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+--- Thread: Lore Reasons:White Mage? (/showthread.php?tid=10545)
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Cato - 03-16-2015
I'm definitely in the 'plausibility' camp.
I'm happy to roll with a great many things provided it doesn't lead to having to bend the lore to a significant extent in order to make something work. As great as FFXIV is there isn't as much established lore for the playable races as there is for the playable races in the likes of WoW and ESO.
So filling in the gaps from time to time is arguably a necessity.
That doesn't give people a free pass to do whatever they want with absolutely no criticism sent their way however.
As for 'tone policing' I don't really want to go down that particular route. At least not there. Maybe a separate thread would be better for that.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Sounsyy - 03-16-2015
(03-16-2015, 02:56 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: Sounssy has a reputation for being very kind
Thanks Armi, but I'm about to completely dash this reputation cuz this thread has really chafed me to no end.
(03-11-2015, 08:16 PM)Heart Quintessence Wrote: So I was reading else where and someone made it sound like White Mages were supposed to be super rare/anomolies or 'special'.. Maybe I am confusing things or getting wires crossed.
But what's the Lore behind White Mages? As part of my character's history, her parents were part of a Miqo'te group of Moon Keepers who went to the Battle of Cartenau to aid any who needed it, it didn't exactly mater the side, death was everywhere in a wore and easing the passing of those who weren't going to make it, or save some lives...
 Anyway, I get the sense that White Magic is manipulation of Aether, but reading ina few other places ( I think it was between here and Reddit), that the people using White Magic is sort of weird an tied into the Storyline of ARR?
Can someone Clarify (I know I should just jump on a server and play, but I wanna have a little knowledge.
For those who have forgotten, or didn't bother to check on their way in, this is the OP. Please note how the thread title "Lore Reasons: White Mage?" as well as the questions asked in the OP revolve around lore and lore reasons and lore explanations for the White Mage job. Please also note how nowhere in this OP does she ask for players opinions on semantics or the value of "discussion." She asks folks to clarify... not muddle.
So why then has the last seven pages of this discussion been filled with quibbling over impertinent junk? The argument moved from
"You should not RP WHM because... / Well I think you can RP WHM because..."
to
"I feel as though I am being attacked for my opinion therefore I must defend my stance at all cost / You really shouldn't read into tone."
Neither of which are truly on topic, but the latter is so far removed that this thread has since gone from being a somewhat useful WHM thread four days running to a cluster of just useless bickering over an off-topic discussion and a bunch of aggressive snaps back at each other in the span of several hours. If you all want to discuss lore, be my guest, but you all aren't discussing lore. You're discussing discussion - which belongs in this thread. Hell, I haven't seen a post with actual lore in it in several pages now. I think I posted one in here earlier, but it's gonna be pretty difficult for the OP to find cuz it's buried in a bunch of fluff, which brings me to my point. If a post with lore on it - if any post with lore on it (doesn't have to be mine) is difficult to find in a thread asking for lore help...............
Here's how many posts contained the words white mage, succor, or Elemental at least once in the last 80 posts:
White Mage - 22
Succor - 4
Elemental - 3
Hmm...
But I've said my piece, and feel like I've made my lore contribution to this thread. If someone has lore questions they can PM me. Enjoy your discussion on whether or not some post someone made was aggressive or not.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Gone. - 03-16-2015
Forum threads naturally veer in differing directions the longer they get. Unfortunately, this one went way off the rails in the worst way possible though I'd debate on-topicness depending on the context of x or y post. Some have tried to get back to the question of "You should not RP WHM because... / Well I think you can RP WHM because..." but there's only so much you can do with gratuitous shitposting (which it already is in the first place by definition alone) at every corner.
(03-16-2015, 03:29 AM)ArmachiA Wrote: Nah thats perfectly civil.
