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The Usage of Future Tense - Printable Version

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RE: The Usage of Future Tense - LiadansWhisper - 09-21-2015

(09-21-2015, 11:09 AM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 11:03 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 10:39 AM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 10:32 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 10:29 AM)Ignacius Wrote: Maybe so, but the problem is that I'm not writing Ziggy's character.  And Ziggy's player can take my sentence and say, "You're swinging at Ziggy's head, you can't back out now."

And, technically speaking, he'd be absolutely correct.  I did not say Ignacius would try to swing at Ziggy's head in that example ("would" being a conditional word that assumes his head is readily available for separation) I said he tried to swing at Ziggy's head.

While we might all know what I intended, that hardly would be an issue to the head's owner.  What's at issue is that Ignacius was locked into an action, despite the reaction.

And in the past, if Ignacius drew his sword and tried to cut off Ziggy's head, in your example, Ziggy has already not had his head cut off.  Otherwise, that wouldn't make much sense.  It's essentially the difference between writing a short story by yourself (where action is all predetermined) and RP (which is, technically speaking, happening in the present with conditions abounding).

Of course, with your friends or relatively apologetic and forgiving company, intent is fine.  Then all this is meaningless, literally everything.  You could write everything in the future tense with mispelled words and completely not get your point across until you throw in a lot of OOC explanation.  If people are inclined to just let it all roll, there's nothing to worry about.

Open RP is just not a place where you're going to run into universally agreeable company.  Ziggy's certainly going to argue with his potential decapitation.

The people you RP with sound like grognard assholes.

I'm sure the former roleplaying userbase of Yahoo IM's roleplaying forums appreciate your generalization based on the manner they mutually and often respectably handled combat with strangers with no dice pools present or mutual backstory.

As a former Yahoo RPer  (hello Ayenee!), we were assholes .

However,  I don't remember ever rping in future tense with "woulds."  And I am an old school rper.

That's probably why you thought everyone were assholes (Lex Tangent, Red Roman, Donovan Clay, Bruce de Coyne, Alexander Eis, Vic Giovanni, Constance Anavictor, et al).  If all you were running into in combat was a lot of frustration, but you do things that keep landing you in combat, and you don't know how to write your way through it, you probably didn't know what was going on.

Believe me, you learn early to say what you "would" do rather than what you "are" doing.  After ignoring the t9ers, I never had a problem with anything else.  You learn or you don't; it's the same with any medium.

Lol?

You're saying my problem was that I just didn't know how to rp?

Hahahhahahahahhahaahah

No.

Yahoo rp was full of assholes. But thanks for your attempt to insult me. Too bad it didn't work out for you, cupcake.

RE: The Usage of Future Tense - Ignacius - 09-21-2015

(09-21-2015, 11:13 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 11:09 AM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 11:03 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 10:39 AM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 10:32 AM)Warren Castille Wrote: The people you RP with sound like grognard assholes.

I'm sure the former roleplaying userbase of Yahoo IM's roleplaying forums appreciate your generalization based on the manner they mutually and often respectably handled combat with strangers with no dice pools present or mutual backstory.

As a former Yahoo RPer  (hello Ayenee!), we were assholes .

However,  I don't remember ever rping in future tense with "woulds."  And I am an old school rper.

That's probably why you thought everyone were assholes (Lex Tangent, Red Roman, Donovan Clay, Bruce de Coyne, Alexander Eis, Vic Giovanni, Constance Anavictor, et al).  If all you were running into in combat was a lot of frustration, but you do things that keep landing you in combat, and you don't know how to write your way through it, you probably didn't know what was going on.

Believe me, you learn early to say what you "would" do rather than what you "are" doing.  After ignoring the t9ers, I never had a problem with anything else.  You learn or you don't; it's the same with any medium.

Lol?

You're saying my problem was that I just didn't know how to rp?

Hahahhahahahahhahaahah

No.

Yahoo rp was full of assholes. But thanks for your attempt to insult me. Too bad it didn't work out for you, cupcake.

No, I'm saying you might not have been aware of how to survive in tactical checkmate combat.  There's a reason I learned to do these things.

I've learned to read what people actually write.

RE: The Usage of Future Tense - Warren Castille - 09-21-2015

(09-21-2015, 11:13 AM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 11:05 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 10:58 AM)Ignacius Wrote: Yet, according to the sentence, Ignacius only tried to swing at Ziggy's neck; that example leaves no room to not continue doing it.  That may sound petty to you, someone may say "you know what I meant", but the other person only has to say, "But you didn't write what you mean, then."  And this is a stranger who, one would think, thinks he has as much right to cut off Ignacius's arm as he does to lose his head.  In the end, only the wording matters.

