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+--- Thread: So this is a thing now? (/showthread.php?tid=9261)
RE: So this is a thing now? - Berrod Armstrong - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 11:24 AM)C Wrote: Again, I've said before that I have no problem with someone selling a FC with house. The buyer is getting something directly from the seller in that case: An actual item is transferring hands, and it's no different than buying a sword or whatever.I understand where you're coming from with this entire thing, I really do.
What I'm talking about here is the practice of RPC members asking for other RPC members to pay for the privilege of being there when they relinquish the plot. The plot isn't being transferred from the seller to the buyer - the buyer still has to pay SE the full price for it. I think I've been pretty clear about that, so it's curious that you're bringing up the reddit community as a counterexample.
Though perhaps it's not so curious. Perhaps Reddit is the appropriate model for the RPC community.
What it really comes down to is this:
What you have a problem with/don't have a problem with/find questionable/don't see as acceptable or moral practice does not actually mean that something is good, bad, right or wrong. It's the way things work. Player A has a commodity, player B wants said commodity, player A names a price, player B pays the price.
The commodity in this case is the AVAILABILITY of the plot -- we're not even getting into the plot cost itself, because that has nothing to do with the transaction. The AVAILABILITY of a plot is a rare and valuable thing, and in that light some players have decided to assign it a monetary value. Other players have decided that this monetary value is worth it, and conduct business.
There's nothing iffy about that at all, long has it been the way things work. The transaction is completely voluntary on both ends and therefore not subject to any scrutiny on behalf of judging eyes. Â
Furthermore, the transaction is between the seller and the buyer on a case by case basis and has absolutely nothing to do with us as a community, even if every person on this site did it. To put it in layman's terms, "It's nobody's business and who is anyone to judge?"
If anyone decides to charge gil for something that does not violate the TOU, it is up to everyone else to decide whether it's worth paying for or not, and decide whether THEY want to pay for it. As an aside, if I have to pay someone for RP, I'd likely go somewhere else where the RP is free (just as someone would not buy the availability of a housing plot if others were available for free [that is, free availability, not free plot costs]!).Â
Is it an unfortunate thing? I don't think so, it's just the way it is, neither good nor ill. Whether it's something I/we should accept? Hey, player A and player B are conducting their private transaction! It's not my business or place to say.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Kellach Woods - 12-16-2014
Oh, FFXIV housing market. You were poorly designed from the get-go, and it's only made people miserable.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Kage - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 11:45 AM)Gegenji Wrote: I don't know what I'd do with a full house, really.Don't get a medium with the help of friends and think you can actually do a good job decorating. Seriously, need a house decorator.
If you need gil help lemme know.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Warren Castille - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 11:48 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote: Oh, FFXIV housing market. You were poorly designed from the get-go, and it's only made people miserable.
What a train wreck it's been, though! I can't look away.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Parvacake - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 11:46 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote:*gives all of her likes!*(12-16-2014, 11:24 AM)C Wrote: Again, I've said before that I have no problem with someone selling a FC with house. The buyer is getting something directly from the seller in that case: An actual item is transferring hands, and it's no different than buying a sword or whatever.Is it an unfortunate thing? I don't think so, it's just the way it is, neither good nor ill. Whether it's something I/we should accept? Hey, player A and player B are conducting their private transaction! It's not my business or place to say.
What I'm talking about here is the practice of RPC members asking for other RPC members to pay for the privilege of being there when they relinquish the plot. The plot isn't being transferred from the seller to the buyer - the buyer still has to pay SE the full price for it. I think I've been pretty clear about that, so it's curious that you're bringing up the reddit community as a counterexample.
Though perhaps it's not so curious. Perhaps Reddit is the appropriate model for the RPC community.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Kage - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 11:46 AM)Berrod Armstrong Wrote: Is it an unfortunate thing? I don't think so, it's just the way it is, neither good nor ill. Whether it's something I/we should accept? Hey, player A and player B are conducting their private transaction! It's not my business or place to say.I don't know if I'm just a poor communicator but this is what I think. Except I have decided to accept transactions but reject small plots for 7.5mil and the like. But that's my opinion that I won't tell a buyer or seller.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Warren Castille - 12-16-2014
I'm just going to remark here that I agree with C'kayah's intent: Anyone paying millions of gil to have the opportunity to then spend millions of gil is dumb and should feel dumb. I just don't care enough about what dumb people do with their money to infer that it's wrong.
Now people who undercut by 30%, THOSE people are wrong and should be crucified.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Melkire - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 12:24 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Now people who undercut by 30%, THOSE people are wrong and should be crucified.
If your goods are marked up by a ridiculous margin over the real market value (I'm loooing at you, glamour prisms) and I can still make a profit undercutting by 30% or more, you can be damned well sure that I'm gonna. Competition driving prices down is a good thing. Likewise for flipping goods that are selling below their RMV.
If it's real scumbag practices you're after, let's talk about how market manipulation can result in one greedy rich bigger buying up a commodity to clean out the marketboard only to mark them up upon relisting them (see: tier IV materia). Pure profit at the expense of consumers.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Parvacake - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 12:57 PM)Melkire Wrote:I've managed to stop some of those greedy bastards in the past. Sometimes however I can only salvage a few items before the rest are snatched up and sold at sometimes more then 300% ;<(12-16-2014, 12:24 PM)Warren Castille Wrote: Now people who undercut by 30%, THOSE people are wrong and should be crucified.
