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+--- Thread: Lore Reasons:White Mage? (/showthread.php?tid=10545)
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - V'aleera - 03-16-2015
Quietly ignoring something you don't like is not as fun or as ego-stroking as making sure someone who does something you don't like knows how wrong and stupid they are.
I have no horse (or chocobo, as the case may be) in the PC WHM race, but as the proud player of an Ishgardian Miqo'te I've dealt (and deal) with pretty much the same type, degree, and volume of bullshit WHM players do. It gets old after a while.
This community would improve significantly if people actually fulfilled their promises to ignore and not interact with people whose ideas they don't agree with. But again, you can't make sure someone knows how right you are if you're ignoring them.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Gone. - 03-16-2015
I'm not even going to get involved with the rest of the clusterfuck this thread has become other than say the only two reasons I came to defend WHM roleplay were:
A. To make sure that someone new like Heart Quintessence is not dissuaded from a concept they may be interested over a handful of exclusionary, literal-minded roleplayers they'll never actually bump into in-game.
B. I am confident in the direction I've gone and feel that I've done nothing to break what information has been given to me in-game.
For the record, I'm not offended, either. Disappointed in parts of the community around me would, however, be another story.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Kellach Woods - 03-16-2015
(03-15-2015, 09:51 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: 1 - Non-Padjal shouldn't even know what White Magic is, much less that it exists. It's a closely guarded secret known only to like six families in the entire world, and they're all inside the Twelveswood living in the Woods, not even living in Gridania. And it's not something you're born with unless you're Padjal, in which case you belong to a race specifically created by the Elementals to host and protect Succor.
2 - Elementals literally flooded the world and grew up an entire forest (and a giant friggin tree) around Amdapor to keep people out and didn't let anyone into the forest for 1,000 years. Just to keep mankind from discovering Amdapor existed.
3 - One Elemental very slowly decides that the Player Character is good enough to represent all of Mankind, meanwhile, the other Great Ones decide that it's high time to destroy the world again.
4 - You have five years since the Calamity to find a reason to become a White Mage and dedicate yourself to healing the Wood and Eorzea (if you're so inclined to leave the Twelveswood after the Elementals gave you a great gift.) To me, after the Calamity greatly weakened the Elementals and laid waste to the Twelveswood, I can see the Elementals bestowing the knowledge of Succor on worthy few to help aid the limited number of Padjal and Hearers restore the forest. It makes the most sense. Or you can sneak into Amdapor post-Calamity and steal away with a White Mage soulstone and deviantly begin learning its secrets. Either works within lore.
Just gonna address the points... point-by-point since this is pretty much the only post of any value in the thread. Keep in mind these are mostly questions to Sounsyy but if you've got an answer that isn't snark go right ahead.
1 - Wouldn't a scholar studying the War of the Magi at least know of some things about Amdapor, or was that somehow erased from every single recorded history possible and would require an archaeologist character of some renown? I understand there is already, canonically, a book detailing the War of the Magi (that you conveniently deliver to Gerolt as part of the Omnilex relic quest) so wouldn't anyone who has read that and knows of conjury would at least realize that there's something not quite right?
2 - Here's where I don't get it - Wouldn't they do that to Vylbrand as well considering that's where WP is situated? Also, from the way it was worded in the Job Quest, it felt like the Elementals granted White Magic to those they deemed worthy. As such, why cover Amdapor?
3 - That's 1.0 stuff I imagine, since 2.0 is pretty much A-Towa-Cant loves you THIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIS much. An interesting point here is that we do not know how the Elementals operate. We know that remove (read : kill) any threat to the forest almost automatically, but do we know their decision process for determining who is worthy? Are we talking someone who will heal the forest (and other people) indiscriminately, as well as calm the elements (which is essentially what you're doing in 2.0)?
4 - That's certainly nefarious means if a way to extract the soul's knowledge from the Soulstone can be found. If there's anything like that, I'd wager it's Ascian related and chances are if people aren't gonna accept a PC WHM they're not gonna accept a PC WHM who got the job because of the Ascians.
Also, the Calamity was powerful enough to literally change the landscape of Eorzea - who's to say Amdapor is the only place these soulstones can be found considering how much damage such an impact would have. Assuming there are more than one, of course, I'd say perhaps one or two could be found at the Burning Wall in Eastern Thanalan. Or fished up there.