I mean, you're perfectly welcome to think of Ziggy what you want for taking the sentence literally as it was written, but truthfully Ziggy has no reason not to and isn't necessarily a bad person for doing so.  It would be my own fault for writing it so that Ignacius wasn't wary enough to stop swinging at Ziggy's neck when Ziggy's sword came out.

Ziggy sounds like a dick. Anyone looking to hamstring you on your choice of tense or phrasing isn't trying to roleplay with you, they're masturbating over their English textbooks. It's poor etiquette to hold a character accountable for a writer's technical abilities.

I mean, I don't know what to tell you.  Poor me?  How do you know Ziggy is a dick?  For all intents and purposes Ignacius started the fight and with a total stranger.  He's not a dick for defending himself.  It's not endemic on him to just say, "Oh, you didn't mean what you typed.  That's okay.  I'll let you parry, whoever you are, and you can try to kill me on your next action."

It's not about masturbating over grammer, trying to cut someone's head off is functionally different than swinging at someone with the intent to cut there head off if it's available.  It implies Ignacius wasn't wary of quick reflexes and reactions.  It's not Ziggy's job to write Ignacius for me.

I can't think of a better way to articulate this, but let me give it a shot. There is a world of difference between "You tried to cut my head off and missed because my character moved/deflected/dodged/whatever" and "You tried to cut my head off but didn't write it well enough so it misses."

"You lose because I'm a better writer" completely removes a character's input and it turns into two word processors duking it out, rendering your actual character completely irrelevant to your OOC writing chops.

RE: The Usage of Future Tense - Ignacius - 09-21-2015

(09-21-2015, 11:16 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 11:13 AM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 11:05 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 10:58 AM)Ignacius Wrote: Yet, according to the sentence, Ignacius only tried to swing at Ziggy's neck; that example leaves no room to not continue doing it.  That may sound petty to you, someone may say "you know what I meant", but the other person only has to say, "But you didn't write what you mean, then."  And this is a stranger who, one would think, thinks he has as much right to cut off Ignacius's arm as he does to lose his head.  In the end, only the wording matters.

I mean, you're perfectly welcome to think of Ziggy what you want for taking the sentence literally as it was written, but truthfully Ziggy has no reason not to and isn't necessarily a bad person for doing so.  It would be my own fault for writing it so that Ignacius wasn't wary enough to stop swinging at Ziggy's neck when Ziggy's sword came out.

Ziggy sounds like a dick. Anyone looking to hamstring you on your choice of tense or phrasing isn't trying to roleplay with you, they're masturbating over their English textbooks. It's poor etiquette to hold a character accountable for a writer's technical abilities.

I mean, I don't know what to tell you.  Poor me?  How do you know Ziggy is a dick?  For all intents and purposes Ignacius started the fight and with a total stranger.  He's not a dick for defending himself.  It's not endemic on him to just say, "Oh, you didn't mean what you typed.  That's okay.  I'll let you parry, whoever you are, and you can try to kill me on your next action."

It's not about masturbating over grammer, trying to cut someone's head off is functionally different than swinging at someone with the intent to cut there head off if it's available.  It implies Ignacius wasn't wary of quick reflexes and reactions.  It's not Ziggy's job to write Ignacius for me.

I can't think of a better way to articulate this, but let me give it a shot. There is a world of difference between "You tried to cut my head off and missed because my character moved/deflected/dodged/whatever" and "You tried to cut my head off but didn't write it well enough so it misses."

I understand what you're trying to say, but you're not seeing this in the context it was originally in.  This is with total strangers.  If I'm trying to cut someone's head off, they aren't supposed to let me, especially if I don't know them.  If we're strangers, all they HAVE is my writing to go on.  If I don't write it well, that's not on Ziggy, and it's not endemic on him to grant me mercy because I didn't mean to write it that way.

In the end, I wrote it that way.  In small, closeted, premade groups, this kind of thing isn't an issue.  However, I don't RP with just a couple friends and I don't like having extended OOC conversations to plan out what's going on.  I really do like meeting random people for unorganized and organic RP.

Sometimes that means ending up in a fight with a dedicated opponent.  That's how it goes sometimes.  Then again, I learned not to write it in a way where Ziggy could interpret my words that way.  I used the present tense with a future conditional.

The issue rarely came up with me.

