Hydaelyn Role-Players
Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - Printable Version

+- Hydaelyn Role-Players (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18)
+-- Forum: Community (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=8)
+--- Forum: RP Discussion (https://ffxiv-roleplayers.com/mybb18/forumdisplay.php?fid=13)
+--- Thread: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A (/showthread.php?tid=11951)

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

RE: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - FreelanceWizard - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 06:37 AM)Sin Wrote: Does anyone have some lore evidence of the Elementals turning off Succor like a switch?

I believe Raya-O-Senna says something to this effect at the end of the level 30 WHM job quest -- something that's more or less, "if you abuse this power, the elementals will tear it away from you" -- but, IMO, we need to look at that through the lens of who's saying it and overall context of the quest. She could truly believe that, or she could mostly believe that but be trying to bully the Adventurer, who she doesn't like and doesn't trust.

To an earlier point, I don't think anyone here is saying the elementals are powerless (I'm certainly not), but it's repeatedly pointed out in 2.0's MSQ, side quests, and the world itself that the elementals are greatly diminished as a result of the Calamity. Powerless, no; significantly weakened so that they're not the terrifying threat of 1.0, seemingly yes. There's several good reasons why Succor is a rather unlikely thing for a person to have IC, but I've never felt the actions of the elementals were a particularly strong one with where the story currently is.

Oh, and the soul stones containing the memories, knowledge, and deeds of previous wielders is in their description in game. That part also factors into the SMN job quest, and to a lesser degree, the MNK and NIN ones. That doesn't mean the circumstances around that one specific soul stone in the WHM job quest line aren't different, particularly given the lore panel confirmation that the way the Adventurer becomes a White Mage is the one and only time that's happened, but in general, that's what soul stones do.

EDIT: The issues with the caster lore is why I usually recommend people phrase a mage character concept where the exact mechanism is important to their story as, "I (heal, create, summon, destroy, etc.) using practices rooted in the art of (thaumaturgy, conjury, arcanima)" and not get too worried about the exact classes and Jobs.

RE: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - TheLastCandle - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 07:17 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 10:31 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: What do you mean what does 1.0 have to do with 2.0? The Calamity was 1.0... does that mean it does not exist because it is now 2.0? I don't understand. This is the lore of the world as of five years ago. Just because every bit of 1.0 lore has not resurfaced immediately into 2.0 does not mean that it ceases to exist?

Much of 1.0 was officially retconned and dusted up under the rug. If it is not mention in 2.0, it's not of importance. If it does get mentioned, then sure, I'll change my mind, but until that point, it's an exercise in futility and expecting the community to know about it, much less actually give any thought or regard to matter, is frankly absurd. We can't play 1.0 anymore and SQX doesn't want us to remember it; there IS a reason 2.0 is so seamless in its presentation and this would be why.

Much of 1.0 was not officially retconned except for those things the developers have stated outright. I don't see why we're to assume that because a tidbit of previous lore hasn't come up in the course of the story (yet) that it's no longer fact. References to events that happened during quests in 1.0 are plentiful, especially for Legacy players, and most post-ARR players will miss them entirely unless they've done a little research or mind-melded with Sounsyy.

RE: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - Sin - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 07:17 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 10:31 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: What do you mean what does 1.0 have to do with 2.0? The Calamity was 1.0... does that mean it does not exist because it is now 2.0? I don't understand. This is the lore of the world as of five years ago. Just because every bit of 1.0 lore has not resurfaced immediately into 2.0 does not mean that it ceases to exist?

Much of 1.0 was officially retconned and dusted up under the rug. If it is not mention in 2.0, it's not of importance. If it does get mentioned, then sure, I'll change my mind, but until that point, it's an exercise in futility and expecting the community to know about it, much less actually give any thought or regard to matter, is frankly absurd. We can't play 1.0 anymore and SQX doesn't want us to remember it; there IS a reason 2.0 is so seamless in its presentation and this would be why.


I don't think much of 1.0 was officially retconned anymore than the original Warcrafts were retconned when World of Warcraft came out.

It's still the same world which makes everything in 1.0 canon until 2.0 states its not. Not the other way around.

(06-09-2015, 07:40 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 06:37 AM)Sin Wrote: Does anyone have some lore evidence of the Elementals turning off Succor like a switch?

I believe Raya-O-Senna says something to this effect at the end of the level 30 WHM job quest -- something that's more or less, "if you abuse this power, the elementals will tear it away from you" -- but, IMO, we need to look at that through the lens of who's saying it and overall context of the quest. She could truly believe that, or she could mostly believe that but be trying to bully the Adventurer, who she doesn't like and doesn't trust.