I thought it was perfectly civil, or at the least reasonable. I'm not going to beat around the bush about what I see or feel is happening, but like I said: it's possible you make use of your ignore list so *shrug*. I know I don't, though I probably should now.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Warren Castille - 03-16-2015
Sounsy (as usual) has the right of it; The OP asked for clarification as to why a thing is a thing, not how the thing is a thing. All of the arguing ensued from a tangent regarding if it was okay to be super special someone who deviates from the currently-accepted lore.
As a tangent to that, I use the term "currently-accepted" to refer to the general understanding or agreement amongst the various circles, cliques and communities that make up the greater RPC community. To reiterate something, again, though: White Mage is a title given to those acknowledged by the Elementals and the Padjal as protectors of the Shroud and the pure of heart. If you aren't interested in playing that specific role, you shouldn't worry about becoming a White Mage. Similar to a capital-P Paladin, it denotes a title and a role, not a skillset.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Kellach Woods - 03-16-2015
(03-16-2015, 02:01 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: [SUPERMASSIVE LORE DUMP SKIPPED BECAUSE WHILE INFORMATIVE I HAVE NO FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS RELATED TO IT]If the Fae are closely related to the Elementals... I see what you did there with the level 35 SCH spell.
Ancient Nymian Scholars used Arcanima and envoked Succor through their Fae companions. In the recent Las Vegas Lore Panel, it was announced that the Fae are closely related to the Elementals, but are a lesser elemental. Furthormore, after the War of the Magi and the resulting Umbral Calamity, Nym fell victim to a plague which warped their bodies and struck from them their ability to commune with their fairy companions, effectively disconnecting them from their succor. So... in a way... something very similar happened. The ruins of Nym were eventually swallowed beneath volcanic sand and the waters of Bronze Lake. It wasn't until the Calamity that shattered the island that a piece of Vylbrand broke away, revealing the ruins beneath the lake.
As for why cover Amdapor... probably in case some nefarious entity attempted to control succor using "deviant" or "nefarious" means... /cough. But quote in spoiler above answers that also.
So we suppose that the Elementals were more about protecting quick access to the ability (which would indeed only be in Amdapor) rather than the knowledge it exists. Interesting.
Although, other than Holy, most of the other abilities could technically be hidden under the guise of very potent conjury - Same with the responsibilities of healing the planet itself. Too few would know the difference, and unless used for nefarious means (harm the planet instead of heal) it wouldn't seem like the Elementals would mind that much considering that loredump.
Still - interesting.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Warren Castille - 03-16-2015
(03-16-2015, 07:41 AM)Kellach Woods Wrote:(03-16-2015, 02:01 AM)Sounsyy Wrote: [SUPERMASSIVE LORE DUMP SKIPPED BECAUSE WHILE INFORMATIVE I HAVE NO FOLLOW UP QUESTIONS RELATED TO IT]If the Fae are closely related to the Elementals...
Ancient Nymian Scholars used Arcanima and envoked Succor through their Fae companions. In the recent Las Vegas Lore Panel, it was announced that the Fae are closely related to the Elementals, but are a lesser elemental. Furthormore, after the War of the Magi and the resulting Umbral Calamity, Nym fell victim to a plague which warped their bodies and struck from them their ability to commune with their fairy companions, effectively disconnecting them from their succor. So... in a way... something very similar happened. The ruins of Nym were eventually swallowed beneath volcanic sand and the waters of Bronze Lake. It wasn't until the Calamity that shattered the island that a piece of Vylbrand broke away, revealing the ruins beneath the lake.
As for why cover Amdapor... probably in case some nefarious entity attempted to control succor using "deviant" or "nefarious" means... /cough. But quote in spoiler above answers that also.
SQUARE-ENIX YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARDS.
So we suppose that the Elementals were more about protecting the access to the ability (which would indeed only be in Amdapor) rather than the knowledge it exists. Interesting.
Although, other than Holy, most of the other abilities could technically be hidden under the guise of very potent conjury - Same with the responsibilities of healing the planet itself.