RE: The Usage of Future Tense - Aya - 09-21-2015

I find the tense rather annoying to read, and it is nice no know that the intent is to be polite.  I suppose I feel that emotes should read like a book, which are typically written in the past tense unless there is a good reason not to.  Just because an action is written in the past tense doesn't mean it is somehow written in stone ^^

In actions that are expected to be opposed it is easy to shift either to present tense or use wording that makes it clear the described action is an attempt, rather than slipping into the very unusual realm of the Future Perfect.  To me it just instinctively rings on the ear to as an attempt to sound more formal, and just never felt right (which is why the actual intent is helpful now to know ^^).  But writing style is a highly personal matter.

RE: The Usage of Future Tense - Roen - 09-21-2015

I am with Aya on this. Writing style is a personal preference.

But as to where the usage of future tense came from... I guess we have this thread to thank for the history! I would have always assumed it was out of courtesy either way.

I use either past or present. Lately past tense has been my preference since I find myself writing RP actions like a narrative. But I switch to accommodate whoever I am RPing with since I like for things to be consistent going back and forth!

RE: The Usage of Future Tense - Ignacius - 09-21-2015

(09-21-2015, 11:35 AM)Aya Wrote: I find the tense rather annoying to read, and it is nice no know that the intent is to be polite.  I suppose I feel that emotes should read like a book, which are typically written in the past tense unless there is a good reason not to.  Just because an action is written in the past tense doesn't mean it is somehow written in stone ^^

In actions that are expected to be opposed it is easy to shift either to present tense or use wording that makes it clear the described action is an attempt, rather than slipping into the very unusual realm of the Future Perfect.  To me it just instinctively rings on the ear to as an attempt to sound more formal, and just never felt right (which is why the actual intent is helpful now to know ^^).  But writing style is a highly personal matter.

Yeah, that's usually where the dissonance is.  Books aren't generally written in the future tense or present tense (even if they're meant to take place in the future or present).  Narratively, we are conditioned to accept all stories happened in the past (otherwise, how would you tell them?) so we don't often narrate in the present tense.

Honestly, if no one ever takes a swing at you that you didn't know is coming (or if you never intend to RP with people who would do that and plan to ignore anyone that tries) it never becomes an issue.  I'm certainly not out there yelling at people typing posts in the past tense.  Not that anyone's been inclined to take a swing at Orleans yet.  He's a kind of intimidating guy.

However, Kage did ask why he would have seen that, and I wanted to answer him.  He's probably never had to worry about tactical checkmating yet (and may never have to).  However, if you see present or future tense, particularly in the manner he typed it in the OP, the history of tactical checkmating is why.  It was the traditional form of IM and open forum RP for the purposes of contested actions.

If you aren't going to be drawn into life or death combat with strangers in your RP, it won't come up.  People should feel free to do so.  Like I said, nobody is going to care about what tense your character says hello in.

RE: The Usage of Future Tense - Sylentmana - 09-21-2015

I usually try to write as if the actions are happening in the now. Present tense I guess. I avoid accusations of godmodding by giving clear indication of my character's intent as well as leaving the result open for the other person to put in.

For example: "Cecilia makes a tackle at (insert character name here)'s legs in an attempt to trip them up." This leaves it open for the other player to decide if my character succeeds in her attempt.

RE: The Usage of Future Tense - Vyce - 09-21-2015

Future tense is hands down the best way to open end a combat RP.

Present tense requires understanding of written language to adequately account for the possibility of change.

Past tense means you are constantly retconning history as the RP progresses, which bothers the crap out of me. Noo. Stop it.

P.S.

Not really sure if the tone that was happening in here was necessary/allowed, but I'll just hope it isn't representative of the community as a whole.

RE: The Usage of Future Tense - Aya - 09-21-2015

(09-21-2015, 11:46 AM)Ignacius Wrote: If you aren't going to be drawn into life or death combat with strangers in your RP, it won't come up.  People should feel free to do so.  Like I said, nobody is going to care about what tense your character says hello in.
I think it is much broader than that.  Even if you expect opposed action there is no need to use the Future Perfect.  It is but one option for trying to get across what you are trying to express.

Future Perfect: Guyaxe would swing his mighty axe to sever Jerkface's head from his body.

Perfect:  Guyaxe swung his mighty axe in a desperate attempt to sever Jerkface's head from his body.

Present:  Guyaxe swings his mighty axe in a desperate attempt to sever Jerkface's head from his body.

Imperfect:  Guyaxe was swinging his mighty axe in a desperate attempt to sever Jerkface's head from his body.

Present Conditional: Guyaxe swings his mighty axe and if all went right would sever Jerkface's head from his body.