That's interesting. Hmmm, definitely could be a bit of fearmongering or ignorance. It could also be literal tearing... as in sending wood animals to tear out your heart.

RE: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - Aduu Avagnar - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 07:17 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote:
(06-08-2015, 10:31 PM)Sounsyy Wrote: What do you mean what does 1.0 have to do with 2.0? The Calamity was 1.0... does that mean it does not exist because it is now 2.0? I don't understand. This is the lore of the world as of five years ago. Just because every bit of 1.0 lore has not resurfaced immediately into 2.0 does not mean that it ceases to exist?

Much of 1.0 was officially retconned and dusted up under the rug. If it is not mention in 2.0, it's not of importance. If it does get mentioned, then sure, I'll change my mind, but until that point, it's an exercise in futility and expecting the community to know about it, much less actually give any thought or regard to matter, is frankly absurd. We can't play 1.0 anymore and SQX doesn't want us to remember it; there IS a reason 2.0 is so seamless in its presentation and this would be why.

(06-09-2015, 02:32 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Some Jobs actually use the Soul Crystal to pass on the knowledge of the skills involved in the Job (Scholar is, in a way, one of them, since the Soul Crystal carries the Fairy who bypasses the learning you'd otherwise have had to go through to master Scholar abilities).  White Mage is not one of them.  The Soul Crystal you receive during the quest doesn't have the knowledge of White Magic in it.  It simply marks you as A-Towa-Can'ts chosen heir and provides you with the in to learn Succor from the Seedseer siblings.

And it has been mentioned in-game.

Except that's not all you find out from Raya-O-Senna, and that's a tiny, tiny portion of the Lore surrounding White Magic and Amdapor.

That's why the PC holds up their soul crystal every time they learn a new skill, right? I mean, it happens every five levels regardless of which job you're playing as.

Please, show us where in-game with some screenshots.

(06-09-2015, 02:32 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: Except that's not all you find out from Raya-O-Senna, and that's a tiny, tiny portion of the Lore surrounding White Magic and Amdapor.

Once again, give us proof. I don't recall it at all and I've always paid a great deal of attention to job quests.

(06-09-2015, 02:32 AM)LiadansWhisper Wrote: I've never said you can't play a White Mage, dear.  You can play whatever you want.  I reserve the right to say, "Hey, that doesn't fit Lore."  If that pisses you off, I'm sorry, but it is the truth.  You have the power to do whatever you want in the game.  That is entirely your decision and absolutely no one else can tell you that you can't do something.  But we can disagree with you and point out that you are mistaken about the justifications you are making for your RP, from a Lore perspective.

I don't even play a white mage anymore, so why are you turning this on me?

And really? 'Dear'? Could you be any more flagrantly condescending?

You can disagree if you want, but please do us all a favor and bring something other than hearsay. Show me in the game where it's referred to, otherwise you're just arguing for the sake.

(06-09-2015, 02:49 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: And does every White Mage discussion have to devolve into "Why won't you play with me?" and get turned into a big ol fight over who's "elitist" and who's not?

Truth is, I don't want to RP with you, Liadan, Nako, etc. I find your collective approach to RP stifling, restrictive, patronizing and counter-intuitive to the experience at a base level and I will not tolerate anyone bullying a new player away from playing a classic Final Fantasy job that's been there from the very first game, not when there's a number of legitimate possibilities that make it plausible.

Heaven forbid we welcome people with open arms as opposed to shunning them for something completely and utterly inane. Treat people as we'd like to be treated, etc. Is that really so hard to understand?
no is bullying anyone against playing it, rather, we are choosing to say that, if we are incompatable, we reserve our right to not rp with someone. No one is policing RP, no one is saying not to RP what you want, just that we, personally do not see how it can work in lore.

And as I have always said, if you can make it work, in a feasible matter, then fine, lets do that shit. The only restriction I put on my rp is that the person I RP with has put in at least some effort to follow what is presented. If that means that I RP with less people, then fine, so be it.

Also, I don't remember reading anywhere about the lore from 1.0 being retconned. Please, present us with your proof on this.

RE: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - ArmachiA - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 07:40 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 06:37 AM)Sin Wrote: Does anyone have some lore evidence of the Elementals turning off Succor like a switch?

