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+--- Thread: A New Primal Approaches (/showthread.php?tid=11877)
RE: A New Primal Approaches - Unnamed Mercenary - 06-04-2015
(06-04-2015, 11:00 PM)Memenu Wrote:(06-04-2015, 10:16 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Primals siphon aether from the land by existing. Â It doesn't have to be conscious. Â It's just how they work. Â They can't maintain a form without doing so, and that is why they are such a problem. Â Tempering is a secondary issue, and their love of crystals goes right back with their need to constantly consume aether to continue existing.
Someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I could swear this has been mentioned at least two or three times so far in this thread, and thus far you have never addressed it. Â You keep ignoring that pesky, but important fact.
I haven't been ignoring it, I've just been thinking about it. Since the body used to be that of one of her followers, and that it is a physical (read; a naturally created, living) body, would, or could it completely negate the draining of Aether? I don't know, the reason; It hasn't been explored or even commented on in-lore. It'd explain the lack of need for crystals, Tempered followers, etc, but it would be a bit too...Convenient, so to speak.
Shiva.
Iceheart still needed crystals, we can assume prayer, and some method of summoning the primal essence onto herself. As said earlier, a primal needs to willingly temper individuals, but the aether drain is a constant force.
person opinion: I think having a living body as a base might lessen the amount of aether needed/drained, but it shouldn't negate it. A primal is, by definition, still going to be draining aether by existing in the physical plane.
RE: A New Primal Approaches - Jana - 06-05-2015
If your Primal character is summoned in Thanalan, then the disruption in the aether will be felt not only by the Scions still stationed there, but likely by the Immortal Flames as well. While we in the RPC do generally say "play what you want," this kind of character is basically being set up to be hunted down by a lot of the active characters playing military in Ul'dah. I'd caution against, unless that's the kind of thing you're going for.
RE: A New Primal Approaches - Viola - 06-05-2015
(06-04-2015, 11:04 PM)Unnamed Mercenary Wrote: Shiva.
Iceheart still needed crystals, we can assume prayer, and some method of summoning the primal essence onto herself. As said earlier, a primal needs to willingly temper individuals, but the aether drain is a constant force.
person opinion: I think having a living body as a base might lessen the amount of aether needed/drained, but it shouldn't negate it. A primal is, by definition, still going to be draining aether by existing in the physical plane.
The problem is; Iceheart calls upon Shiva's powers, while Memenu literally uses the soulless body as her own living body. Obviously the body's going to need sustenence somehow; eating, drinking, sleeping, etc.
As good as these questions are, I'm not versed enough in the lore to actually have, what I believe, is a reasonable opinion, and I'm actually starting to run out of possibilities on how this could work because of how good these questions are, lol.
-edit-
I apparently don't know how to use quotes. Fixed.
RE: A New Primal Approaches - LiadansWhisper - 06-05-2015
(06-05-2015, 12:05 AM)Memenu Wrote: The problem is; Iceheart calls upon Shiva's powers, while Memenu literally uses the soulless body as her own living body. Obviously the body's going to need sustenence somehow; eating, drinking, sleeping, etc.
As good as these questions are, I'm not versed enough in the lore to actually have, what I believe, is a reasonable opinion, and I'm actually starting to run out of possibilities on how this could work because of how good these questions are, lol.
You're still gonna be sucking aether out of the land like a junkie. Â There isn't a single example of a primal existing without stripping aether out of the land. Â It's a huge downside of their existence and is the reason there are immediate efforts to put them down.
RE: A New Primal Approaches - Viola - 06-05-2015
(06-05-2015, 12:01 AM)Jana Wrote: If your Primal character is summoned in Thanalan, then the disruption in the aether will be felt not only by the Scions still stationed there, but likely by the Immortal Flames as well. While we in the RPC do generally say "play what you want," this kind of character is basically being set up to be hunted down by a lot of the active characters playing military in Ul'dah. I'd caution against, unless that's the kind of thing you're going for.Going by the Story, the only ones (to my knowledge) that felt a Primal's presence was Limsa Lominsa with Titan's quakes. Ifrit was only found out due to the Hero of Light being sent to investigate disappearances out in Thanalan. (Though to be fair, it was at this point where both Ul'Dah and Gridania knew Ifrit and Garuda had already been summoned. Titan was purposely trying to bring down Lominsa, and Leviathan, who we could assume was also already summoned at this point was MIA.)
(06-05-2015, 12:07 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:(06-05-2015, 12:05 AM)Memenu Wrote: The problem is; Iceheart calls upon Shiva's powers, while Memenu literally uses the soulless body as her own living body. Obviously the body's going to need sustenence somehow; eating, drinking, sleeping, etc.
As good as these questions are, I'm not versed enough in the lore to actually have, what I believe, is a reasonable opinion, and I'm actually starting to run out of possibilities on how this could work because of how good these questions are, lol.
You're still gonna be sucking aether out of the land like a junkie. Â There isn't a single example of a primal existing without stripping aether out of the land. Â It's a huge downside of their existence and is the reason there are immediate efforts to put them down.
And this is the one Problem I cannot figure out how to get around. Crystals are easy enough to get in small quantities and could potentially act as a supplemental mask (I think), but the consistent purchase of crystals will most likely raise questions eventually. (However, as an adventurer, the Warrior of Light gets a metric shitton of 'em)
RE: A New Primal Approaches - Reppu - 06-05-2015
Not all problems should be 'worked around'. At that point, why be a Primal then? You'd be a Primal in name only... which would be what some would say is a 'cry for attention'.
Until lore proves otherwise, the flaws have to be noted. And that big one is 'you are killing the planet by merely existing'.
