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+--- Thread: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts (/showthread.php?tid=9444)
RE: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts - Yssen - 12-29-2014
(12-29-2014, 03:15 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote:(12-29-2014, 01:26 PM)Eva Wrote: we're all just typical denizens of Eorzea.
(12-29-2014, 02:44 PM)Aya Wrote: I reserve my character's right to look at the rider askance!! ^_^
I'm not necessarily targeting this response at either of you, this is more of a general statement about MMO communities as a whole (not just FFXIV), but I never understood this mentality. Why is it that most view the nail that sticks out deserves the hammer? I've seen this sort of mindset again and again and again over the years playing in games like WoW or TERA or even my brief stay in ArcheAge.
The community (or individuals in said community) tend to make these little "edicts" about what is acceptable, and whether it's intentional or not it always creates this sort of air of judgement around those communities as if to say "if you do this/don't do this then you're not worth my RP."
For example, in 1.0 the lore was that having the Echo was relatively common amongst Adventurers to some degree, at least common enough that an entire organization was formed around it (The Path of the Twelve), however in 2.0 the Path is gone and now we have the Scions, and other than Minfilia you are the only other person that seems to have the Echo anymore. Because of this anyone who RPs having the Echo is usually met with that askance look Aya mentioned, because of some edict that was created on the RPC that said having the Echo was somewhat mary sue. Likewise, having in your history that you have bested a Primal despite the fact that the quests and lore imply they are summoned with enough frequency to require sending out Adventurer's weekly to dispatch them is also viewed with that same level of snubbing by many.
In short what I'm getting at I guess is who cares what someone is running around on in the world (ICly or OOCly) so long as they don't completely break lore by doing it (such as claiming they are riding THE Sleipnir) and come up with a reasonable explanation for it (such as having a normal horse with Sleipnir-like barding)?
Just a side note. The Scions are the evolution of the Path of the Twelve. The Echo is still relatively widespread. In fact, I believe you cannot have time skipped from Carteneau without having it. Also, there are still several NPC around that also have it beside Minfilia.Â
Further note. Absolute agreement on the point of air of judgement. I dislike seeing this, and thank ya for pointing it out so well. ^ ^
You may return to normal discussion of what is or is not a lore-breaking mount. Yar.
RE: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts - Ashren Dotharl - 12-29-2014
(12-29-2014, 03:24 PM)Yssen Wrote: Just a side note. The Scions are the evolution of the Path of the Twelve. The Echo is still relatively widespread. In fact, I believe you cannot have time skipped from Carteneau without having it. Also, there are still several NPC around that also have it beside Minfilia.Â
I'll have to go back and look but I can't really remember anyone in 2.0 who is demonstrated has having the Echo besides the PC and Minfilia, though I may just be drawing a blank since it's 1:30pm here and I've been up since 6pm yesterday. In either case, in 1.0 the Path of the Twelve was shown in a way that made it seem like there were quite a few, and you were just one of many, especially with the inclusion of the Path Companion.
In 2.0 the focus is primarily on the Archons, Minfilia, and you with little acknowledgement that there are supposed to be others out there who have your gifts, and the fact that the Scions are now primarily focused on fighting Primals and Ascians, and no longer concerned with the protection and nurturing of people with the Echo it makes it feel even more like they are trying to make the PC into a special snowflake for having it.
There's also the fact that Warrior of Light originally meant "Survivor of Carteneau" essentially, and then somehow got turned into a catchall term used for the PC specifically in the storyline, whether they fought in Carteneau or not, which sort of confuses the situation if you call yourself that, or claim to be one because you were one of the people the term was originally coined for.
RE: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts - Parvacake - 12-29-2014
Most people kind of said it for me already, but I think as long as it can be explained it should be alright
Lili has her chocobo and out in Coerthas in a sanctuary is the behemoth her husband found as a cub when he was 'alive'. Since the mount notes say a woman originally found a collection of them as young and raised them as mounts I figured it wouldnt be too far out there for someone else to do the same.