I believe Raya-O-Senna says something to this effect at the end of the level 30 WHM job quest -- something that's more or less, "if you abuse this power, the elementals will tear it away from you" -- but, IMO, we need to look at that through the lens of who's saying it and overall context of the quest. She could truly believe that, or she could mostly believe that but be trying to bully the Adventurer, who she doesn't like and doesn't trust.
That's what I'm referring to yeah. It could be a case of unreliable narrator, which is fine, but it makes sense to me that if the Elementals can gift it, they can surely take it away. We know the Padjal can use the Succor only because the Elementals say they can - what we don't know is if there's a way to get around the Elementals for that. For this, I prefer to be safe until the devs tell us otherwise.

(06-09-2015, 07:17 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Truth is, I don't want to RP with you, Liadan, Nako, etc. I find your collective approach to RP stifling, restrictive, patronizing and counter-intuitive to the experience at a base level and I will not tolerate anyone bullying a new player away from playing a classic Final Fantasy job that's been there from the very first game, not when there's a number of legitimate possibilities that make it plausible.

Heaven forbid we welcome people with open arms as opposed to shunning them for something completely and utterly inane. Treat people as we'd like to be treated, etc. Is that really so hard to understand?
That's not bullying. If you think preferences are bullying then I don't know what to tell you.

I don't think I've ever harassed anyone nor made any newcomer feel unwelcome. I run a guild, a very large guild, and so you know how many people have gotten mad when I say we don't allow IC WHMs at this time? Zero. Even new players don't care that much. I explain the lore, they shrug and ask if they can still heal and I say yeah, because Conjury does the job 99% of the time.

There is a huge difference between "These are the rules that we follow" and "You are forced to follow my rules even if you don't play in my sandbox." The irony of this whole thing is you are being completely intolerant of the views of those who want to follow lore, while spouting that we are being intolerant by letting you play whatever you want.

RE: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - Kage - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 01:36 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: but it makes sense to me that if the Elementals can gift it, they can surely take it away. We know the Padjal can use the Succor only because the Elementals say they can - what we don't know is if there's a way to get around the Elementals for that. For this, I prefer to be safe until the devs tell us otherwise.
Wouldn't the Elementals have taken Succor away though, if they could have instead of the big flood? Granted the WHM were only half of the situation but they were still 50% causing the "end".

RE: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - Coatleque - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 07:17 AM)hauntmedoitagain Wrote: Treat people as we'd like to be treated, etc. Is that really so hard to understand?

If I was coming into a pre-existing community built around a game world that was created with clearly defined backstory/lore, I would be eager to learn the "rules" of the world I was about to play, and would hope someone would immediately tell me if I was about to shit in their cereal. That is how I would want to be treated. It's called common courtesy.

RE: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - Nadine Marteau - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 07:40 AM)FreelanceWizard Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 06:37 AM)Sin Wrote: Does anyone have some lore evidence of the Elementals turning off Succor like a switch?

EDIT: The issues with the caster lore is why I usually recommend people phrase a mage character concept where the exact mechanism is important to their story as, "I (heal, create, summon, destroy, etc.) using practices rooted in the art of (thaumaturgy, conjury, arcanima)" and not get too worried about the exact classes and Jobs.

Honestly it's pretty lame that mages can't be their jobs most times, as this is a Final Fantasy game and jobs are super iconic.  I wish they found a way to work that into the lore. It's honestly a part of why I changed my main from someone who RPs being a caster.

RE: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - ArmachiA - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 01:41 PM)Kage Wrote:
(06-09-2015, 01:36 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: but it makes sense to me that if the Elementals can gift it, they can surely take it away. We know the Padjal can use the Succor only because the Elementals say they can - what we don't know is if there's a way to get around the Elementals for that. For this, I prefer to be safe until the devs tell us otherwise.
Wouldn't the Elementals have taken Succor away though, if they could have instead of the big flood? Granted the WHM were only half of the situation but they were still 50% causing the "end".
To me, the big flood felt more like a punishment for abusing the Succor more than a "We need to get them to stop using it" BUT even if that is the only way they can get rid of someone abusing the Succor (By killing them or whatever) it's still a way to turn off the switch. Probably... not as much currently since they don't have as much power. The problem is, we aren't really sure how much power we do and don't have right now, which is an issue. They could be stealth killing abusers or telling hearers to stealth kill abusers and we would never know.

(Again I say "to me", as this is just my opinion and only mine. In fact the whole "I believe the Elementals can take away the use of Succor." doesn't really factor into my guild running since there isn't enough evidence to set a rule on that - though some people believe as I do and did a storyline around it. Just a disclaimer)

(06-09-2015, 01:41 PM)Coatleque Wrote: If I was coming into a pre-existing community built around a game world that was created with clearly defined backstory/lore, I would be eager to learn the "rules" of the world I was about to play, and would hope someone would immediately tell me if I was about to shit in their cereal. That is how I would want to be treated. It's called common courtesy.