It is entirely a matter of style.  I would argue that there is a most appropriate tense given context (usually perfect tense if it is part of a narrative), but that whatever sounds or feels best (or perhaps is easier to use and follow to the writer) can be justified Smile

RE: The Usage of Future Tense - LiadansWhisper - 09-21-2015

(09-21-2015, 11:15 AM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 11:13 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 11:09 AM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 11:03 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 10:39 AM)Ignacius Wrote: I'm sure the former roleplaying userbase of Yahoo IM's roleplaying forums appreciate your generalization based on the manner they mutually and often respectably handled combat with strangers with no dice pools present or mutual backstory.

As a former Yahoo RPer  (hello Ayenee!), we were assholes .

However,  I don't remember ever rping in future tense with "woulds."  And I am an old school rper.

That's probably why you thought everyone were assholes (Lex Tangent, Red Roman, Donovan Clay, Bruce de Coyne, Alexander Eis, Vic Giovanni, Constance Anavictor, et al).  If all you were running into in combat was a lot of frustration, but you do things that keep landing you in combat, and you don't know how to write your way through it, you probably didn't know what was going on.

Believe me, you learn early to say what you "would" do rather than what you "are" doing.  After ignoring the t9ers, I never had a problem with anything else.  You learn or you don't; it's the same with any medium.

Lol?

You're saying my problem was that I just didn't know how to rp?

Hahahhahahahahhahaahah

No.

Yahoo rp was full of assholes. But thanks for your attempt to insult me. Too bad it didn't work out for you, cupcake.

No, I'm saying you might not have been aware of how to survive in tactical checkmate combat.  There's a reason I learned to do these things.

I've learned to read what people actually write.

Au contraire, mom ami, I was very good at the bullet style of combat, and the other two styles as well. That doesn't change my statement one iota.

RE: The Usage of Future Tense - Sylentmana - 09-21-2015

It's really all a preference in style and I don't really see the point in arguing over it. I feel like this thread is becoming dangerously close to having a mod step in.

RE: The Usage of Future Tense - Melkire - 09-21-2015

[Admin Hardhat]

Going to preemptively ask that folks cool their heels on this. If you find yourself making personal remarks, or you find yourself on the receiving end of personal remarks, it's probably for the best if you step back from the thread for a while. That will help keep this discussion on track before a significant portion of it devolves into derailing personal disputes.

Thank You.

[/Admin Hardhat]


As far as collaborative writing and roleplay are concerned, I come from a play-by-post background and the use of future tense, or present tense phrased to communicate intent and request permission, is almost unheard of there. The Grindstone was the first time in XIV or anywhere else that I'd seen such a thing. Perhaps that was and is common in AOL and Yahoo RP. I wouldn't know. What I do know is that there are plenty of ways in which to phrase actions in past tense so as to leave whoever follows up with the next post enough freedom that "godmodding" was a rare accusation (and usually enough to get the violator booted from the thread).

Just my two cents.

RE: The Usage of Future Tense - Ignacius - 09-21-2015

(09-21-2015, 12:00 PM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 11:15 AM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 11:13 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 11:09 AM)Ignacius Wrote:
(09-21-2015, 11:03 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: As a former Yahoo RPer  (hello Ayenee!), we were assholes .

However,  I don't remember ever rping in future tense with "woulds."  And I am an old school rper.

That's probably why you thought everyone were assholes (Lex Tangent, Red Roman, Donovan Clay, Bruce de Coyne, Alexander Eis, Vic Giovanni, Constance Anavictor, et al).  If all you were running into in combat was a lot of frustration, but you do things that keep landing you in combat, and you don't know how to write your way through it, you probably didn't know what was going on.

Believe me, you learn early to say what you "would" do rather than what you "are" doing.  After ignoring the t9ers, I never had a problem with anything else.  You learn or you don't; it's the same with any medium.

Lol?

You're saying my problem was that I just didn't know how to rp?

Hahahhahahahahhahaahah

No.

Yahoo rp was full of assholes. But thanks for your attempt to insult me. Too bad it didn't work out for you, cupcake.

No, I'm saying you might not have been aware of how to survive in tactical checkmate combat.  There's a reason I learned to do these things.

I've learned to read what people actually write.

Au contraire, mom ami, I was very good at the bullet style of combat, and the other two styles as well. That doesn't change my statement one iota.


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RE: The Usage of Future Tense - Kage - 09-21-2015

To be honest, this apparent need of "would" etc seems like it is a need stemming from metamodding. The entire need of tactical checkmating just seems like a lot of needing to have a forceful OOC player writing to force such and such IC consequences.

I don't know, that's just my opinion of what I'm reading. Then again, I'm also not in the mood to roleplay with people who would randomly want to cut off my character's head so that might be it. Any other time it is someone sending me a tell or PM saying "Are you ok with your character being kidnapped in public?" or "Are you ok with this possible consequence?"