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+--- Thread: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. (/showthread.php?tid=8889)
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Xydane - 11-10-2014
I'm just going to throw my two cents into this one. I agree with Tiergan 100% completely as there is a very thin line you cannot cross with it comes to anything gaming related (whether it's RP, chat, etc) and breaking the law.
There are divisions/teams in law enforcement who's sole duty (whether they play the game in general or not) is to search and investigate this kind of shit. If you think that's not true, think again.
There has been a lot of cases where people have met through MMO's and etc, ultimately coming to unfortunate events that have transpired.
It is also the duty of the players themselves to report to GMs' if they see and/or hear something that is off track.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Mae - 11-10-2014
(11-10-2014, 07:29 AM)Gwen Wrote: I know it was mentioned in the first couple of pages, but people really need to stop using 18+ as a rule.I think we were mostly using age 18 as a baseline because of the population spreads. Off the top of my head, I don't think there's a country that's got their age of majority/legality over 18, so it's kind of the "safe" age to assume unless confirmed between two partners to be otherwise.
So I suppose this is just aimed at people that have that set age at 18, and think anything lower is bad.
Not all countries use 18 as the age of consent. Gwen is 17, and if she ended up in such a situation, I wouldn't want people looking down on me because of her age.
She's a year older than is allowed here in England, so I think just sticking to an 18+ rule is not going to help the situation. Obviously I think a tiny 10 year old lalafell is off limits(Or any 10 year old), but my point is more that a lot of places have younger ages set so it might just be a nitpicky thing, but the age can vary depending on where you're located, some places have no laws, while others might be as low as puberty.
But don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to justify ERP with the young people, (I don't really enjoy it with any ages) and if they are young out of game, It would still be an issue, but my point is that saying 18+ is only going to cause issues if you yourself dislike anything younger than that age going for a diddle.
(11-10-2014, 10:01 AM)K Wrote: Now on the part of RPing characters that are considered under aged, lore also plays a significant role in how old or how young a character would be. If lore dictates that a certain race is considered an adult at a certain age, and the character meets up with the lore, even though real world laws would consider the character under age, then sorry but I feel lore trumps here. This is an imaginary world where we got giant green/blue/red skinned hulks, elegant long limbed and lock necked elves, youthful looking cat people, and even a race that looks like child elves.Localization teams will change lore to be in-line with the laws of their region. If that sort of lore is ever deemed necessary to be released, it will either a) be hard-set by the devs so that it is legal to ALL regions or b) the localization teams will adjust it for the country/region they're serving. It won't matter if region X has a lower age, in your region the age is different and that's the one you'll be judged upon.
In the end, if you're not in compliance with the laws if your country/region (regardless of where/what your partner is sitting/doing) and if you end up being under investigation, a prosecutor who's out for blood can make your life miserable. And if you're pulling someone else out of compliance with the laws of their country/region, you could get them in trouble.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Jana - 11-10-2014
18 is used because it's really the minimum "safe" age. Even states within the US all have different ages of consent, and travelers are still tied to the ones that their state applies to them (even outside of the US). It's a personal preference for me too; the AoC may be 16 in my state and 16 wherever you live, but since there's no way to be sure of where anyone I only know on the internet lives, I'll stand by 18 to keep myself and anyone I RP with out of trouble.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Tiergan - 11-11-2014
Out of curiosity - where is it stated lore-wise that certain races are deemed as adults earlier than normal? Do they actually age/mature faster than other races?
If we're talking like Salarians from Mass Effect (life span is very short, they age to adulthood mentally and physically way earlier than everyone else) - then I might understand, but otherwise, making lore claims still personally stands on some pretty dodgey territory for me. I mean, if miqo'te were deemed adults by 11 according to the lore, but they were still mentally and physically 11, I would hope that everyone would find that still find adult-child sexual RP to be something really awkward, creepy, and potentially enabling of some pretty terrifying predatory behavior.
Additionally, Mae is right about why 18 is considered the magic number. It is ultimately 'safe' no matter where you are from. Additionally, a lot of legal papers will still consider anyone under 18 a 'child' even if their age of consent is younger. (For example, the age of consent in Japan is 13, however they have a Child Welfare Act that defines a child as being anyone under the age of 18 - thus the age of consent in Japan is often disregarded or left up to individual regions to decide.) Or their age of consent is low, but you're allowed to drink, smoke, etc at 18 only - which implies that you're still not fully seen as a real 'adult' in the eyes of the law.