RE: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts - C'kayah Polaali - 12-29-2014
(12-29-2014, 03:15 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote:(12-29-2014, 02:44 PM)Aya Wrote: I reserve my character's right to look at the rider askance!! ^_^
I'm not necessarily targeting this response at either of you, this is more of a general statement about MMO communities as a whole (not just FFXIV), but I never understood this mentality. Why is it that most view the nail that sticks out deserves the hammer? I've seen this sort of mindset again and again and again over the years playing in games like WoW or TERA or even my brief stay in ArcheAge.
The community (or individuals in said community) tend to make these little "edicts" about what is acceptable, and whether it's intentional or not it always creates this sort of air of judgement around those communities as if to say "if you do this/don't do this then you're not worth my RP."
I don't think that's what Aya's saying at all. The lore is filled with people riding around en masse on chocobos, so someone riding "a" Sleipnir is as new and surprising lore-wise as a cowboy riding his trusty elephant into Dodge City. If that's not worthy of being looked at askance, I don't know what is!
RE: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts - Eva - 12-29-2014
(12-29-2014, 03:15 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: I'm not necessarily targeting this response at either of you, this is more of a general statement about MMO communities as a whole (not just FFXIV), but I never understood this mentality. Why is it that most view the nail that sticks out deserves the hammer? I've seen this sort of mindset again and again and again over the years playing in games like WoW or TERA or even my brief stay in ArcheAge.
The community (or individuals in said community) tend to make these little "edicts" about what is acceptable, and whether it's intentional or not it always creates this sort of air of judgement around those communities as if to say "if you do this/don't do this then you're not worth my RP."
Not wanting to derail this thread, but do want to address this point. Â As I mentioned in my earlier post I knew of one instance where I felt the RP of what many would consider an unusual mount was handled well, and delicately. Â I'm not in the business of hammering down nails that are sticking out, but I will remark that one or two nails sticking out isn't necessarily a problem. Â It's when it's a constant barrage of such mounts that it gets harder and harder for me to just look the other way, as I try to do. Â I have long felt that just because some thing exists in the game in some capacity doesn't mean it fits into everyday life, and I think we're all entitled our beliefs on the matter. Â This is of course at the very core of why there are many different companies and linkpearls, to cater to all different styles and preferences.
As a footnote to the above, I generally do not withold/deny RP to people for something as simple as this, nor do I make any sort of edicts or such. But from my own perspective, in excess the abundance of these 'abnormal things' (not just mounts) does at some level impede my enjoyment of the world and sense of immersion.  Generally speaking, if someone is adamant about riding a lion, magitek armor, or whatever else, I think that's great!  I also think, from my own character's perspective, it may be a bit extreme.  Even the RPer I referenced earlier with her ride-on goobbue got some sidelong glances early on. I'm not going to write anyone off for it, nor am I in the habit of governing how others should RP in whatever manner suits them, but if engaged in RP I'm not going to pretend like something my character would view as an aberration is something commonplace. Perhaps some interesting conversation or RP might arise from such a conversation.
I probably will not contribute much further to this thread. Â My views are pretty widely known and not always very popular, but I am entitled them and just wanted to voice my opinion on this topic, as it does mirror a few others I have seen written here.
RE: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts - Kismet - 12-29-2014
(12-29-2014, 03:24 PM)Yssen Wrote: In fact, I believe you cannot have time skipped from Carteneau without having it.
I was under the impression that not all Warriors of Light had the Echo...? I would appreciate it greatly if someone could clarify that.
RE: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts - Warren Castille - 12-29-2014
Re: The Echo
If I'm remembering correctly everyone in the Path of the Twelve had the Echo, but the trick was that "The Echo" meant a lot of different things. Everyone was privy to visions, maybe, and everyone was able to speak beast tongue, maybe, but it didn't manifest in the same way in every person. It's plenty possible to have the Echo and the effect to simply be that you never get sick; We're so unclear about what "Echo" constitutes it's silly to weigh in on one side or the other.