I can't see the Elementals bestowing Succor on even a select group of people. I honestly don't think they have the power to straight up do that anymore - Whatever you learn of Succor and the practical applications in the Quieting in 2.0 comes from the soulstone, and even earlier it takes quite the commotion for an Elemental to show up. Other than in CNJ quest nary an Elemental is to be seen and considering East Shroud we should be seeing at least 3-4 in between Ramuh, Moggle Mog and the Garleans.
Most of this is from interpretation of what's omitted in the quests so I could be totally wrong.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Cato - 03-16-2015
At the end of the day if someone is going to deliberately ignore the established lore in favour of doing whatever they like then they're perfectly free to do just that.
It does not mean that they're immune to criticism from other role-players. They may not like being viewed negatively but that sort of comes with the territory.
If I declared Graeham to be Thancred's boyfriend or something equally bizarre then I'd fully expect other role-players to call me out on that.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - ArmachiA - 03-16-2015
When the lore team says "There's only one WHM." That's not really interpretation. They flat out said it, so I'm going by their word. Yeah they said their are other ways, but didn't say what or that anyone had even tried to use them. According to Word of God, there's one. The WoL went (or the Lalafell place holder if your WoL went another job) . So unless the WHMs Players want to fight it out who that WHM is, I'll just rp that there is just one WHM NPC somewhere over here in the corner.
And that's what I choose to follow.
When they open it up, I'll change my mind.
It's not really outrageous.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - V'aleera - 03-16-2015
(03-16-2015, 01:27 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: When the lore team says "There's only one WHM."Well it's a good thing that's not what they've said.
The quote by Ferne has been linked repeatedly in this thread: alternative means of becoming a WHM do presently exist. We may not know OOCly what those specifically are, but their existence creates a grey area that people are well within their right to exploit (at their own peril of that information being elaborated on to their detriment, of course).
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Flickering Ember - 03-16-2015
(03-16-2015, 01:27 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: When the lore team says "There's only one WHM." That's not really interpretation.
Quote:Has there been a revival of white magic or is your PC the only person learning white magic outside of their school? A.) If everyone was the WoL, no one gets to have a sense of being the hero. “YOU.†There are other ways to get white magic. Through deviant means and might show up in the future.
Here is the quote again. No where in there do they say verbatim "There's only one WHM." There is a lot of room for interpretation.
Here's my interpretation, for example:
"For story purposes, you are the only one who knows white magic. Outside of that main white mage story, there are other possible ways to become a white mage that already exist. We just haven't created them/written them/put them into lore yet."
"There's only one WHM" could be a possible interpretation but it is still an interpretation and not necessarily anymore right than anyone else's.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Yssen - 03-16-2015
The lore team has also said that there is only one WoL (YOU!), but also many WoL in existence as well. The point somewhat open to interpretation, not that I am saying yours in the wrong way to go.Â
The lore also supports that the Elementals and the Padjal are not the end all be all of who gets to be a WHM, that there were WHMs before the Elementals were in power, and that there can be again. We just do not know the exact details of how.
Which is more correct? Which thing should we adopt? No one has claim and everyone has claim. All can be seen as equally valid. Yar.
EDIT - It has also been implied and shown several times since 1.0 that the Padjal and the Gridanians do not understand or are being outright deceptive about the nature and motives of the Elementals. We do know from lore that the Elementals are not the end all ever eternal power of the Shroud that they would have us believe.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Cato - 03-16-2015
You can criticise poorly thought out role-playing practices and not lose any sleep over it. I feel as though some people in this community are too quick to assume that someone is spending a lot of time worrying what other role-players are doing when in reality they only bring up criticism in threads such as this when it's directly relevant to a discussion.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - ArmachiA - 03-16-2015
(03-16-2015, 01:53 AM)Graeham Ridgefield Wrote: You can criticise poorly thought out role-playing practices and not lose any sleep over it. I feel as though some people in this community are too quick to assume that someone is spending a lot of time worrying what other role-players are doing when in reality they only bring up criticism in threads such as this when it's directly relevant to a discussion.
This is me.
To me, this is a discussion, nothing more.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Sounsyy - 03-16-2015
(03-16-2015, 12:13 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: As long as this doesn't turn into harassment or a big unneeded fight.... whats the problem?