Even with regions where the age of consent really is solidly is 13 and you can bet your biscuits I will silently judge the heck out of folks if I see a twenty-something year old character RPing sexually charged stuff with a 13 year old character.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Gwen - 11-11-2014
(11-11-2014, 12:33 PM)Tiergan Wrote: Even with regions where the age of consent really is solidly is 13 and you can bet your biscuits I will silently judge the heck out of folks if I see a twenty-something year old character RPing sexually charged stuff with a 13 year old character.This is entirely my point though. I'm not saying I'm fine with a 13 year old character doing that, but the point I'm trying to make is that it might be fine in their country, and they shouldn't be judged for doing it. Morals aside, it's not really any different than judging me for spelling colour with a u. That's just how it is in said country.
18 being a safe age shouldn't suddenly mean any younger character under that should have their player judged, it's more a case of just respecting the people around you (On both sides.) Since, even if it is fine to do it, not many others want to see a 13 year old doing that, and in most cases that applies for 18+ as well. Since all logic here obviously can be used on both sides it's not really an easy discussion. It's more about just not doing it in public. People who's age is 13 need to respect that others wouldn't want to be okay with that, and people who's age is at 18 should respect that most other places use a younger age.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Zyrusticae - 11-11-2014
(11-10-2014, 02:34 PM)Xydane Wrote: I'm just going to throw my two cents into this one. I agree with Tiergan 100% completely as there is a very thin line you cannot cross with it comes to anything gaming related (whether it's RP, chat, etc) and breaking the law.I thought the better of bothering to come back in to post in this thread, but I need to point out that the bolded is the only case where you can actually be arrested. You have to show a real intent to engage in sex with an actual, real-life minor before you are even considered a threat.
There are divisions/teams in law enforcement who's sole duty (whether they play the game in general or not) is to search and investigate this kind of shit. If you think that's not true, think again.
There has been a lot of cases where people have met through MMO's and etc, ultimately coming to unfortunate events that have transpired.
It is also the duty of the players themselves to report to GMs' if they see and/or hear something that is off track.
Cybering, ERPing, or whatever with either an underage fictional character or a RL minor is never going to get you into trouble, and absolutely no one in this thread has shown any actual proof to the contrary. This is entirely irrespective of the perceived morality of engaging in the activity; people (plenty in this very thread, of course) will naturally look at anyone who engages in such askance but it is absolutely hilarious that people continue to assert something that has no proof.
You think it's icky? Fine! You're entitled to your opinion. I would, however, appreciate it if people would less spout falsehoods as fact just because they sound "right" or seem like what is "reasonable" when the reality is far removed from their vision of how things should be (and how things "should" be is obviously going to be different from person to person).
But okay. Since I've already disclosed that I ERPed as a minor (and told no one, except for one individual whom I trusted implicitly), I will also disclose (at the risk of outing myself as a creep - already done it once, don't really care anymore) that I engage in ERP with and as underage characters. No one in a position of authority actually gives a shit. Granted, I keep such activities low-key and far, far outside of the realm of the public eye, but still, if this were actually a criminal activity I would know about it!
And really, that's what it comes down to, isn't it? You just don't want to see it. You don't want to know about it when it happens. And that's already the case! This sort of thing happens everywhere in places you're just not aware of, and that's fine. No one is getting hurt. Everyone involved is giving their implicit consent to engage in such activity, and can withdraw from it at-will. There are some concerns stated in this thread about encouraging exploitation of minors etc. but it's incredibly silly to make that argument considering all the other questionable things we RP on a regular basis (helpfully listed by allgivenover). Let's not also forget that what we're talking about here essentially boils down to thought-crime, one with no real "victim" to speak of, which still isn't an actual thing you can be convicted for in any case.
I should note at this point that I don't really understand the folks who suggest that there should be some intrinsic artistic value in the things people RP. I don't agree with that at all. Sometimes you just want to kick back and have a good time, and I don't see anything wrong with that whatsoever. There are far worse offenses to me than people RPing out their repressed desires because they want to, such as ignoring the context of the setting, going full-on Mary Sue, godmoding, just plain old bad writing, and so on and so forth. The former I generally don't even get to see unless they MT; the latter is everywhere. Priorities, people!