Even inhabiting a soulless husk (which comes across more as a voidsent, but we have plenty of those in RP as it is and will only see more 'succubi' with the Au Ra) likely will not negate this, as noted. As people pointed out, Shiva required crystals to be made manifest. This suggests she does what every other Primal does.
Anyway, point is, you should not throw away the defining Primal threat; the slow course to insanity by feeding off aether. Your character having a doomsday clock can be a fun bit of RP, too. Eventually she has to be slaughtered, reborn again, and amass her power all over again.
... I will note one other thing; The Garlean Empire does not really do the whole 'enslaving' thing, aside from making VIPs prisoners. From everything we have seen, they tend to conquer and never raze or otherwise make individuals miserable, unless they try to do a coup (IE: Doma was fine under Garlean rule, then the succession wars had them coup, and they got razed to the ground for it).
I guess the question is, what did these lalafell -do- to piss the Garlean Empire off enough to not kill them, but also do what they characteristically do not do; ie imprison/enslave. TL;DR "Kneel to us or piss off" more than "SHACKLES AND SLAVES"
... And in the end, "Why a Primal?". I guess it would be one hell of an antagonist!
RE: A New Primal Approaches - Terra - 06-05-2015
I don't know if anyone has brought up Odin, but the story implied that Odin appears regularly like he does without any worshippers because of being tied to Zantetsuken and the sword takes over anyone hapless enough to pick it up and possesses that person and then slowly drinks up Aether until he can fully manifest again
Might be a good angle to work with.
RE: A New Primal Approaches - Viola - 06-05-2015
Sorry, I was tired as hell last night, that's why I didn't reply to your comment, Reppu.
The one who acted as sacrifice for Memenu had her soul more or less burned away as Memenu's Aether took control; the final thoughts a constant echo in her 'mind'.
I'm not entirely sure a Primal "goes mad" through devouring Aether. Maybe I missed something (more than likely) and I don't remember.
also, Terra; did you ever play on Siren at some point? your character name is familiar.
RE: A New Primal Approaches - Terra - 06-05-2015
I have never played on Siren, but I actively post on the lodestone forums promoting Brynhildr RP and I do believe I joined the NeoNoah enjin Siren forum for the same reason I joined up here: I'm looking for a server I can expand some Alts onto and I'm trying to get a feel for different communities and groups to decide one to join before committing a new character there.
RE: A New Primal Approaches - mongi291 - 06-05-2015
To be honest, during the MSQ, Garuda forces the captive Amalj'aa and Kobolds to summon Ifrit and Titan, and no crystal was seen there (and even if there were some, they would have probably been drained of their powers by Garuda).
So in my opinion, crystals aren't needed to summon a Primal and sustain its physical form, but they are used to empower the Primal. Without them, the Primal would be weaker, but still able to survive, probably sustaining itself by draining the aether from around them.
RE: A New Primal Approaches - LiadansWhisper - 06-05-2015
(06-05-2015, 03:14 PM)mongi291 Wrote: To be honest, during the MSQ, Garuda forces the captive Amalj'aa and Kobolds to summon Ifrit and Titan, and no crystal was seen there (and even if there were some, they would have probably been drained of their powers by Garuda).
So in my opinion, crystals aren't needed to summon a Primal and sustain its physical form, but they are used to empower the Primal. Without them, the Primal would be weaker, but still able to survive, probably sustaining itself by draining the aether from around them.
You can be sure that there were crystals involved, even if you didn't see any. Â It's pretty much concrete that crystals (i.e. large amounts of available aether) are required to summon Primals if they are not already in existence. Â The reason is that their bodies are literally made of aether, and without that aether to form their bodies, they don't manifest.
RE: A New Primal Approaches - Kage - 06-05-2015
(06-05-2015, 09:35 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:In the same cutscene, Garuda talks about the Ixali providing her with loads of crystals. It's not inconceivable that not only were the aether of the dead Amalj'aa and Kobolds were used but the crystals they brought her to summon Titan and Ifrit.(06-05-2015, 03:14 PM)mongi291 Wrote: To be honest, during the MSQ, Garuda forces the captive Amalj'aa and Kobolds to summon Ifrit and Titan, and no crystal was seen there (and even if there were some, they would have probably been drained of their powers by Garuda).
So in my opinion, crystals aren't needed to summon a Primal and sustain its physical form, but they are used to empower the Primal. Without them, the Primal would be weaker, but still able to survive, probably sustaining itself by draining the aether from around them.
You can be sure that there were crystals involved, even if you didn't see any. Â It's pretty much concrete that crystals (i.e. large amounts of available aether) are required to summon Primals if they are not already in existence. Â The reason is that their bodies are literally made of aether, and without that aether to form their bodies, they don't manifest.
RE: A New Primal Approaches - LiadansWhisper - 06-05-2015
(06-05-2015, 10:18 PM)Kage Wrote: In the same cutscene, Garuda talks about the Ixali providing her with loads of crystals. It's not inconceivable that not only were the aether of the dead Amalj'aa and Kobolds were used but the crystals they brought her to summon Titan and Ifrit.
That's honestly what I had assumed happened when I saw the cutscene.
RE: A New Primal Approaches - Viola - 06-06-2015
Either way, it sounds like a huge oversight on the part of the devs to not at least have the boxes of crystals near the Primals when they're summoned.
Either way, the drain on the planet issue is something that I hoped would've been bypassed by giving Memenu a legitimate living body over a body requiring Aether and crystals to continue to manifest. However, it seems that the issue is to stay, regardless of steps taken.
RE: A New Primal Approaches - Aduu Avagnar - 06-06-2015
I don't think its that much of an oversight. It was established beforehand that they require aether. It was established through out the MSQ that all Primals drain the land of aether, simply by existing. And its also not that much of an oversight if Garuda states that crystals were provided her. They don't need to visualise it if it was described....