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+--- Thread: Regarding Dark Knight... (/showthread.php?tid=10956)
RE: Regarding Dark Knight... - Khadan - 04-07-2015
(04-07-2015, 08:10 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:(04-07-2015, 08:07 AM)Aaron Wrote: In the end, im really just waiting for what happens after every new class exists for a while.
Everyone is one for the beginning. Couple months later they slowly (well majority) go back to other classes (like the Nin influx)
I also honestly don't expect a lotta people to have DRK for long. From my experience of getting asked to "tank this dungeon because I hate tanking" I expect the majority to get sick of tanking and the hassle of trying to out aggro ballsy dps.
In popularity, I believe of the 3 classes DRK will be the least popular and MCH the most.
This can be abbreviated thusly:
(04-07-2015, 08:07 AM)Aaron Wrote: In popularity, I believe of the 3 classes TANK will be the least popular and DPS the most.
It's the classic issue with Holy Trinity design: People are intimidated by tanking roles and while they might level it, they won't be using it.
Gosh I see tank classes and beeline for them like a fat kid passing the candy aisle. Though I'm hesitating with Dark Knight. Doesn't really feel so innovative to me since we already have a two-handed big-weapon-wielding-tank in the Warrior. I would have preferred to see something that was a bit different. That and my experience with Death Knights means that Paladins and Warriors will finally find common ground in tanking: hatred of Dark Knights. XD
RE: Regarding Dark Knight... - Gegenji - 04-07-2015
(04-07-2015, 01:02 PM)Kayllen Wrote: Gosh I see tank classes and beeline for them like a fat kid passing the candy aisle.
I... just like being useful. v
vI tend to lean towards healing classes more than tanks, though, if given the chance. Especially in new content, since it's usually just a matter of spamming heals at people to keep them off the floor. Once I actually know the fights and whatnot, I feel more comfortable taking up the tanking role - which I usually get to do since I run stuff with Gogon (SCH) first before doing them with Chachan (PLD).
... I tend to just queue up as DPS when I'm feeling lazy or I want to try and knock out some other stuff in the wait, like Ixal dailies.
Judge going DRK will effectively be Chachan 2.0 in that regard - I'll have cleared the stuff with BOTH Gogon and Chachan at that point... so when I get there with him, I should hopefully know it well enough to get through without any problems. Party badness notwithstanding.
RE: Regarding Dark Knight... - Khadan - 04-07-2015
(04-07-2015, 01:06 PM)Gegenji Wrote:(04-07-2015, 01:02 PM)Kayllen Wrote: Gosh I see tank classes and beeline for them like a fat kid passing the candy aisle.
I... just like being useful. v
I tend to lean towards healing classes more than tanks, though, if given the chance. Especially in new content, since it's usually just a matter of spamming heals at people to keep them off the floor. Once I actually know the fights and whatnot, I feel more comfortable taking up the tanking role - which I usually get to do since I run stuff with Gogon (SCH) first before doing them with Chachan (PLD).
... I tend to just queue up as DPS when I'm feeling lazy or I want to try and knock out some other stuff in the wait, like Ixal dailies.
Judge going DRK will effectively be Chachan 2.0 in that regard - I'll have cleared the stuff with BOTH Gogon and Chachan at that point... so when I get there with him, I should hopefully know it well enough to get through without any problems. Party badness notwithstanding.
Play style choice for me. It helps that I'm pretty damn good at it, too lol.Â
RE: Regarding Dark Knight... - Aaron - 04-07-2015
Tanking is the best damn job in the game.
I'm keeping you all alive! If you allow me to die you die too!Â
Heuhuehuehuheuheu
Plus that feeling when people /ask/ if you'll pull everything for a full run. Never gets old.
I should be a healer but I feel no one would trust me as the parties healer. With good reason too.
RE: Regarding Dark Knight... - Warren Castille - 04-07-2015
I should clarify: I'm referring to the idea that DRK will create a net gain of new tanks somehow. I realize now that wasn't exactly the discussion.
People who like to tank like to tank, but it does take a very tailored sort of attitude to be okay with 1) potentially wasting people's time when you do something wrong and everyone dies and 2) being able to tolerate the implied verbal abuse that comes when you make those mistakes.
Fear of being called out and harassed is the biggest problem potential new tanks face, and "we" do it "ourselves." It's that sort of thing that makes folks who are intimidated by the notion and then do it anyway stand out that much more. Steel Wolf comes to mind.
Sorry for the derail.
RE: Regarding Dark Knight... - Cynel1 - 04-07-2015
its Temping for Cyneler when he goes to Ishgard to Fall into Darkness Basically RP a Reverse Cecil Story but i still don't know.
RE: Regarding Dark Knight... - Telluride - 04-07-2015
(EDIT - this was typed out on a horrible laptop keyboard, so forgive the poor typing)
The thing is, tanking in FFXIV is objectively more challenging than in most other games I have played.