So, in summary: ERPing with underage fictional characters is okay. It's also icky to a lot of people but nobody will get in serious trouble over it. ERPing with actual minors is far less okay but you still won't get arrested for it and most minors will not disclose their real age to you anyway if they have enough self-awareness to be engaging in ERP in the first place. Trying to solicit actual minors for real sex is totally wrong and you WILL get arrested for it but that has effectively nothing at all to do with ERP because you've already broken the IC/OOC barrier with impure intent.
I realize that by making this post there will be people who totally ignore my opinion in the future because they see me as morally bankrupt, and I am okay with that. If completely writing off the concept of thought-crime and having a very strong separation between IC and OOC is enough for someone to treat me as subhuman I probably never wanted to interact with an individual to begin with. C'est la vie.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Tiergan - 11-11-2014
(11-11-2014, 02:00 PM)Zyrusticae Wrote: Cybering, ERPing, or whatever with either an underage fictional character or a RL minor is never going to get you into trouble, and absolutely no one in this thread has shown any actual proof to the contrary.
Did you completely disregard the fact that Faye previously directly quoted you and posted about how a man in one of her guilds was part of the military and was forced to investigate another guy in the military for ERPing with a minor? And how that guy literally discharged from the military as a result of his actions?
Or the video where several people were labeled sex offenders for life after parents found the logs of a minor ERPing with an adult?
Think what you want about ERPing with underaged characters but ERPing with ACTUAL MINORS is against the law and HAS gotten people into trouble. Xydane has also worked with law enforcement and seen them investigate stuff like this. Once again - just because you got away with it and the parties involved were fine doesn't mean everyone who does it will be safe.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Kage - 11-11-2014
I think the biggest thing is that almost (if not all) of those here are those who -are- in countries with an age of consent higher than 16, or at least cases where adults are considered at age 18. Even if one person -is- from a country where the lower age is that of consent, the other is most likely in a place where it is not.
I'd almost liken it to drinking alcohol. Lots of people get away with it. Doesn't mean someone can and may actually get you in trouble for it.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Tiergan - 11-11-2014
Also, for those with 17 year old characters while being adults - I can kind of understand you. 17 is fairly close to 18. Just please, please be mindful of who you are RPing with as your ERP partner - make sure you're not enabling someone who may have particularly unhealthy behavior towards young people. And if you're going to try and pursue a character much older than yours, just hit them up with a tell to make sure they're comfortable with it first - that's all I ask.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - allgivenover - 11-11-2014
(11-11-2014, 02:22 PM)Tiergan Wrote: Did you completely disregard the fact that Faye previously directly quoted you and posted about how a man in one of her guilds was literally discharged from the military after being investigated for ERPing with a minor?
Or the video where several people were labeled sex offenders for life after parents found the logs of a minor ERPing with an adult?
I'll have to watch the video again, but I think people were just /stating/ that these things happened and not actually providing proof that it had. I'm not turning up evidence for either of them with google searching.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Kailia - 11-11-2014
Well here's a little dilema though. A lot of miqo'te tribe rpers, Hipparion Tribe being on this site, have established in their lore that their tribe tradition makes those at age 16, be considered adults, if they pass the trial of adulthood. My own character, was exiled from the tribe at age 16, and through RP, has been thrusted into leadership roles, been injured from combat, etc.
Right now my character is 17, and she's planning to be married around her namesday to a keeper she met, and has a romantic relationship with. Her lore which flows from the Hipparion tribe, says she is an adult. She's not a real person, she is a work of fiction, just like all of our characters. And considering how she was exiled (Sun Drake powder blown into her lungs), and the fact there's real world laws against child abuse. I suppose the ones who did that abusive RP, are in trouble as well? If someone can get in trouble for ERPing with fictional characters that real world laws say are minors, then the abuse my own fictional 17 year old went through would also apply.
Let me make it clear though. I am completely against ERPing with real world minors. If I was in an IC relationship like that and I suddenly found out the other person was underage in real life, and didn't tell me the truth, IC or not, that relationship would be over.
That being said, saying that 2 people with real life age of over 18, who play fictional under 18 characters, can get people in trouble because of real world laws, then we may as well apply every real world law to the fictional universe. In which case, the people who abused my fictional character, I wish them a lot of luck. See how silly that is?