If your goods are marked up by a ridiculous margin over the real market value (I'm loooing at you, glamour prisms) and I can still make a profit undercutting by 30% or more, you can be damned well sure that I'm gonna. Competition driving prices down is a good thing. Likewise for flipping goods that are selling below their RMV.
If it's real scumbag practices you're after, let's talk about how market manipulation can result in one greedy rich bigger buying up a commodity to clean out the marketboard only to mark them up upon relisting them (see: tier IV materia). Pure profit at the expense of consumers.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Kage - 12-16-2014
Yep, I've seen marketboard players buy the undercut items and re-list them for -slight- undercut prices to still return profits.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Warren Castille - 12-16-2014
I was meaning to be tongue-in-cheek about that, but I've got a screenshot of blue fox hides plummeting 50% of their market price in TWELVE HOURS because the natural flow of prices should be this:
100k
100k
100k
99k
75k
70k
50k
49k
49,998
I'm 99% sure that's entirely the fault of quick ventures returning them and a mass of idiots getting them at once (because hey, that's 50k I didn't work for, what do I care if these only come from once-per-day maps at a low rate?) and listing them for "pure profit."
I'm all for competitive margins. I'm staunchly against crashing something through the basement just because. I would also think we're all in agreement that market fixing is messed up, too. I've only done it once before, an even then I'm not sure it counts: Someone delisted two stacks of ore and dropped them again from 100~gil each to 40 gil each. I snatched them up quick before mouthbreathers thought it was a "trend."
We hate what we are, after all.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Edvyn - 12-16-2014
money is money do you what you gotta do to get that $$$
RE: So this is a thing now? - Flickering Ember - 12-16-2014
(12-15-2014, 04:21 PM)ArmachiA Wrote: Back in beta they talked about letting people sell their property. I honestly wonder what made them change their mind on that.
In game economics. If players buy and sell things to NPCs, that is money leaving the game, aka a money sink. The more money sinks in the game, the less horrifying currency inflation becomes. If I had to guess, selling between players is probably disallowed due to the potential horrific levels of inflation. This thread is kinda proving that would happen anyway. Since there are very few land spaces and extremely high demand, players would be selling even small houses for outrageous prices, far more than the current 5 million standard.
It's probably actually cheaper in the long run to not allow player to play house selling.
-------------------------------
Alright, as someone who has mostly just been observing this thread, I would like to hop in and say that I don't understand what you guys are arguing about. I see a lot of regulars in here, pretty much all of you all typically make reasonable and level-headed posts. I guess you guys don't realize it but it sounds like you all pretty much agree with each other.
Ckayah is saying that he agrees that there is nothing wrong with people following the path of economics but is expressing regret in that he wishes the community would be charitable. I think we can all agree that charity and generosity is a good thing we might like to see more of. But we also understand that it is not always practical and that choosing not to be charitable doesn't make you a bad person.
Charity is never required. I certainly don't think Ckayah is saying that. There are, however, some hidden benefits to being charitable that I don't think have been brought up or considered yet in this thread. The honest truth is that every time you relinquish your property to a non-RPer, you are creating less spaces for other RPers. It is true that we are not an official RP server and we co-exist with non-RPers who may also be our friends. But I think it is worth considering that we are a niche that is dependent on others in our community to survive. The more diluted we become, the less cohesive our community becomes.
To give a plot up is a charitable act, one that has strong parallels with how charity works in real life. We aren't obligated to donate to wikipedia, or red cross, or any other organization. We aren't required to recycle or use resuable bags. We aren't required to adopt children as opposed to passing down our own genetics whenever we start a family. Not doing these things doesn't make you a bad person. However, somewhere somebody is donated to wikipedia to help keep it running, someone is seriously choosing to recycle and cut down on the world's waste, someone is opting to adopt a child that needs a home instead of contributing to a now over-populated world. These organizations and people depend on others willing to donate for their survival.
Every time someone holds a server event, they are contributing the community of this server, every time someone decides to RP with a stranger instead of going to their guilds or friends they are contributing to the community, and yes, every time someone relinquishes a plot for someone else, they are also contributing to that community.
We're all here to have fun. You need to do what is best for you. But I think we should also stop to appreciate the people who make sacrifices for the betterment of others. No one requires you to be charitable but when you do, you are helping Balmung become a better place.
RE: So this is a thing now? - Melkire - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 01:42 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: Alright, as someone who has mostly just been observing this thread, I would like to hop in and say that I don't understand what you guys are arguing about. I see a lot of regulars in here, pretty much all of you all typically make reasonable and level-headed posts. I guess you guys don't realize it but it sounds like you all pretty much agree with each other.
Arguing? I thought we were having a discussion. o_O
Does every thread have to be a debate where two parties exchange volleys of arguments across a demarcated line?
RE: So this is a thing now? - Warren Castille - 12-16-2014
(12-16-2014, 01:50 PM)Melkire Wrote:(12-16-2014, 01:42 PM)Flickering Ember Wrote: Alright, as someone who has mostly just been observing this thread, I would like to hop in and say that I don't understand what you guys are arguing about. I see a lot of regulars in here, pretty much all of you all typically make reasonable and level-headed posts. I guess you guys don't realize it but it sounds like you all pretty much agree with each other.
Arguing? I thought we were having a discussion. o_O
Does every thread have to be a debate where two parties exchange volleys of arguments across a demarcated line?
YES. IDIOT.