It's also true that, in a shared community like Balmung, having every single functional roleplayer being The Chosen One makes for a very... Well, the environment quickly becomes the royal dick-waving contest amongst power gamers. Maybe. I think people tend to gravitate away from super powers because they make more trouble than they're worth.
RE: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts - Aya - 12-29-2014
(12-29-2014, 03:15 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote:You'd better not be! If anyone thinks that a character shouldn't look askance at something incredibly rare (and quite likely dangerous!) they're the ones being quite silly. I mean you're quite literally riding a monster into town. What normal person wouldn't look askance at that? (if they were not busy running in fear, which is another potential Aya response!)(12-29-2014, 01:26 PM)Eva Wrote: we're all just typical denizens of Eorzea.
(12-29-2014, 02:44 PM)Aya Wrote: I reserve my character's right to look at the rider askance!! ^_^
I'm not necessarily targeting this response at either of you
There's no edict, judgement, or anything in my statement. Merely a point about how a character whose rather common in demeanor (as opposed to heroic) would likely view such a thing
RE: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts - Zyrusticae - 12-29-2014
But merely having the Echo is not necessarily the same thing as being a "Chosen One". It's just one power (or collection of powers) granted by Hydaelyn to her many blessed chosen, the same way the Amal'jaa are granted powers over flame by Ifrit, Sahuagin given power over water by Leviathan, Kobolds given power over earth by Titan, Sylphs given power over lightning by Ramuh, and Lady Iceheart given power over ice by incarnating as Shiva.
Just as there are a LOT of Tempered, Drowned, Touched, and whatever Titan does is called, there are a lot of Blessed out there that may not even necessarily be aware of their condition or status but nonetheless help push Hydaelyn's agenda in various subtle fashions. (Key word: subtle!)
Unlike the obvious Chosen One privilege, I think there's a lot of room to play around with groups of people with the Echo. It's not nearly as problematic as a bunch of WHMs spamming Holy everywhere, or BLMs spamming Flare with reckless abandon.
RE: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts - Gegenji - 12-29-2014
(12-29-2014, 04:21 PM)Aya Wrote: You'd better not be! If anyone thinks that a character shouldn't look askance at something incredibly rare (and quite likely dangerous!) they're the ones being quite silly.  I mean you're quite literally riding a monster into town.  What normal person wouldn't look askance at that? (if they were not busy running in fear, which is another potential Aya response!)
Chachan gets odd looks enough for walking around with what may or may not be a baby behemoth!
And getting odd looks is an amusing way to start RPs and possibly relationships. Chachan and Koporo's kinda-sorta grump-rivalry started over the latter's shock and alarm at Gran puttering around. I'm sure the same could be done with exotic mounts if you have the proper story behind it.
Something beyond "Take a look at my horse, my horse is amazing" of course. ... Though that song is obnoxiously catchy. Dangit, Weebl.
(12-29-2014, 04:27 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Just as there are a LOT of Tempered, Drowned, Touched, and whatever Titan does is called
If it isn't "Rocked," I'm going to be very disappointed.
"You've been Rocked by Titan!"
RE: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts - K'nahli - 12-29-2014
(12-28-2014, 10:10 PM)Seriphyn Wrote:
Here, look, a random Internet picture validated my opunion. I must be right, then.
![[Image: LQGwx.png]](http://i.imgur.com/LQGwx.png)
Hahahaha, that's a very interesting perspective.
(12-29-2014, 04:06 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: I think people tend to gravitate away from super powers because they make more trouble than they're worth.
I think this sums it up quite well. Also, Eva's well-written response shares exactly the same perception that I do of the matter. I won't ever try to dissuade people from their choices unless they're in my own community and I think something really doesn't fit(and only then, if I feel I am close enough to them to safely make such a remark) but it's their lack of place in Eorzea that impacts my own enjoyment.