Real World Minors - No, they are off limits and rightly so
Fictional characters - Just works of fiction and if people can be prosecuted for story telling then as someone else listed, there's a lot of real world authors who need prosecuted as well.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - allgivenover - 11-11-2014
(11-11-2014, 02:58 PM)K Wrote: Real World Minors - No, they are off limits and rightly so
Fictional characters - Just works of fiction and if people can be prosecuted for story telling then as someone else listed, there's a lot of real world authors who need prosecuted as well.
This right here.
I think at this point it's safe to say this topic is pointless fear-mongering and perhaps even outright promotion of thought-crime beyond the real world problem of soliciting a minor, and the latter is something that no one needed to be told isn't ok.
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - FreelanceWizard - 11-11-2014
Just a brief mod note here. I would prefer if people not say things on this thread that could get a subpoena floated my way.
I'm not saying that anyone has done this yet, just that one should be aware of the rather grey jurisprudence on this matter in the United States (remember: the Miller test is applied by a potentially icked-out jury, a fact not lost on prosecutors), the effects of elected prosecutors on prosecutorial discretion, and the fact that the RPC is indexed by all major search engines.Please tread carefully and continue to remain nice.
EDIT: For reference, because of how we're hosted, the RPC is governed by the laws and jurisprudence of Tennessee, Virginia, California, and the United States.
#magicAdminHat
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - crowmeleon - 11-11-2014
(11-11-2014, 01:19 PM)Gwen Wrote:(11-11-2014, 12:33 PM)Tiergan Wrote: Even with regions where the age of consent really is solidly is 13 and you can bet your biscuits I will silently judge the heck out of folks if I see a twenty-something year old character RPing sexually charged stuff with a 13 year old character.This is entirely my point though. I'm not saying I'm fine with a 13 year old character doing that, but the point I'm trying to make is that it might be fine in their country, and they shouldn't be judged for doing it. Morals aside, it's not really any different than judging me for spelling colour with a u. That's just how it is in said country.
18 being a safe age shouldn't suddenly mean any younger character under that should have their player judged, it's more a case of just respecting the people around you (On both sides.) Since, even if it is fine to do it, not many others want to see a 13 year old doing that, and in most cases that applies for 18+ as well. Since all logic here obviously can be used on both sides it's not really an easy discussion. It's more about just not doing it in public. People who's age is 13 need to respect that others wouldn't want to be okay with that, and people who's age is at 18 should respect that most other places use a younger age.
(This ended up far more than just a reply to you, more a summation and response to all posts thus far. Please excuse the length. )
I understand where you're coming from, but there's a difference between understanding and acknowledging cultural differences and agreeing with them.Â
I would say the problem is that we have a genuine slippery slope if we're to judge people's actions only as they are relevant to the legal or cultural norms of their population. I don't even have to list examples because I'm sure all of you can think of one or two policies within other countries you find personally abhorrent. (And I think it's best we don't give any exact examples lest this turn into a discussion on real politics). If they choose to roleplay out such an action in game and hold it in the same light as according to their personal laws and culture, but I find the action abhorrent, I still have the right to judge them. I'm going to try and give as ludicrous an example as possible, here.
On planet Xebob it is perfectly legal and culturally acceptable and encouraged to physically attack anyone who sneezes.Â
Yes, it's ridiculous. But again, I think it's better we keep it to 'out there' (quite literally) and light-hearted examples. Now if a Xebobian roleplays such, and portrays attacking someone who sneezes and portrays it in a completely acceptable tone both IC and OOC, I am still going to find it ridiculous and disagree with it OOC. I mean we have no lore to suggest the law isn't such in Eorzea, we have no lore to suggest it is. So technically from a lore standpoint, sure, you can roleplay it as culturally canon to beat up people when they sneeze and nobody can prove you wrong. I can acknowledge that this person would roleplay this because such is the cultural or legal practices of their population. I can understand. But I do not agree with the practice, and if someone roleplays such I will judge it so.Â
I'll level with you, because like I said, I DO get it. Even if I disagree, I understand where you're coming from. And I do acknowledge the difference between pedophilia and ephebophilia, which is the root of the majority of our disagreement here. At the end of the day 18 IS an arbitrarily chosen number. Because people develop at different rates, and despite our best attempts to pinpoint an 'average' point at which an individual is psychologically capable of consent, there will always be outliers. I'm sure we've all known a 17 year old more mature than a 19 year old. But to be fair, if 17 is okay, why not 16? There are some mature 16 year olds psychologically capable of consent, surely. Not to even start on the fact that because the character is being PLAYED by an adult, a character of any age psychologically capable of genuine consent is completely possible. So it really has to come back to blanket principle.Â
So speaking as a global roleplay community, why 18? As others have stated, 18 is the age at which the majority* of people are not being exposed to something they consider statutory rape OOC, and is flat out illegal, even OOC, for others (It would be legally equivalent to child pornography). I can understand that such puts someone, like you, playing a 17 year old in a country where she is legally capable of consent in a hard position. But can you really tell me you wouldn't judge someone from Angola roleplaying a relationship involving a 12 year old?
