would be possible to simply find one lying around. There is still the fact that, if you were one of many being chosen, A-Ruhn-Senna, would not be as vehemently against you being trained in the arts, it is only /after/ you have proved yourself that he even accepts you as being worthy of it.

RE: Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Roswyn - 08-04-2014

(08-04-2014, 01:05 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(08-04-2014, 06:13 AM)Roswyn Wrote: I think it's important to keep in mind as well that your PC will likely never be a "Warrior of Light"
There is absolutely nothing unreasonable about being a Warrior of Light. It is canon that there are many Warriors of Light and the developers explicitly intended for all player characters to be THE Warriors of Light to begin with. The player characters are a small percentage of the overall population, numbering in the thousands where ordinary citizens number in the millions (or tens of millions).

They even drive this point home with the first cutscene where you meet Hydaelyn and you see a whole bunch of other souls flying around with you, which represents other player characters going through the exact same thing.
(08-04-2014, 06:13 AM)Roswyn Wrote: or the "Leader of the Scions" or the the sole kicker of Garlean butt God-Character in the questlines.
You never actually lead the Scions, you're just the done-getter go-doer who happens to be really good at their job. That being said, yes, this one is a lot harder to justify in RP since the story doesn't really imply that you are a whole group of people (which it really should, to jive better with the whole MMORPG thing) instead of just one guy or gal.

When it comes down to it, the problem is really in that the proportion of NPCs you actually meet and interact with will be far, far lower than the number of PCs you meet and interact with simply by nature of this being an MMORPG. If NPCs were actually sentient and did their own thing and outnumbered PCs 10:1 it would seem a lot less outlandish that so many PCs are "special snowflakes" in some way.

The Warriors of Light reference was referring to the 5 main npc's that K'ailia posted a video of her post. She talked about how one of them was a white mage/black mage and how this makes it canon which is very debatable imo. I thought it was obvious I was expanding upon her reference.


Also, yes, I'm aware of Minfilia's existence. Thumbsup

RE: Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Aduu Avagnar - 08-04-2014

(08-04-2014, 06:06 PM)Roswyn Wrote:
(08-04-2014, 01:05 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote:
(08-04-2014, 06:13 AM)Roswyn Wrote: I think it's important to keep in mind as well that your PC will likely never be a "Warrior of Light"
There is absolutely nothing unreasonable about being a Warrior of Light. It is canon that there are many Warriors of Light and the developers explicitly intended for all player characters to be THE Warriors of Light to begin with. The player characters are a small percentage of the overall population, numbering in the thousands where ordinary citizens number in the millions (or tens of millions).

They even drive this point home with the first cutscene where you meet Hydaelyn and you see a whole bunch of other souls flying around with you, which represents other player characters going through the exact same thing.
(08-04-2014, 06:13 AM)Roswyn Wrote: or the "Leader of the Scions" or the the sole kicker of Garlean butt God-Character in the questlines.
You never actually lead the Scions, you're just the done-getter go-doer who happens to be really good at their job. That being said, yes, this one is a lot harder to justify in RP since the story doesn't really imply that you are a whole group of people (which it really should, to jive better with the whole MMORPG thing) instead of just one guy or gal.

When it comes down to it, the problem is really in that the proportion of NPCs you actually meet and interact with will be far, far lower than the number of PCs you meet and interact with simply by nature of this being an MMORPG. If NPCs were actually sentient and did their own thing and outnumbered PCs 10:1 it would seem a lot less outlandish that so many PCs are "special snowflakes" in some way.

The Warriors of Light reference was referring to the 5 main npc's that K'ailia posted a video of her post. She talked about how one of them was a white mage/black mage and how this makes it canon which is very debatable imo. I thought it was obvious I was expanding upon her reference.


Also, yes, I'm aware of Minfilia's existence. Thumbsup
Actually, the Warriors of Light are any 1.0 character:

Excerpt from Final Fantasy Wikia

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Unless I misunderstood, and you were simply pointing out that they were simply refering to those specific adventurers as Warriors of Light.