Riding a Behemoth or Reaper around the world as though it were natural just doesn't make sense in my eyes. Where is it supposed to stay? What are onlookers supposed to make of it? At the very, very least it would surely terrify people and that would get one into trouble not with the mere authorities, but the officials of an actual Grand Company or two.
In Lili's example where the Behemoth is restricted to Coerthas and therefore(I'm assuming) only used for traversing the difficult and harsh terrain out there, then it seems more acceptable. There's a lot of unoccupied territory out there so there shouldn't be a great deal of panic even if it happens long numerous civilians/soldiers.
It's not about imposing one's views on anyone else. It's simply a differing opinion on what seems right and lore-friendly. For 90%+ of those kinds of item descriptions, I don't personally think you're honestly supposed to take it seriously. It's just a fluff-born plug to give non-RP'ers any explanation for why the mount even exists.
For example(MSQ 2.0 spoiler):
Emphasis on personal opinion!
RE: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts - Kage - 12-29-2014
Re: Echo I am pretty sure that the lore discussion touched base on this in Vegas a tiny bit but I don't remember completely.
I love you Sounsyy.
http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=8695&pid=117271#pid117271
Scions have Echo?
-NO! they do not. Cannot elaborate. Most scions have echo, because they are part of Path of the Twelve. Whereas Circle of Knowing are archons from sharlayan.
Circle of Knowing actually Archons?
-Circle of Knowing ARE Archons! Archons goes back multiple eras. Near end of astral era, people that remembered the past will come to eorzea and inform them that Umbral eras are coming. Those prepared people will survive. This happens repeatedly every astral era closing. Different Archons every time. Circle of Knowing BECAME archons. Tattoos on their neck will be explained 2.4
((I already forgot what the tattoos mean. oops. Also iirc, Circle of Knowing + Path = What we have now?))
RE: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts - Ashren Dotharl - 12-30-2014
(12-29-2014, 04:31 PM)Kage Wrote: Re: Echo I am pretty sure that the lore discussion touched base on this in Vegas a tiny bit but I don't remember completely.I don't recall them EVER explaining what the tattoo meant in 2.4, so maybe it got pushed to 2.5? I always just assumed it meant they were an Archon and nothing more, I mean it was already established that the Circle of Knowing were all Archons in 1.0. Also yes, the Scions of the Seventh Dawn are the combined forces of the Circle of Knowing and the Path of the Twelve. The big difference though was that in the past (1.0) the Circle of Knowing had an agenda to defeat the Primals, and the Path of the Twelve had an agenda to protect and cultivate adventurers with the Echo. Now that they have become the Scions of the Seventh Dawn, the Circle of Knowing's agenda has pretty much taken over completely, and you no longer get the feeling that there are others like you in their ranks but that you are the Chosen One.
I love you Sounsyy.
http://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/showthread.php?tid=8695&pid=117271#pid117271
Scions have Echo?
-NO! they do not. Cannot elaborate. Most scions have echo, because they are part of Path of the Twelve. Whereas Circle of Knowing are archons from sharlayan.
Circle of Knowing actually Archons?
-Circle of Knowing ARE Archons! Archons goes back multiple eras. Near end of astral era, people that remembered the past will come to eorzea and inform them that Umbral eras are coming. Those prepared people will survive. This happens repeatedly every astral era closing. Different Archons every time. Circle of Knowing BECAME archons. Tattoos on their neck will be explained 2.4
((I already forgot what the tattoos mean. oops. Also iirc, Circle of Knowing + Path = What we have now?))
Back on topic however, the fact of the matter with special mounts is that RPers live in individual little bubbles where all of their story goes on for them, and only occasionally do their bubbles collide with other peoples bubbles. Just because one guy is riding around on a Behemoth doesn't necessarily mean he is aware there are 50 other people riding around on Behemoth's as well, and just because you've met all 50 other people doing it doesn't mean you should treat him any worse than the first one you met.