Rift? I loved my Reaver-Tank build (which is pretty much what DRK is sounding like). It worked and was fun to play.
LOTRO? I didn't raid with my hobbit Guardian, but again, it was a fun role and it worked.
AoC? I had a Dark Templar, and enjoyed playing it as far as I did. I never had trouble holding aggro; I quit playing the class for RP reasons only.
SWTOR? I tanked Hard Mode Flashpoints routinely with my Shieldtech Bounty Hunter. The RAIDS were a major challenge for tanks, with lots of tank-swapping, but outside of those? No problem.
FFXIV seems to make tanking much harder than any of those games did. I have had much more trouble holding aggro tanking in this one than in any other.
But I don't think it's strictly the fault of the tanks, since FFXIV, in my experience, is designed to pull aggro OFF of tanks more so than any of those other games, as far as I've gotten.
FFXIV's dps classes strongly lack an Aggro Dump, for one problem. Quelling Strikes, for example, reduces GENERATION of Aggro, but does not seem to reduce the existing level. DRG and MNK do not have a good aggro dump, nor do the healing classes, compared to many other mmos, in which many classes do have something more to help reduce aggro, even if it is a panic button.
The result is that at least 90% of aggro management in FFXIV, in my limited experience, rests on the shoulders of the tanks, so much so that they have to fight not just healer and dps, but very often each other.
If we want to see more people be comfortable playing TANKS, perhaps SE ought to give more hate management skills to EVERY OTHER CLASS so that dungeons become more a cooperative effort than wondering "can the tank hold hate?"
And yes, I consider this very much on topic, related to the posts above. I can't blame anyone for not wanting to be a tank, hence not a DRK, until the FFXIV hate system stops demanding so much of the role and spreads the active ability to manage hate to other classes.
So, yes, I respect people who enjoy tanking and can do it well. SE admits openly that tanking IS more of a challenge by the tacit addition of extra xp and seals for Tanks in duty finder. A more balanced system wouldn't need so much extra enticement. We all want more tanks because holding hate in FFXIV is a challenge, and I agree with others that a lot of DRKs are going to get ditched at 50 unless roles find more balancing in Heavenward.
So, what do we need? Maybe a hate-reducing song for bards (Quelling strikes is NOT a panic button and can't be used that way), a quick aggro-dump for healers (long recharge is ok), and a bodyguard sort of skill, like other games have, that allow Tanks to pick a troublesome party-mate and absorb more hate from them.
Give us these, you'll see more people willing to take up the Greatsword and KEEP it. But otherwise, I can't see Heavensward affecting the overall tank population percentage past, oh, two months. Because shotguns are just as cool as swords.
RE: Regarding Dark Knight... - Chris Ganale - 04-07-2015
Bounty hunter's countermeasures in TOR was the best thing ever. \o/
RE: Regarding Dark Knight... - Kellach Woods - 04-07-2015
(04-07-2015, 08:30 PM)Telluride Wrote: So, yes, I respect people who enjoy tanking and can do it well. SE admits openly that tanking IS more of a challenge by the tacit addition of extra xp and seals for Tanks in duty finder. A more balanced system wouldn't need so much extra enticement. We all want more tanks because holding hate in FFXIV is a challenge, and I agree with others that a lot of DRKs are going to get ditched at 50 unless roles find more balancing in Heavenward.
So, what do we need? Â Maybe a hate-reducing song for bards (Quelling strikes is NOT a panic button and can't be used that way), a quick aggro-dump for healers (long recharge is ok), and a bodyguard sort of skill, like other games have, that allow Tanks to pick a troublesome party-mate and absorb more hate from them.
1) They give the bonus to whoever isn't queuing as much - Tanks is quasi universal because a lot of them just don't queue since they have proper groups. If I hadn't found my niche in Warrior I wouldn't be tanking. It's not Square deciding it, it's the system they built basing itself on the playerbase deciding that tank isn't a fun role to play.
Yes, I have actually seen DPS bonus by the by.
2) You can manage your aggro as DPS/Healer, it's called not being a dumbass. Threat management is as much your responsibility as it is the Tank's to build it as much as possible. Same as when you pull off from the Tank, it's your responsibility to manage it properly so it is guided right into his arms. Ideally by running towards him, stopping DPS for a bit or limiting enough that he can do something. With the mechanics in this game and equivalent weaponry, threat should be manageable by all.
PLDs have Cover. WHM has Shroud of Saints (yes it works as an aggro dump but most will use it for MP regen). DRG has Elusive Jump (it dumps aggro at the cost of leaving melee range which isn't a problem for DRG because Spineshatter/Dragonfire). Quelling Strikes isn't as good because it can be cross-classed into SMN/BLM and cross-class skills tend to suck compared to equivalent class-related skills. There's a reason why you have talents that make them much better on the parent class.