Eighty or ninety years ago in internet time, this came up in one of the other threads about WHM RP. To most any adventurer, there'd be little difference in what healing felt like. It would be plenty possible for someone who DOES have access to Succor to wield it without anyone knowing.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Kellach Woods - 03-16-2015
Just don't wield it in Gridania or South Shroud and you're essentially gravy (aka areas where there's Padjals who actually know wtf they're doing abound).
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Aduu Avagnar - 03-16-2015
Quote:Bayhone: Has there been a slow and controlled revival regarding the use of white magic, in the training of adventurers of white magic, or is 'The Player Character' the one and only White Mage trained outside of the Padjal?
Fernewhales: Actually, this is a really good question as it ties into the Warrior of Light theme as well, cause you think there are 2.5 million Warriors of Light out there. This is one of those story things that you kind of have to look past. If everyone was the warrior of light then no one gets to have that sense of being the hero. So even though you're playing with all of these people who think they're the Warrior of Light, only you are the Warrior of Light. I meant you. No I meant you. But there is only one, there is only supposed to be one. It's the same thing here as well, though there are a lot of White Mages out there, story wise, it's supposed to be you, you're the one that was chosen to do this. You're the one that's getting this training from the Padjal What I was told to say by [name I didn't catch] is that there are also other ways of getting white magic as well. They did the revival right, because it's the fallen city of Amdapor, and they had their White Mages and they're reviving that Magic, there are other groups trying to revive their White Magic using more nefarious means and that these people might show up in a future patch
Ok this is pretty much a word for word transcript of the response given by Ferne at the Las Vegas Fan Fest Lore panel (I took out the asides and uhms and ahs.). I will be pulling answers from this.
Quote:though there are a lot of White Mages out there, story wise, it's supposed to be you, you're the one that was chosen to do this. You're the one that's getting this training from the PadjalOnly the One player character is supposed to be A Non-Padjal White Mage. Only they were chosen to receive their training from them. They have taught no one else.
Quote:They did the revival right, because it's the fallen city of Amdapor, and they had their White Mages and they're reviving that MagicThey in this instances references the question asked, which was about the Padjal, so the revival is seemingly the One Player Character (see the point above.)
Quote:there are other groups trying to revive their White Magic using more nefarious means and that these people might show up in a future patchOther than Amdapoor, or the Padjal, there are indeed other groups trying to get White Magic, whether for themselves, or to simply cause chaos for the realm, we don't know, but the ways of getting it are nefarious.
So essentially, unless you found a Soul Stone in Amdapoor, or you have used nefarious means, it is outside of the lore. Note however, that outside of the lore does not mean Don't do this, or you can't do this, it does mean that there is no official cannon to support it. It becomes Grey Area that could very well have to be retconned by future reveals.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Alothia - 03-16-2015
Pruned this thread to keep it back on track. I think it's a good thread to have around, and the discussion of lore here is valuable. The parts that aren't so valuable, I've tried to remove. I may have missed some, and if so, pardon me. Â Note, we are watching this thread, and we'd hate to close it, so please keep it on topic. Thanks guys!
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Kurt S. - 03-16-2015
Okay so maybe I ended up skimming part of this thread (read: a lot of it) because of the arguments that didn't seem to clarify jack.
Now what I did notice were 'nefarious means' and 'attaining White Magic for 'x' cause.' It's been thrown around a couple of times near as I can tell. And it's kind of piqued my curiosity as to what these 'Nefarious means' could possibly be. I didn't (probably mostly due to my skimming) see anything relatively conclusive as to what these 'nefarious means' might be.Â
Now, I'm also aware that there probably won't be anything conclusive about it until the lore team says something.Still, what could be a possible 'nefarious method' to obtain white magic that's pretty much well within acceptable standards?
I'm also 80% this question pertains to the topic at hand. Seeing as it is a question that involves the 'how to be a white mage' bit which in turn might help Heart over there find some way to maybe, just maybe squeeze some sort of progression to being a WHM. Or it could possibly backfire in the most horrible way.