Just on Balmung alone there are HUNDREDS of RPers, we are not a small tight knit community where everyone knows what everyone else is doing, there is bound to be overlap on things that are supposed to be rare, making them not nearly as rare as they should be, but that's simply the nature of the beast.
RE: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts - Sounsyy - 12-30-2014
(12-30-2014, 12:29 AM)Ashren Snow Wrote:(12-29-2014, 04:31 PM)Kage Wrote: ((I already forgot what the tattoos mean. oops. Also iirc, Circle of Knowing + Path = What we have now?))I don't recall them EVER explaining what the tattoo meant in 2.4, so maybe it got pushed to 2.5?
The meaning behind the tattoo was very briefly explained in the 2.4 quest "A Simple Plan" with the arrival of Moenbryda. It wasn't said in a cutscene though if I remember correctly, but if you talked to Yda or Y'shtola while they're standing around Minfilia's desk they'd tell you. But anyways, the gist is that the tattoo signifies the wearer has achieved the highest learning on a specific subject. Kinda like earning your Doctorate IRL. Moenbryda is a specialist in aetherial manipulation and aetherytes, for example.
(12-29-2014, 03:34 PM)Ashren Snow Wrote: In 2.0 the focus is primarily on the Archons, Minfilia, and you with little acknowledgement that there are supposed to be others out there who have your gifts, and the fact that the Scions are now primarily focused on fighting Primals and Ascians, and no longer concerned with the protection and nurturing of people with the Echo it makes it feel even more like they are trying to make the PC into a special snowflake for having it.
As for the whole Echo thing...
In 1.0, the Path of the Twelve (as has been said already) was an organization composed entirely of people who possessed the Echo. In 2.0, the Path of the Twelve combined with the Circle of Knowing (Archons) to form the Scions of the Seventh Dawn.
My theory on why the Scions of the Seventh Dawn are less "Echo-focused" as you say, is because shortly after you join the Scions of the Seventh Dawn in the MSQ, the Garleans invade and kill everyone, leaving only the former Archons alive and a few scant members of the Path of the Twelve. So seeing as how really the only survivors of the MSQ "All Good Things" were Circle of Knowing members it would make sense that the Scions' goals during the majority of the MSQ are more akin to 1.0's Circle of Knowing goals.
RE: "Lore-Wrecking" Mounts - FreelanceWizard - 12-30-2014
So... as those who've read the "What does your character ride?" prompt over in Character Development know, L'yhta often rides an old, patched up, heavily modified Reaper around. That's something that should raise some eyebrows, especially in places where adventurers aren't a significant part of the population (as they would be in Revenant's Toll). Despite the fact that it's painted a garish metallic gold and the rider is most definitely not wearing Garlean colors or gear, I expect and welcome people looking weirdly at it, because it is weird.
I generally view it as something that NPCs view as strange, a bit scary, and somewhat off-putting, and that L'yhta is generally fairly oblivious to that. I don't see it as something that would get her attacked because it would take a lot of errors to mistake it or its rider for a Garlean, but I'm sure it results in some hassles for her entering villages, and she typically has to hide it a bit away and walk when traveling -- or, if she's really concerned about it, she'll just take her chocobo.In the general sense, I don't really mind what people ride so long as they have a narrative justification for it. There's lots of stories for how one could acquire a trained coeurl, run into a baby behemoth, overfeed a chocobo, etc. Rarity doesn't bother me because we're already playing rare beings (successful adventurers, even excluding the rarity of the Echo). In much the same way that the popularity of miqo'te (by lore, rare) isn't thrown because player characters make up a tiny percentage of the Eorzean population, "special" mounts retain their rarity because their riders are a tiny percentage, too.
Though, honestly, that means strange mounts should probably get even more raised eyebrows than they do.
However, we also have to remember, IMO, that Eorzea is weird, wild, and magical place, where gods are summoned, intelligent machines wield laser cannons, ancient clones guide people into battles with 30 foot tall genetically engineered beings from thousands of years ago, and portals open up between dimensions. Weird is the norm in many ways, I think.