Unfortunately the reality of the situation is that if you play a character under 18 in a relationship with someone of age, people are going to judge you. Even if you don't rub it in their face, or involve their characters.Â
There are varying degrees of this of course, based on many factors. No one is going to judge a relationship between a 17 year old and a 20 year old like they would a 17 year old and a 40 year old. No one is going to judge a relationship involving a 17 year old like they would judge a relationship involving a 12 year old. But at the end of the day for many people these situations are still considered statutory rape. And I'll be flat out in saying that while I would disagree with your choice and would be much more comfortable when your character was 18, I definitely wouldn't brand you as a pedophile, or even a sexual deviant for rping a 17 year old involved in a healthy relationship with someone under 25. Though I'd be much more comfortable when your character was 18, I can't truthfully say I'd hold it against you. But that's my subjective opinion and I have respect the fact that that's exactly what it is- subjective. As other people have mentioned, it doesn't mean any of these things are 'off limits' from a literary standpoint. It all comes down to intention and tone- Keeping in fair mind that these things are subjective in themselves.
The strong reaction you see from those opposed is not from the material itself, it is in the opinion that this kind of roleplay is, as Pkthunda so eloquently put, "enabling of fantasies that are dangerous". This in itself could spawn an entire essay of explanation, so I'll try my best to condense the thoughts as much as possible. For some people erotic roleplay involving minors can be a completely harmless fantasy that has no consequences on children in real life. But the problem is that this is not so for ALL people involved in this kind of roleplay. And it is a matter of enabling and normalization of the content, not the content itself- So in other words, it is not synonymous with people roleplaying gratuitous violence and gore or other 'edgy' or 'dark' material, because that material does not shirk the negative effects of the actions, it revels in them.
So no, it is not just a matter of finding it 'icky'. I find inflation porn 'icky' but I don't judge those who participate in it so long as everyone involved consents. And no, it is not just happening behind closed doors. Despite ALL of this hubbub I said it before and I'll say it again- No one can force anyone to do anything. No one can force you to stop doing any kind of rp. No one can stop you from judging others. But the issue is that this material is no longer only happening behind closed doors between consenting parties. The fact that this has reached the point of people playing minors having to put 'NO ERP' in their search info or wikis is just ridiculous. We don't have to list 'no beastiality' or 'no bologna porn'. If you want to get pissed off at anyone, get pissed off at other people involved in that kind of rp that have been wantonly foisting it on others, thus resulting in this thread.Â
*I say majority because there are indeed countries in which the age of consent is 19, or 20 depending on situation (Though both countries allow sex with 15 year olds depending on gender and martial status with the other party).
RE: PSA: If You Want to Romance RP, Don't Make Your Character A Minor. - Kailia - 11-11-2014
(11-11-2014, 03:08 PM)FreelanceWizard Wrote: Just a brief mod note here. I would prefer if people not say things on this thread that could get a subpoena floated my way.
Please tread carefully and continue to remain nice.
EDIT: For reference, because of how we're hosted, the RPC is governed by the laws and jurisprudence of Tennessee, Virginia, California, and the United States.
#magicAdminHat
No problem, I only stated what my own character has been through in some of the RP threads on this site, and in game, and my views that works of fiction, don't make sense if real world law starts going after works of fiction.
Only thing I do agree on is that knowing someone is a minor in real life, and still engaging in ERP with them, is definitely wrong and illegal and I can understand the law going after people like that.