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+--- Thread: Lore Reasons:White Mage? (/showthread.php?tid=10545)
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Warren Castille - 03-15-2015
(03-15-2015, 09:42 PM)Intaki Wrote:(03-15-2015, 09:38 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: And when the Word of God tells you that you do in fact have to go on a wheat free diet, most people tend to listen.So we're just going to ignore the fact that alternative means (to say nothing to the already plausible natural means) of learning White magic have been 100% confirmed as existing by the Devs?
We don't know what that other means is, but we're also referencing backstory usually dating pre-Dalamud, when the only way to become a WHM was to be a Padjal. It's not "there has always been another way" to our current knowledge, and people are allowed to play in that grey area. It's not unreasonable for everyone else to err on the side of caution, though. Currently, as of MSQ and the lore given to us, there is the one storyline WHM and whatever people trying to reach Succor through whatever other means. Writing into your backstory that you were best friends with the Padjal and learned Succor before Carteneau from a wayward Sylph is going to raise everyone's eyebrows.
Edit to try and be more concise: There is going to be another way to access Succor, but we don't believe it currently exists, nor do we know how it will be accessed.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Sounsyy - 03-15-2015
(03-15-2015, 09:02 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote:Quote:Has there been a revival of white magic or is your PC the only person learning white magic outside of their school? A.) If everyone was the WoL, no one gets to have a sense of being the hero. “YOU.†There are other ways to get white magic. Through deviant means and might show up in the future.
Quoted from the Fanfest lore panel.
I for one am very eager for this storyline involving alternative Succor methods to come out already. If for no other reason than to have an alternate IC excuse to help players become the White Mages they so desperately want to be. As strict as the lore is, I've spent a good deal of time trying to find ways within the boundaries of lore to become a White Mage that requires the most minimal of bending. And just about anyone can vouch for that.
The main problem with this quote from Fernehalwes and much of the lore surrounding the White Mage job in general, is that, yes in the future there may be more IC ways of becoming White Mages, however, most of the people who are RPing them... have been ICly White Mages for a while. And it's a timeline that doesn't quite add up.
If we count the 1.0 storyline Derplander's Lalafell companion as the "first" non-Padjal White Mage since the times of Amdapor 1,600 years ago, granted White Magic by Oha-Sok Herself, this still marks a pretty solid 5 year line in which it's canonically stated by Seedseer and Elemental that no other man has been granted this blessed privilege. So while there may be new ways, deviant, nefarious, or otherwise to obtain this gift, it's gotta be a fairly recent thing.
Especially if you're taking the finding an Amdapor Soulstone route, as Amdapor was inside of a gigantic Hedge Tree until a chunk of Dalamud went hurtling through the tree and opened it up for the world to see. (Can go to Tranquil and see it.) Which pretty much leaves you with the "The Elementals gave me Succor because, like Derplander's Lalafell, I am judged pure of spirit and incorruptible in the face of evil." Which, to me, is fine. So long as it's recent, it makes sense with the timeline.
But you will see people who are 20 and White Mage, or 40 and White Mage for 20 years and then you have to scratch your head and go "how?" And at that point, because no alternate method for exploring Succor has been introduced yet, this basically leaves us with a bunch of lore that says it's just not possible, which is why so many people get in a huff about this subject. It's one of those things that can be bent, just gotta do it well if you want to stick within lore. If you don't care about the lore, that's fine too, but that's generally where your character is gonna catch a lot of heat.
There's just so much stacked against a non-Padjali WHM right now.
1 - Non-Padjal shouldn't even know what White Magic is, much less that it exists. It's a closely guarded secret known only to like six families in the entire world, and they're all inside the Twelveswood living in the Woods, not even living in Gridania. And it's not something you're born with unless you're Padjal, in which case you belong to a race specifically created by the Elementals to host and protect Succor.
2 - Elementals literally flooded the world and grew up an entire forest (and a giant friggin tree) around Amdapor to keep people out and didn't let anyone into the forest for 1,000 years. Just to keep mankind from discovering Amdapor existed.
3 - One Elemental very slowly decides that the Player Character is good enough to represent all of Mankind, meanwhile, the other Great Ones decide that it's high time to destroy the world again.
4 - You have five years since the Calamity to find a reason to become a White Mage and dedicate yourself to healing the Wood and Eorzea (if you're so inclined to leave the Twelveswood after the Elementals gave you a great gift.) To me, after the Calamity greatly weakened the Elementals and laid waste to the Twelveswood, I can see the Elementals bestowing the knowledge of Succor on worthy few to help aid the limited number of Padjal and Hearers restore the forest. It makes the most sense. Or you can sneak into Amdapor post-Calamity and steal away with a White Mage soulstone and deviantly begin learning its secrets. Either works within lore.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - V'aleera - 03-15-2015
And you're absolutely within your rights to tread cautiously in that area.