Releasing DRK as a Tank class won't make the tank population soar up - but maybe more people will find their niche playing the class and you'll get a slight increase in tanks. That's their plan by tying it into the only class they're releasing that has been in a FF before, is one of the most iconic classes in FF, and by having it tank differently than the other two.
RE: Regarding Dark Knight... - Aaron - 04-08-2015
At least they realized not every new class should be dps.
I used to get annoyed with people complaining DRK wasn't dps when they had JUST GOT NIN and had MCH coming along DRK.
Like seriously? Are you that needy?
RE: Regarding Dark Knight... - Kellach Woods - 04-08-2015
Eh, DRK has always been a high-damage class historically. I can understand the disappointment. Especially since it'll have to eschew the traditional sacrifice HP to deal moar damage mechanic of games past.
RE: Regarding Dark Knight... - Warren Castille - 04-08-2015
(04-07-2015, 11:31 PM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Threat management is as much your responsibility as it is the Tank's to build it as much as possible.
This this this this this. I don't want to bang on the "I blame WoW!" drum but in this instance, I do. Tanking in WoW (especially in recent years) was just "spam this threat ability" with no real worry or management or concerns. It's lazy implementation that teaches DPS to immediately blow everything on anything, and it's not YOUR fault that the tank isn't in his 8000% threat stance spamming his 12000% threat generator.
Quote:PLDs have Cover. WHM has Shroud of Saints (yes it works as an aggro dump but most will use it for MP regen). DRG has Elusive Jump (it dumps aggro at the cost of leaving melee range which isn't a problem for DRG because Spineshatter/Dragonfire). Quelling Strikes isn't as good because it can be cross-classed into SMN/BLM and cross-class skills tend to suck compared to equivalent class-related skills. There's a reason why you have talents that make them much better on the parent class.
Cover will only help if the person being covered is aware of that fact. It doesn't affect enmity at all, either: Someone who took hate because they outpaced the tank will continue to outpace the tank if they don't throttle back. Cover just keeps them from being immediately eaten. Shroud is a nice immediate dump if it's needed. Most 1-2-3 DRGs won't use Elusive because "lel it duz no dmg."
Quelling is good, but requires a lot of investment for a cross-class skill especially if you aren't going to be leveling BRD. It also requires some foresight to use if you're not just hitting it before starting big AoE or something.
RE: Regarding Dark Knight... - Kellach Woods - 04-08-2015
That was in response to the other point actually - in that those abilities do exist (since he was talking about a bodyguard ability I included Cover in there) for certain classes.
Elusive Jump also allows you to back the fuck out of an AoE faster than strafing away AND drops aggro AND sets you up for returning to the fray with Dragonfire Dive.
RE: Regarding Dark Knight... - Warren Castille - 04-08-2015
(04-08-2015, 08:04 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: That was in response to the other point actually - in that those abilities do exist (since he was talking about a bodyguard ability I included Cover in there) for certain classes.
Elusive Jump also allows you to back the fuck out of an AoE faster than strafing away AND drops aggro AND sets you up for returning to the fray with Dragonfire Dive.
Roger roger. Small note about how stupidly designed Elusive is, though: You don't "travel" until the animation ends, so it can't actually be used to dodge AoE.
An aside regarding DRK's role as a damage dealer historically:
In single player FF games featuring the class, it's a damage dealer because everything has to be otherwise it sucks. Of course the main character class is going to have high health and damage and ability - We'd despise them as a main character otherwise. Aeris in FF7 does horrific horribad melee damage when you meet her - double digits, we're talking - and her only real "use" is that she's a mage... In a game where everyone can equip every spell to basically the same extent and effect. She'd never work as the "main" character because she'd be immediately outclassed by everyone you meet.
FFXI, the only other online FF in this vein, featured DRK as a DPS. If you ignore blink-tanking for a moment, DRK is actually AS MUCH OF if not MORE of a tank than PLD is! XI threat was completely fucked for a long long time - Provoke was a warrior-only ability and worked as a threat-spike in XI, not as a taunt like it does in XIV. This meant that every tank HAD to use warrior as their subclass, and all other enmity was generated through 1) damage and 2) healing. MP on a paladin? Not exactly very high. They could cast big heals maybe once or twice every couple of fights, but DRK could use heavier weapons to greater effect and actually hold threat that way.
Ninja blink-tanking completely "ruined" the established concepts (and by "ruined" we meant "helped a lot, because XI was fucked conventionally).
Grognard edit:
![[Image: Mustadio.jpg]](http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100705233134/finalfantasy/images/e/e3/Mustadio.jpg)
RE: Regarding Dark Knight... - Cynel1 - 04-08-2015
well i see Dark knight as a Corrupted Paladin it would be Tempting for a Paladin to Fall into Darkness AKA do a Reverse Cecil.