*Disclaimer: I am so very sorry if this would spark another argument, but curiosity asks that I ask. 50/50 the whole point of this thread sailed over my head again. Feel free to tear this post down if that's the case. *
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Warren Castille - 03-16-2015
(03-16-2015, 09:11 AM)Ice Cream Sandwich Wrote: Still, what could be a possible 'nefarious method' to obtain white magic that's pretty much well within acceptable standards?
This sort of detail hasn't been revealed to us yet! It might be coming in a future patch, though given how many questions we have about White Magic in general I'd be surprised if it wasn't sooner rather than later.
The actual "nefarious" means could be a couple of things. We know it's gifted to us from the Elementals, maybe - We only have the Padjals to trust in when it comes to that. There might be a way of "reaching" the magic without consent of the elementals or the Padjals.
In addition, we know that Ampadori White Mages were, well, white mages. There's a whole keep that's full of - oh wait, enterprising adventurers cleared that out of cultist presence, twice. There's also a city that has been uncovered, but it's full of dangerous- oh wait, adventurers cleared all of that out, too. Most of the danger of folks exploring has been alleviated by us do-gooders doing good, so those who might have shadier plans can follow in our wake and find what might have been lost for the ages otherwise.
Maybe they're rending the knowledge or "permission" from the soul stones? Maybe the Ampadori found a way to reach and draw on Succor without the Elementals knowing? Perhaps that revelation was the reason the elementals drowned the realm? We know the War of the Magi reached a stunning and brutal conclusion that resulted in the Elementals intervening, what if they were just doing it because, without a check on the use of Succor, the White Mages risked killing the world just as readily as their Black Mage counterparts?
tl;dr:We don't know, but there's plenty of theory.
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Aduu Avagnar - 03-16-2015
I still believe it could be just as simple as how the Blood Elves gained the powers of Light from the Na'aru in WoW.
They somehow have a captive Elemental and somehow forced it to bestow upon some of them the ability to perform White Magic XD
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Gegenji - 03-16-2015
(03-16-2015, 09:38 AM)Nako Wrote: I still believe it could be just as simple as how the Blood Elves gained the powers of Light from the Na'aru in WoW.
They somehow have a captive Elemental and somehow forced it to bestow upon some of them the ability to perform White Magic XD
There's plenty of corrupted elementals you have to deal with in the CNJ storyline and such. Maybe one could purposely corrupt an elemental of appropriate power and somehow get it to bestow Succor?
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Kurt S. - 03-16-2015
(03-16-2015, 09:20 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:(03-16-2015, 09:11 AM)Ice Cream Sandwich Wrote: Still, what could be a possible 'nefarious method' to obtain white magic that's pretty much well within acceptable standards?
tl;dr:We don't know, but there's plenty of theory.
Which is a kinda like the point of my question and post. What theory could be possibly within acceptable standards? Or lets narrow it down and say 'standards that sounsyy would approve of' given her research into finding alternative methods of acquiring white ma-....
Right, lore reasons, we're trying to clarify things. Sorry. The point of the thread flew over my head again didn't it?
RE: Lore Reasons:White Mage? - Warren Castille - 03-16-2015
(03-16-2015, 09:45 AM)Ice Cream Sandwich Wrote:(03-16-2015, 09:20 AM)Warren Castille Wrote:(03-16-2015, 09:11 AM)Ice Cream Sandwich Wrote: Still, what could be a possible 'nefarious method' to obtain white magic that's pretty much well within acceptable standards?
tl;dr:We don't know, but there's plenty of theory.
Which is a kinda like the point of my question and post. What theory could be possibly within acceptable standards? Or lets narrow it down and say 'standards that sounsyy would approve of' given her research into finding alternative methods of acquiring white ma-....
Right, lore reasons, we're trying to clarify things. Sorry. The point of the thread flew over my head again didn't it?
Until SE tells us specifically what their official alternative method is, anything you come up with is as-vested as anything I come up with. That's the trick about grey areas.