What you can not do is state "PC White Mages can't exist within the framework of the lore", because that is plainly false. People are welcome not to play with WHM RPers if they do not care to, but they also need to understand that their position is not one supported by canon.
That's not to say some (or many) WHM RPers don't exist in a very tight grey area with a lot of risk to their concept should further lore be released on the subject. But as of right now their position has merit (if in a very lean and vague sense), which simply can't be said for those who argue the other extreme.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Warren Castille - 03-15-2015
Sounsy Lore Dump Wrote:Lore!
To nitpick: Someone accessing succor is not a White Mage. If/when the alternate access storyline becomes available, it doesn't change the fact that White Mage is a title given to the protectors of the Shroud and Elementals and not the title of people who wield it. All who fight with swords are not Paladins, all who punch are not Monks, all who channel aether are not Black Mages. There's still duty and instruction that don't come with the toolkit.
At best, you'll be a Conjurer who uses Succor.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Flickering Ember - 03-15-2015
(03-15-2015, 09:24 PM)ArmachiA Wrote:(03-15-2015, 09:02 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote:Quote:Has there been a revival of white magic or is your PC the only person learning white magic outside of their school? A.) If everyone was the WoL, no one gets to have a sense of being the hero. “YOU.†There are other ways to get white magic. Through deviant means and might show up in the future.
Quoted from the Fanfest lore panel.
They haven't told us what those are yet, nor if anyone has ever been successful (Which I'm assuming not because they said there's only one WHM). Until they do that's moot because people can just invent a bunch of stuff and be completely wrong.
Just like we know Blue Mage is a FF class but we have no idea if it will ever appear in FFXIV. So some people don't think you should play it at all because you'll get the lore wrong, but people were trying anyway.. only later to learn that the devs said BLU probably won't even be IN THE GAME
Well, I was originally responding to your post that said it wasn't up for interpretation. But I figure there is a lot to be able to interpret. All we were given as descriptions for the playable races were a couple of paragraphs and some naming conventions. RPers are constantly filling in the gaps of the lore. Half of the miqo'te lore on this website is based on educated guesses and speculation. We don't know anything at all about Au Ra but people are still creating them. We know very little about Doma except that is an Asian parallel but people still RP them.Â
If we could only RP exactly what is confirmed to exist in the lore, there wouldn't be a lot to RP. My character is a roegadyn but I don't know anything about their culture or their customs or their physiology.Â
If you cannot rp anything not in the lore then I suppose no one could rp a tribal miqo'te not in the U tribe. I only remember seeing the U tribe. Lore could say that certain tribes died off long ago. Etc. It seems to me it is easy to pick and choose what is okay and not okay. I suppose it has something to do with power or presumed snowflakiness. But is a White Mage really any more powerful than a paladin or a summoner? They're all epic.Â
RPers agree and disagree constantly. Lore is always being debated in rp communities. Everyone has a different viewpoint, different tolerances, different things they like, different interpretations...aren't these threads proof of that?
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Yssen - 03-15-2015
If I may. I think the issue that is causing actual conflict here is the way that people our phrasing their opinions just a tad. Everyone is absolutely free to do as the wish as far as RP goes. Inclusion or exclusion of an individual, and to what degree, is absolutely a personal choice. No real way to argue or debate that point. However, putting things in a snide or outright exclusionary tone is really not going to help anything. Statements that say pretty much flat out "If you do not conform to what I think is correct, I will just have you not exist," are not helpful. They are pretty much just come off sounding like absolute dick levels of exclusion. You are not stating you opinion at that point, at least, not entirely. You are stating your opinion in a fashion that is pretty much meant to make someone feel like crap for not conforming to how you see things.Â
I mean, you are free to do that if you like. I am just advising that maybe you should realize you are coming off as just as stubborn, inflexible, and (to be completely frank) the mean/dick form of elitist. No civil discussion is ever going to be had on any subject if that is how people are going to continue to come across. Try to keep an open mind, or maybe just make less absolute statements. Only Sith deal in those, and those guys are dicks. No one here is the final arbiter of what is right or wrong. There is no pure truth, only the consensus. Try to add to that consensus in a kinder and more civil manner. I think things will honestly go better if we all try and do that.
Just some food for thought. Have a nice day.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - ArmachiA - 03-15-2015
So... you want me to lie and say I'm okay with it because I may make someone who plays a WHM feel bad? Because I'm not. I believe in following lore, and I believe that bending lore should be realistic, to which I believe being a WHM is not (Especially when confirmed by the devs there's only one, which people just seem to be ignoring completely).