/anecdotal evidence: most new players who come into my guild are really happy that we're willing to sit down with them for hours at a time and discuss lore to make sure they are within the boundaries of it and make sure that their character is exactly how they want it to be while being lore appropriate. Most newcomers don't know lore or really where to get it, they usually just build a character of what they assume and are pretty grateful when we work with them to smooth out their story. Sure it takes time, but most - if not all - have been grateful for us to teach them instead of ignoring them and letting them do whatever.

RE: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - V'aleera - 06-09-2015

Right, killing White Mages does accomplish the goal of "taking back" Succor but that's a little beside the point; by that logic anyone can "take back" Succor. The point remains that the Elementals have not been shown to have anything more than above average killing power and sheer numbers. They certainly haven't been shown, anywhere, to have ab solute control over Succor.

They were incapable of stopping Dalamud and Bahamut. Ramuh was killing the Shroud slowly and was not stopped. The Garleans have yet to be removed. 

The Elementals may be powerful, but they are not the gods that some posters and most Gridanians seem to believe.

RE: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - Unnamed Mercenary - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 02:32 PM)Intaki Wrote: Right, killing White Mages does accomplish the goal of "taking back" Succor but that's a little beside the point; by that logic anyone can "take back" Succor. The point remains that the Elementals have not been shown to have anything more than above average killing power and sheer numbers. 

They were incapable of stopping Dalamud and Bahamut. Ramah was killing the Shroud slowly and was not stopped. The Garleans have yet to be removed. 

The Elementals may be powerful, but they are not the gods that some posters and most Gridanians seem to believe.

Here's the thing.

Preflood: WHMs didn't need Elementals for Succor.

Postflood: Elementals pick and choose who they will let use Succor.

So....I guess -if- someone found a soulstone/reading material from before the flood AND somehow understood it AND somehow figured out how to cast it, there's your nefarious means WHM without Elemental consent. However, if a person somehow figured that all out, would they start prancing around the forest rubbing it in people's faces? Probably not. If anything, I think Gridanians would try to remove that person from the Shroud as soon as fucking possible because they don't want an Elemental getting pissed off at old contracts being skirted around.

RE: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - V'aleera - 06-09-2015

I think it would be more appropriate to say they pick and choose who to teach Succor to. Because as the history of the world itself shows once that knowledge leaves the Elementals proverbial lips it is beyond their control what gets done with it.

As far as I am aware the White Mages still learned from the Elementals in the old days. But unlike the Padjal they spread that knowledge far and wide.

RE: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - ArmachiA - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 02:32 PM)Intaki Wrote: The Elementals may be powerful, but they are not the gods that some posters and most Gridanians seem to believe.

I don't believe they are gods, but I do believe they have ultimate control over over the Succor and have proven to be violent and aggressive if their will is challenged. They are also powerful enough to scare mortals, dictate decisions of Mortals, and ultimately control the magic they protect. Are they resting on their laurels now that the Calamity happened? There's a good indication that they are since in 1.0 the Elementals were pretty terrifying and weren't afraid to show their power, but in 2.0 they've been mostly complaining about people on their lawn. They aren't gods, but that doesn't make them something people should ignore either.

I honestly just don't believe the Elementals wouldn't know if someone accessed the Succor without their permission. They have such tight control on it, it just doesn't make sense they wouldn't know. To me, it means they probably have ways to take it away. I guess I believe as the Gridanians do in that respect.

It's funny because this whole discussion could be IC and still make sense.

RE: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - FreelanceWizard - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 02:55 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: It's funny because this whole discussion could be IC and still make sense.

It really could! It's a sufficiently open question that it seems like an excellent opportunity for RP.

RE: Mage (WHM/BLM and the like!) Q/A - V'aleera - 06-09-2015

(06-09-2015, 02:55 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: I honestly just don't believe the Elementals wouldn't know if someone accessed the Succor without their permission. They have such tight control on it, it just doesn't make sense they wouldn't know.
"Would they know" is an interesting question. But "can they do anything about it other than throw a violent tantrum" appears to be largely answered by existing lore: no, they can't.

I'm certainly open to being proven wrong, but if the Elementals can just flip a switch and turn off the Succor at will, and if existing White Mages can not bring more mages into the fold, it calls into question all of the history and actions taken in regard to the subject.