Problem is... any useful contribution to this thread ended on page 4 and the next five pages were filled with harassment and big unneeded fighting.
So getting back on topic, which is White Mages and their lore...
(03-16-2015, 12:18 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: 1 - Wouldn't a scholar studying the War of the Magi at least know of some things about Amdapor, or was that somehow erased from every single recorded history possible and would require an archaeologist character of some renown? I understand there is already, canonically, a book detailing the War of the Magi (that you conveniently deliver to Gerolt as part of the Omnilex relic quest) so wouldn't anyone who has read that and knows of conjury would at least realize that there's something not quite right?
A scholar studying the War of the Magi may very well know of the existence of White Mages during the Fifth Astral Era. There are a few tomes on the subject which survived the Great Flood which wiped out most everyone. The Relic Quest book is one, and there's also a couple tomes that High Priest Mumuepo collected on the subject in the Order of Nald'thal's library. Though I'm sure those tomes focus more on the Black Magic side of things. The first problem with this is that most Eorzeans can't read, and what's more, these ancient tomes may or may not be written in Common Eorzean.
But what you have to remember is that according to these tomes, White Magic was wiped out 1,600 years ago and it's return 500 years ago was a very closely guarded secret, limited to a small number of Padjal. It was never made public and it was never recorded. We know of six Padjali families so far. There may be more.
Also remember that Gridania was a completely isolationist nation until just 100 years ago. They didn't allow any outsiders into the Wood for fear of breaking the Pact of Gelmorra. It wasn't until Ala Mhigo crossed the Velodyna River into the Shroud, sparking the Autumn War that forced Gridania to eventually allow other nations into the Shroud. Ishgard, not wanting to lose the natural protection the Twelveswood offered their southern and eastern borders, made a deal with Ul'dah and Limsa, basically saying "If you help repel Ala Mhigo, we'll make sure trade opens up between your nations and ours." Ul'dah and Limsa, two nations never known to pass up free gil, accepted the terms and because Gridania was on the verge of defeat, was begrudgingly forced to accept.
So now picture this: You have a nation that for 400 years (and 1000 years before that) had a symbiotic relationship solely with the Elementals and the Forest, relying completely on it for their livelihoods, but is suddenly open to outsiders who have never even heard of Elementals, Gelmorra, and pretty much think you're nuts for believing in such superstitions. Well... come to think of it, all we know about the Elementals is what the Hearers and the Padjal tell us. I've never seen an Elemental either. Maybe they don't exist. And after 100 years of this, suddenly you have Gridanians who don't believe in the Elementals. Now... if you don't believe the Elementals exist... are you going to believe that their magic exists? Nearly 1,600 years have come and gone without any exposure to Elementals, Moogles, White Magic, or Padjal and 99% of the outside world has forgotten about the existence of the War of the Magi. Hell, six Arbiters of Truth completely covered up the true history of how Sil'dih was destroyed by Ul'dah and that only happened 400 years ago AND the Ul'dahns built their city on top of Sil'dih's ruins!
So yes, there's probably a handful of scholars who know that White Mages existed 1,600 years ago during the War of the Magi, but probably only 6-10 Padjali family trees know it still exists today.
(03-16-2015, 12:18 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: 2 - Here's where I don't get it - Wouldn't they do that to Vylbrand as well considering that's where WP is situated? Also, from the way it was worded in the Job Quest, it felt like the Elementals granted White Magic to those they deemed worthy. As such, why cover Amdapor?
Ancient Nymian Scholars used Arcanima and envoked Succor through their Fae companions. In the recent Las Vegas Lore Panel, it was announced that the Fae are closely related to the Elementals, but are a lesser elemental. Furthormore, after the War of the Magi and the resulting Umbral Calamity, Nym fell victim to a plague which warped their bodies and struck from them their ability to commune with their fairy companions, effectively disconnecting them from their succor. So... in a way... something very similar happened. The ruins of Nym were eventually swallowed beneath volcanic sand and the waters of Bronze Lake. It wasn't until the Calamity that shattered the island that a piece of Vylbrand broke away, revealing the ruins beneath the lake.
As for why cover Amdapor... probably in case some nefarious entity attempted to control succor using "deviant" or "nefarious" means... /cough. But quote in spoiler above answers that also.