I'm OKAY with people running around being WHMs if they want, but it's absolutely my choice not to acknowledge that they are or, if they constantly remind everyone they are a WHM, ignore them completely.
I hardly think I'm being a dick about this, unless being a dick means "I disagree with that."
It's not elitist at all to want to follow lore closely. I have no idea why people throw that word around because I disagree with something. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, that's just the kind of roleplay I - and the people I rp with - like. All of us agreed to follow lore as closely as possible. It's what we enjoy. That's all.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Verad - 03-15-2015
If one chooses not to acknowledge a WHM, what does the WHM lose?
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - ArmachiA - 03-15-2015
Nothing. The WHM probably already have friends they rp with who don't care they're a WHM ICly
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Verad - 03-15-2015
So then why does it matter if you choose not to acknowledge them?
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - V'aleera - 03-15-2015
I'd say the issue arises from the fact that a lot of people don't seem to care to keep things at the "Whatever, I'll just ignore you" level, and prefer to escalate it to the level of direct and willful derision.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Verad - 03-15-2015
I also get the impression that there's a hope, however slight, amongst some that enough people failing to acknowledge a character acts as a kind of silent treatment in the aggregate, and that enough social pressure will force such a player to change their ways.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - ArmachiA - 03-15-2015
Not really. We're just talking in this thread about WHMs and their relation to lore and how I respond to them. You won't see me talk about this stuff outside these kinds of threads or even in game with a bunch of people I'm not friends with.
This is a discussion forum. It's kind of what we do here. I find it strange everyone thinks there's some underlying manipulation trying to happen here.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Yssen - 03-15-2015
(03-15-2015, 11:18 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: So... you want me to lie and say I'm okay with it because I may make someone who plays a WHM feel bad? Because I'm not. I believe in following lore, and I believe that bending lore should be realistic, to which I believe being a WHM is not (Especially when confirmed by the devs there's only one, which people just seem to be ignoring completely).
I'm OKAY with people running around being WHMs if they want, but it's absolutely my choice not to acknowledge that they are or, if they constantly remind everyone they are a WHM, ignore them completely.
I hardly think I'm being a dick about this, unless being a dick means "I disagree with that."
It's not elitist at all to want to follow lore closely. I have no idea why people throw that word around because I disagree with something. I don't think I'm better than anyone else, that's just the kind of roleplay I - and the people I rp with - like. All of us agreed to follow lore as closely as possible. It's what we enjoy. That's all.
To clarify. I am not saying that your individual opinion makes you a dick. I am saying that there are ways of stating your opinion that come off as less dickish/mean than "You are doing it wrong, you don't exist, and I refuse to interact with you because you disagree with me." Your opinion is your own. Go for it. Own it. Rock on with it. Do as you will.Â
I am simply advocating that stating your opinion in a more civil manner than absolute exclusion, or keeping a more open mind about where someone is coming from might be helpful. Particularly when trying to prevent these discussions from getting to a point where the mods have to lock them because everyone is screaming at each other, and the whole thing has devolved into everyone making/seeing everything as a personal attack.Â
I am not here to tell you how to play your character or RP in the game. No one here can. There is no right, there is no wrong. Heck, new lore can come out and everyone can be end up on the wrong end of it. Notable examples I can think of include - some of the Garleans are a race unto themselves, the Elementals were not always in the Shroud, how many Dragoons actually exist and what they look like, or some of the various cultural details of the races. There is a lot of "we don't know" out there that is not absolute, and treating someone as lesser because we treat some of that "we don't know" as absolute is probably something we should all avoid. We should try to keep an open mind as far as the "we don't knows" go.
In short, the opinion you hold does not make you a dick. How you treat/react to people because of the opinion you hold does, potentially. How we phrase things to others does, potentially. We must strive not to forget that there are other feeling, thinking humans on the other sides of our screens, and try to treat people like they are anything less than that. No matter what our opinion may be (or what we agree or disagree on) we do not have the right to treat someone poorly or act like a jerk because of it.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - ArmachiA - 03-15-2015
I don't know man, I've been pretty civil here and in pasts threads, with the only caveat being "I just won't roleplay with you."
- I've stated that I'm excited to see how they open up WHM
- I've stated I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone and they can rp how they wish
- I've stated I'm not even trying to actively change anyone's mind
- but then I also stated that just as they can choose how they can roleplay I can choose my reaction to that (Which is to not really engage too deeply with a WHM RPer).
Can it be done? Certainly. Sounssy figured out for a player to be a WHM completely within lore and I even applauded the effort. Do most people go through that effort? No. (I SAID MOST before you jump in.)
This reminds me of the penn and teller "Being offended" skit:
Which pretty much sums up my opinion.
"If your offended, get away from it. But there's no need to ban it."