RE: Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Roswyn - 08-04-2014

(08-04-2014, 06:50 PM)Nako Wrote: [quote pid=100733 dateline=1407190013]
Actually, the Warriors of Light are any 1.0 character:


Excerpt from Final Fantasy Wikia

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Unless I misunderstood, and you were simply pointing out that they were simply refering to those specific adventurers as Warriors of Light.

As previously stated, It really was a general reference to K'ailia's statement. Laugh

K'ailia posted the trailer for the game as support for saying PC's could be whm's blm's shown here:

(08-03-2014, 11:16 PM)K Wrote: So this leaves the lore well open for interpretation, that perhaps your character is not the only adventurer who has become a white mage. In fact, lets also keep in mind the opening cinematic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h542YbZuwkQ

2:04 - White mage is healing the warrior
7:18 - white mage appears with the group

Which means, the white mages were utilized before Bahamut actually appeared. So it's not improbable that someone could find a soul of the white mage from ages past, to become a white mage. It still abides by the lore, the game still supports there being non-padjal white mages in Eorzea.

When the term "Warrior of Light" was used it was in reference to these 5 NPC's who had been brought up previously in the discussion about a page back.

In my mind, these 5 folk in the cinematic are largely "mythical" and trying to add them or their abilities into the canon kinda throws it all into upheaval and put's a lot of the quest text in question, especially with white mages. Pretty much everything Lia said. Hence my comment.

RE: Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Kailia - 08-04-2014

(08-04-2014, 08:29 PM)Roswyn Wrote: In my mind, these 5 folk in the cinematic are largely "mythical" and trying to add them or their abilities into the canon kinda throws it all into upheaval and put's a lot of the quest text in question, especially with white mages. Pretty much everything Lia said. Hence my comment.

To say that 1.x people are considered mythical, would be wrong though. The 5 people seen in the cinematic, are supposed to be representations of 1.x players who have returned to the world.

1.x lore is still canon. SE when they remade the game, increased the timeline by 5 years and began a new era as I said. And in regards to white mages, I believe there are very very few padjal, but the ones that do exist, are by default, white mages. They are the keepers of the art. Teaching it amongst themselves, doesn't make them reviving it. It makes them continuing to be keepers.

Reviving white magic into Eorzea, means to me, that they are teaching non-padjal, aka, the adventurers of Eorzea, to be white mages. Also, when it comes to white mage crystals, the one in the story was only 1 example of a soul of a white mage. Considering the white mages and black mages were quite common in the Sixth Umbral Era, and most jobs crystals/runes come from eras past, it wouldn't be unheard of for ruins from them eras to have such crystals/runes within.

The fact is, the past history before 1.x, is still being worked out by SE, which is why many eras haven't even got any detailed lore. I'm sure as the game grows, the lore will grow, expand, and be made more clear over time.

But in the meantime, I see no issues with folks RPing the classes or the jobs however they want. As long as there is some lore to back up character backgrounds, like a conjurer that also communes with the other 3 elements of thaumaturgy for example, it is quite possible to RP a conjurer or white mage, capable of using all six elements.

So where do we draw the line? Well for me, I avoid marry suing my char. So since she is ICly a white mage, who is capable of using all six elements, she will never be a thaumaturge or black mage IC. She has only the most basic understanding of arcanima, so she could summon carbuncle. As for scholar, I've made that an OOC class, same with summoner.

Disciples of war? Well she has only the most basic understanding of martial arts, which falls under pugilist. And archery? From when she was in the tribe, she's a terrible shot though. Beyond that, any class outside of white mage, pretty much is an OOC one for me.

The only exception, will probably be from the upcomming 2.4 class/job, as the person who plays my characters fiance, has vowed to teach her a different way of fighting with daggers. But even then, ninja would most definitely be an OOC title.

Overall, I don't feel anyone should feel restricted on what class/job they can RP. If the person is a decent rper, friendly, and not a god moder or marry sue, then don't let their choice of IC job, keep you from rping with them. Even if your interpretation of lore suggests they can't, everyone definitely has their own interpretation of lore.

And one thing I can say for certain, this game has far far better lore than World of Warcraft Smile

RE: Playing a Job and Race: Why does it bring about ire? - Roswyn - 08-04-2014

I broke my reply and I'm too lazy to fix and it's not cached.

TL;DR: Ppl taking 1 word form paragraphs and running with it and arguing semantics.

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