(03-16-2015, 12:18 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: 3 - do we know their decision process for determining who is worthy? Are we talking someone who will heal the forest (and other people) indiscriminately, as well as calm the elements (which is essentially what you're doing in 2.0)?
Yeah, 1.0 stuff. Watch vids below! ^^
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Tiergan - 03-16-2015
I have to be honest in that I don't really understand the level of animosity being sent ArmachiA's way. Personally, I don't get too bent out of shape when someone's character claims to be a white mage and will continue RPing with them. (Provided they are RPed with an appropriate level of weight and not simply "I became a WHM prodigy at the tender age of 17 after becoming BFFs with the Padjal.") Thus, I may not agree with ArmachiA and others 100% on all of their opinions in this thread.
That said -- this is literally a thread where someone invited others to inform and discuss with them about the details of WHM lore. This means we will naturally get conflicting opinions on things and just like many of you have a right to assert that there IS a viable and lore-friendly way to RP White Mages -- other people also have the right to assert that they strongly feel it utterly breaks the lore and they're not comfortable with it.
Additionally, while I can't say the same for every person in this thread - ArmachiA specifically went out of her way to say that people are free to RP how they like. Simply stating "I don't think WHMs can RPed while also being adherent to the lore and I believe in adhering to the lore" shouldn't be a source of animosity - especially when there were no insults being tossed about. So long as no one is acting like a flagrant jerk, I like to think we're all mature enough as a community to disagree with one another without resorting to snipes or anger.
I think the best way to sum up this thread is that there is a considerable amount of lore, and word from the developers, that make a sizable chunk of the community uncomfortable with the idea of White Mage RP. However, there is also a sizable chunk of the community who feels that the lore does provide enough grey area for people to create White Mage characters, along with word from the developers that there might be alternative ways for people to become WHM in the future. Everyone should examine the different perspectives - come to an understanding that they may not get to RP with every single person in the community because we all have different tastes and some may not be comfortable with what you decide - and choose the path that best suits what they would like to do when it comes to White Mages and RP.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Yssen - 03-16-2015
(03-16-2015, 01:44 AM)Flashhelix Wrote: Man I can just think of how great the community would be if everybody exploited grey areas:
"The devs haven't said that laser eyes are impossible"
"I've yet to see anything in lore saying eorzeans don't have the power of flight"
"Since when has the lore team said that my character can't bring trees to life with his mind"
You may be making a little too broad a statement here. While exploiting grey areas should not be used to break what is conventional accepted to be so but not explicitly stated in lore is true. it is not the same thing as adapting the grey areas of "we don't know" to justify something like being a PC WHM. Apples to Oranges in terms of degrees. In short, someone who is looking at the lore and trying to figure out what is justifiable in terms of their character, should not be compared to someone who wants to defy all convention. They are not the same thing.
Also, what would be the issue with a short burst of flight being the thematic for someone's Aetherial Manipulation, or laser eyes being a thematic for someone's Fire spell?
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Tiergan - 03-16-2015
I am super guilty of exploiting "grey area" simply because as expansive as SE's lore is, there are a lot of bizaare gaps of information that desperately need to be filled. (Please for the sweet love of god, give me more Duskwight culture lore, SE! I need something more to go one than "Lives in caves. Usually become or are stereotyped as huge dickish bandits.")
However, when it comes to playing with grey areas, I like to go with things that are similar to or may even already have a precedence to something already in the lore. There is nothing in the lore that states there is a crazed Ifrit Worshiping (oddly non-Tempered!) Cult somewhere out in Southern Thanalan, but I doubt anyone would think it's lore-breaking for something like that to exist in RP because of things like the Lambs of Dalamud.
There may not explicitly be lore that states long ago a woman who revered Siren (or the sirens?) once cast a spell upon an entire settlement and led away all males living within it to be sacrificed by the sea in her name -- but it could have happened.
If someone announced that their excavation team discovered a strange set of ruins deep within [x], location that seems to have a strange aether signature pulsing within it -- it may not be explicitly mentioned in the lore, but the game has so many dang ruins from so many lost civilizations, that I wouldn't bat an eye.
It's the plausible vs the improbable.
If something is plausible and has aspects that are similar to things already existing in the setting, I feel more people are willing to bend and roll with it.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - ArmachiA - 03-16-2015
^
I lore bend to hell and back, but it's always discussed with a counsel of peers as to whether or not its even probable. We are never going to know everything, obviously.